Optical Network Configurations

[audiom3]

6 minutes ago, jabbr said:

If you are dealing with copper outputs/networks … there is no reason to think that inexpensive … or any … 10G switches have low common mode noise and SQ can be affected by that … essentially fancy ground loops. 
 

I have done exactly zero testing of 10G switches output using copper to endpoints 

I am aware of that now. I had to experiment to figure it out. That's why I'm using a 1471 in my switch and a 1318 in my Lumin. 

[audiobomber]

27 minutes ago, jabbr said:

You don’t need to use the same SFP(+) module in the switch and endpoint 

As long as the wavelength is the same?

[jabbr]

31 minutes ago, audiom3 said:

I am aware of that now. I had to experiment to figure it out. That's why I'm using a 1471 in my switch and a 1318 in my Lumin. 

 

Thats great. The actual reason that I started using the 1471 was that it was on the Intel NIC compatibility list and one of 2 OEMs for Intel. The first Intel branded SFP+ module I purchased was Finisar. At the time I had a Brocade VDX 10G switch and it only accepted Brocade branded SFP+ modules. Brocade was aquired by Broadcom which was then acquired/merged with Avago the other major SFP+ OEM.

 

In the old days and still with lots of equipment you had to use a branded SFP+ module which each brand of equipment and the modules have a code. Nowadays fs.com can supply coded OEM modules but if you try to use a ... for example ... Cisco coded SFP module in a Brocade switch it just won't work even if the SFP modules are electrically the same. Hence look at the compatibility list of whatever equipment you are using.

 

I have no idea where Mellanox gets its (Q)SFP modules from but I try to use those with my mellanox switches and NICs.

 

For endpoints I do try to use Finisar

[jabbr]

11 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

As long as the wavelength is the same?

 

Yes yes, SR with SR and LR with LR and any of the variations of these need to be matched at each end. I avoid the ER and ZR modules

[SQFIRST]

12 hours ago, jabbr said:

Its entirely unclear to me that the endpoints need to handle 10G ethernet given the assumption that the switch device which is capable of 10G would presumably perform in a similar fashion when operating at 1G

 

@jabbr I really appreciate your efforts to right track information. I am not questioning ethernet standards and have no confusion with that. Just need some clarity on the theory in practice.

 

My actual usage experience with the Mikrotik CRS305, which is central in my network, is not following the assumption that you have mentioned. There is a clear difference when the switch is connecting at 10G end to end vs. when connecting at 1G. This difference is only based on my hearing the output from audio setup and not by any other measurement. To be clear, the CRS305 does not appear to be performing in the similar fashion at 1G as with 10G. In my experience so far, unless the connection is running with both of the ends operating at 10G, the benefit is not present in the audio in my chain. 
 

[jabbr]

20 minutes ago, SQFIRST said:

 

@jabbr I really appreciate your efforts to right track information. I am not questioning ethernet standards and have no confusion with that. Just need some clarity on the theory in practice.

 

My actual usage experience with the Mikrotik CRS305, which is central in my network, is not following the assumption that you have mentioned. There is a clear difference when the switch is connecting at 10G end to end vs. when connecting at 1G. This difference is only based on my hearing the output from audio setup and not by any other measurement. To be clear, the CRS305 does not appear to be performing in the similar fashion at 1G as with 10G. In my experience so far, unless the connection is running with both of the ends operating at 10G, the benefit is not present in the audio in my chain. 
 

 

Ok I understand and indeed since the compliance testing is done at 10G I am indeed assuming that the output at 1G would have similar performance ...  but not necessarily 

 

Your system may be more complicated than mine in some sense. My fiber goes directly to my fiberoptic endpoint at 1G and from the endpoint to the DAC over USB. I have made 10G endpoints i.e. a PC but really like these low powered ARM devices as NAA.

 

If you are using a fiberoptic Lumin at 1G how does the switch connect at 10G? 

 

Really its the last connection to endpoint which I feel is most important and if this comes from a 10G switch then I'm assured that any upstream jitter doesn't pass ... and has been tested not to pass

 

I mean if these SFP modules and power supplies and etc etc are so important, why not set up the network correctly in the first place?

[SQFIRST]

27 minutes ago, jabbr said:

If you are using a fiberoptic Lumin at 1G how does the switch connect at 10G? 

 

Really its the last connection to endpoint which I feel is most important

This is exactly what it comes down to and it would be great if the CRS305 handled 1G as it does 10G but that is not the case. The option to connect 1G optical from the switch to the Lumin is good but in my case, I get better performance using the EtherRegen as the final 1G device.

 

My endpoint setup is simple as there is only network input terminating at the DAC (X1). It is a different experience from using USB to DAC.

[jabbr]

22 minutes ago, SQFIRST said:

This is exactly what it comes down to and it would be great if the CRS305 handled 1G as it does 10G but that is not the case. The option to connect 1G optical from the switch to the Lumin is good but in my case, I get better performance using the EtherRegen as the final 1G device.

 

My endpoint setup is simple as there is only network input terminating at the DAC (X1). It is a different experience from using USB to DAC.

The Solid-Run CN9132 Base is the only 10G fanless / low powered endpoint that I am aware of. Of course this endpoint would use USB output.

 

I might test this with a fiberoptic USB cable but frankly Im not sure I could tell the difference between this and my A388 device... I might need to upgrade my DAC to something that can handle DSD1024/DSD2048 or  more channels etc

[SQFIRST]

I suspect your mellanox or the 100g devices you have in place offers a high level of compliance where you do not see the similar issues that us mere mortals have been reporting. If you really want to test things you may end up working backwards a bit :)

[jabbr]

24 minutes ago, SQFIRST said:

I suspect your mellanox or the 100g devices you have in place offers a high level of compliance where you do not see the similar issues that us mere mortals have been reporting. If you really want to test things you may end up working backwards a bit :)

 

No, I just try to keep things simple because my brain gets totally fried trying to listen to too many combinations of widgets, cables, power supplies etc. I've been through upgrade hell many times. 

 

I actually realized that I've had a CN9132 Base for a year that I haven't had the time to look at.  🥺 When you have to connect and disconnect devices from the network and redirect where everything goes I find it hard to A/B test.  On top of that the HQPlayer settings demonstrate real SQ changes... I think I'd honestly need to upgrade my DAC in order to hear very subtle differences in anything else at this point e.g. something like the Holo May

 

My goal is to make the network entirely invisible

[Jud]

9 hours ago, Superdad said:

But why go multimode instaed of single-mode when the two are close to price parity?

 

When (if) ever Comcast gets around to bringing fiber to the home here, I checked and they're multimode. So I decided when building the house to have everything done multimode to avoid any possible incompatibility. That's what the entire network is now. So I'm just accustomed to looking at multimode.

 

Any problem at all with making the final connection from switch to UPnP/NAA endpoint single mode?

[jabbr]

9 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

When (if) ever Comcast gets around to bringing fiber to the home here, I checked and they're multimode. So I decided when building the house to have everything done multimode to avoid any possible incompatibility. That's what the entire network is now. So I'm just accustomed to looking at multimode.

 

Any problem at all with making the final connection from switch to UPnP/NAA endpoint single mode?

You are highly unlikely to ever want more than more than 25G to 100m so multimode is fine. There is zero problem either taking multimode in from the street or from your house on a switch and then combining with singlemode out ... you can also go to your NAA endpoint in multimode without loss of signal quality. I standardized on singlemode in my walls because singlemode scales up to 100g and beyond. Multimode cables for 100G are ridiculously complex and expensive.

 

If you can hear the difference between a single and multimode fiber cable you have the ears of a nubile fairy!

[Jud]

7 minutes ago, jabbr said:

you have the ears of a nubile fairy!

 

[taipan254]

5 hours ago, jabbr said:

Ok I understand and indeed since the compliance testing is done at 10G I am indeed assuming that the output at 1G would have similar performance ...  but not necessarily

 

4 hours ago, SQFIRST said:

This is exactly what it comes down to and it would be great if the CRS305 handled 1G as it does 10G but that is not the case. The option to connect 1G optical from the switch to the Lumin is good but in my case, I get better performance using the EtherRegen as the final 1G device.

 

Sorry for jumping in here, but I am seeking a point of clarification as I think about my own network evolution. From earlier in this thread, I was under the impression that at least one of the connections had to be at 10G for the benefits of 10G to be realized. For example, I was under the impression the below scenarios would perform identically (let's call this "Impression 1"):

 

Internet ->1G Copper-> MicroTik Router ->10G Copper -> Music Server ->1G Optical-> Moated End Point -> USB-> Moated DAC

Internet ->1G Copper-> MicroTik Router ->10G Optical -> Music Server ->10G Optical-> Moated End Point -> USB-> Moated DAC

Internet ->1G Copper-> MicroTik Router ->1G Copper -> Music Server ->10G Optical-> Moated End Point -> USB-> Moated DAC

 

All provide a moat / isolation for the end point. All incorporate 10G (copper or optical; 1G or 10G optical always at endpoint).

 

Now I think I'm interpreting the conversation as "As long as you have a 10G router, even if you have everything on it running at 1G, you will still get the benefits of the 10G specification" (let's call this "Impression 2"). 

 

Is Impression 1 right or wrong? Is Impression 2 right or wrong? 

 

I'm just here to iron out any confusion I'm having. The router and endpoint upgrades are next on my to-do list.

 

 

[jabbr]

19 minutes ago, taipan254 said:

 

 

Sorry for jumping in here, but I am seeking a point of clarification as I think about my own network evolution. From earlier in this thread, I was under the impression that at least one of the connections had to be at 10G for the benefits of 10G to be realized. For example, I was under the impression the below scenarios would perform identically (let's call this "Impression 1"):

 

Internet ->1G Copper-> MicroTik Router ->10G Copper -> Music Server ->1G Optical-> Moated End Point -> USB-> Moated DAC

Internet ->1G Copper-> MicroTik Router ->10G Optical -> Music Server ->10G Optical-> Moated End Point -> USB-> Moated DAC

Internet ->1G Copper-> MicroTik Router ->1G Copper -> Music Server ->10G Optical-> Moated End Point -> USB-> Moated DAC

 

All provide a moat / isolation for the end point. All incorporate 10G (copper or optical; 1G or 10G optical always at endpoint).

 

Now I think I'm interpreting the conversation as "As long as you have a 10G router, even if you have everything on it running at 1G, you will still get the benefits of the 10G specification" (let's call this "Impression 2"). 

 

Is Impression 1 right or wrong? Is Impression 2 right or wrong? 

 

I'm just here to iron out any confusion I'm having. The router and endpoint upgrades are next on my to-do list.

 

 

 

I don't think either assumption is necessarily true.

If the Music Server is connected by fiberoptic with the switch at 10G then upstream noise (from the internet and server ) is blocked.

If the switch is connected to the endpoint by fiber then common mode noise from the switch is blocked.

[SQFIRST]

38 minutes ago, taipan254 said:

Is Impression 1 right or wrong? Is Impression 2 right or wrong? 

@taipan254  Yes :)

 

I can share what I have tried and from that limited scope:

 

For 'Impression 1' I will expect you to be getting the 10G benefits (assuming it is an end to end 10G connection) and will add that moving the 10G connection closest to endpoint should provide maximum benefit, since any device in the path can add some of it's own jitter.

 

I was never in the 'Impression 2' camp but that is the earlier comment from @jabbr stating as should happen which I have recently responded to. In practice I have not seen 10G benefits from using a singular 10G device. That is, reap benefit of 10G standards from using just one 10G device. For my experiments it has been primarily the Mikrotik CRS305 as a switch. So what I can conclude is that either the theory as @jabbr states does not hold up (jabbr is usually thorough and accurate) or this particular model is not fully compliant.
There is no new impact with this information other than it reiterates why I needed to further treat the final 1G connection after the 10G, as per my preference. 

 

I suppose it depends on what you are using and how you can test to discern the benefit.

[dbastin]

8 hours ago, taipan254 said:

Sorry for jumping in here, but I am seeking a point of clarification as I think about my own network evolution. From earlier in this thread, I was under the impression that at least one of the connections had to be at 10G for the benefits of 10G to be realized. For example, I was under the impression the below scenarios would perform identically (let's call this "Impression 1"):

 

Internet ->1G Copper-> MicroTik Router ->10G Copper -> Music Server ->1G Optical-> Moated End Point -> USB-> Moated DAC

Internet ->1G Copper-> MicroTik Router ->10G Optical -> Music Server ->10G Optical-> Moated End Point -> USB-> Moated DAC

Internet ->1G Copper-> MicroTik Router ->1G Copper -> Music Server ->10G Optical-> Moated End Point -> USB-> Moated DAC

 

All provide a moat / isolation for the end point. All incorporate 10G (copper or optical; 1G or 10G optical always at endpoint).

 

Now I think I'm interpreting the conversation as "As long as you have a 10G router, even if you have everything on it running at 1G, you will still get the benefits of the 10G specification" (let's call this "Impression 2"). 

 

Is Impression 1 right or wrong? Is Impression 2 right or wrong? 

 

I'm just here to iron out any confusion I'm having. The router and endpoint upgrades are next on my to-do list.

I'd say its  not one or the other, both 'impressions' would contribute.  I have not tried 10G connections (SFP+ with SM fibre.)  What I did do is replace Ubiquiti Edge Router X SFP with CRS 305 (configured as router) and it certainly provided a notable improvement.

 

In my experience is it seems each device and connection contributes an 'impact' that can be passed on through 10G, fibre, wifi, common mode filters and EtherRegen Moat.  It is not necessarily the noise being passed on, the impact of the noise seems to be.  So my aim is to optimise each device and connection ... I replace each with the lowest noise/jitter (ie. best advantage for SQ) device that can replace it that I can afford.  I aim for cost effectiveness and sometimes that does not equate to highest cost.

 

In your scenarios I am curious:

1. what Mikrotik router you use

2. what is the MOAT for the endpoint and DAC.

 

8 hours ago, jabbr said:

If the Music Server is connected by fiberoptic with the switch at 10G then upstream noise (from the internet and server ) is blocked.

If the switch is connected to the endpoint by fiber then common mode noise from the switch is blocked.

I think this assumes all noise (and possibly the impacts of it) can be blocked by fibre or the 10G spec.  I'm not sure that is the case.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

I think this assumes all noise (and possibly the impacts of it) can be blocked by fibre or the 10G spec.  I'm not sure that is the case.

There are actual measurements. Upstream noise isn’t transmitted. Whatever SQ differences you hear are not via the Ethernet stream transmitted along 10G+ fiber and most certainly not at 100G.

 

what you hear is via a different mechanism and there are several possibilities. some of the possibilities are electrical. 

[jabbr]

10 hours ago, SQFIRST said:

So what I can conclude is that either the theory as @jabbr states does not hold up (jabbr is usually thorough and accurate) or this particular model is not fully compliant.

To be clear it’s not a theory, the specification mandates compliance testing whereby noise is injected into the upstream signal and the noise needs to be eliminated by the receiver. 
 

true a model might not have been rigorously tested — none of the 1G Ethernet devices need have this testing done 

[taipan254]

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

In your scenarios I am curious:

1. what Mikrotik router you use

2. what is the MOAT for the endpoint and DAC.

 

1. I am not using one (yet); I've read this thread with great interest for awhile and am likely to go down the 10G path. MicroTik appears the most cost effective way to do so. 

 

2. Network moat would be 10G optical. For power, I use a Bluetti AC180 battery / inverter combo, so I have nothing coming from mains. The endpoint (UltraRendu right now), preamp, and DAC, and headphone amp are all powered off of the Bluetti or other batteries. 

 

The idea would be to have an "island" where network enters via fiber, and all power is sourced from batteries or the Bluetti battery / inverter combo.

 

I appreciate everyone's thoughts! Thanks!

[dbastin]

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

There are actual measurements. Upstream noise isn’t transmitted. Whatever SQ differences you hear are not via the Ethernet stream transmitted along 10G+ fiber and most certainly not at 100G.

 

what you hear is via a different mechanism and there are several possibilities. some of the possibilities are electrical. 

 

I appreciate you are passionate about the specs and measurements and I would not have adopted 10G if it weren't for this.  You may be right that I am not hearing 'noise' (or whatever) transmitted by the network, but it is hard to believe.

 

As recently mentioned, my network is:

incoming fibre > mandatory receiver/modem > cable > CRS 305 > fibre > ER Side A

then Side A > CX

and [MOAT] Side B > cable > WAP > - wifi - Devialet Pro

 

I can make a change at the mandatory receiver/modem (passive or physically connected to it) and I can hear a difference ... and this is despite:

• it being powered on a separate AC circuit to the CX, ER and endpoint
• it is on a different floor of the premises
• the ethernet 'signal' passes through 10G CRS 305, fibre, EtherRegen Moat and finally wifi
• the WAP is powered by battery
• for noise to transmit from the EtherRegen to the endpoint (ie. bypass the Moat and wifi) it would need to get through 2 excellent power conditioners

I am close to implementing a number of batteries, each ethernet device will have its own battery (off grid, no connection between them, no power supply or AC cord noise, only noise potentially via DC cable) and perhaps also the Antipodes CX.  I will even be isolating the battery chargers from the DC supply when listening to the hifi.

 

I would be interested to hear what other possibilities are so I can address those.

3 hours ago, taipan254 said:

For power, I use a Bluetti AC180 battery / inverter combo, ...

 

The idea would be to have an "island" where network enters via fiber, and all power is sourced from batteries or the Bluetti battery / inverter combo.

 

Be mindful the inverter, BMS etc may generate noise (I'd guess a lot less the AC grid).  I am going 12v battery > DC-DC regulator (if required) > 12v device.  The DC-DC regulators are from https://mp-audio.nl/

 

I am not yet sure if inverters can deliver current fast enough for power amps, but that is another topic.

[Jud]

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

Be mindful the inverter, BMS etc may generate noise (I'd guess a lot less the AC grid)

 

This is the problem with guessing. I researched inverters when having my home built a few years ago. There wasn't a single one that exceeded the requirements the power utility was required to meet for power supplied to my home, and the vast majority were worse. Keeping the audio system inside the home off the same circuits devoted to in-house noisemakers like refrigerators, A/C systems, LED lights, even appliances with microcontrollers, is a far more effective means of reducing noise than generating your own power.

[SQFIRST]

7 hours ago, jabbr said:

To be clear it’s not a theory, the specification mandates compliance testing whereby noise is injected into the upstream signal and the noise needs to be eliminated by the receiver. 
 

true a model might not have been rigorously tested — none of the 1G Ethernet devices need have this testing done 

 

Indeed. The actual experience of the network with an end to end 10G in operation is unmistakable.

 

Takeaway - compliance to standards is the key and just running a 1G connection off a 10G device does not always mean one is getting the higher standard benefit. 

 

 

 

 

[SQFIRST]

24 minutes ago, Jud said:

Keeping the audio system inside the home off the same circuits devoted to in-house noisemakers like refrigerators, A/C systems, LED lights, even appliances with microcontrollers, is a far more effective means of reducing noise than generating your own power.

+1

 

With regards to networking blocking critical switches/components is key.

[jabbr]

4 hours ago, dbastin said:

I appreciate you are passionate about the specs and measurements and I would not have adopted 10G if it weren't for this.  You may be right that I am not hearing 'noise' (or whatever) transmitted by the network, but it is hard to believe.

 

I can't say what you are hearing, the possible causes approach infinite. Nor have I don't any listening myself to the effects of fiberoptic on what is ultimately a Wifi connection.  Really the possibilities are such that I couldn't do a listening test and come to any conclusion for myself.

 

If you are happy with the sound of your own system that's great.

 

To the extent that you are making "conclusions" about fiberoptic x,y,z I will step in with data to the extent I have it. 

 

My recommendations are based upon my research and in rare cases my own listening experiences. If you are certain that the 10G switch does not eliminate upstream noise in your system, then you should compare different 10G+ switches yourself because these have different implementations. I have recommended Mikrotik only because it is cost effective and fanless. There are many other switches. 

 

I have tested a variety of 10-100G devices myself over the years and can't tell an SQ difference, but if your ears are vastly better than mine you should do your own comprehensive evaluation. I have ansolutely zero confidence in my own ears ability to detect femtosecond differences in jitter nor nanovolt differences in ground plane noise so yes I do defer to published measurements to make my assertions. Its not passion, nor theory.