Who's afraid of DBTs

alfe · January 25, 2015

What about this one : "My wife hears it too !". So trithio, care to elaborate what is wrong with that ?

Because by law she can't witness against her husband:)

PeterSt · January 25, 2015

What about this one : "My wife hears it too !".

I can give some kind of response to this myself and people may think about the value of it (not my response, but the possible truth in it) :

So about DBT^2 ...

When I perceive something for a change (most often for the better, but not necessarily that), then first of all I just continue with the album and don't revert to a track where I heard it first. So, next track up and then I ask the question :

Do you hear a difference anywhere ?

Mostly the answer comes fairly quick. But not always. My message : But my dear, I tell you there is something, and I will die first if you won't come up with something. Obviously I am asking for some poison in my next drink, but so far this did not happen. And, in 100% of cases the very thing boils up. Can last two albums some times, but it will. And of course I don't need to tell you that it is exactly what I perceive.

This has happened 100s of times by now because I completely refuse to be the only one "hearing it". So no matter what change, I require confirmation. And no, I learned that women are not stupid. In fact I have a lot of fun with them, always. So that alone ...

If this is not ABX then I don't know. There's one suggestion only : a change. So go out and find it, dear.

And she will. 100% of times.

PeterSt · January 25, 2015

because by law she can't witness against her husband

lol!

trithio · January 25, 2015

No. And as a matter of fact Julf was not a bad guy. He could seriously troll though, say like you can do it. And that only because it seems a habit of life.

I can tell you another secret : sbgk has been banned too. And you know what ? because of explicit trolling of that same Julf. That is, if my DDR3 serves me well. Yes, some times even moderators fall into pitfalls of the "authorities" in here.

So Julf seriously approached all from the science angle of matters, with the notice that he has gained some serious respect from from earlier lives. But that doesn't prevent people from exhibiting explicit trolling some times and when that gets over- done, well, you get banned - hopefully for some.

sbgk got back because in the end Julf got banned over a common subject. All my fault I think ...

(no I'm sure and I don't like the credits for it, but some times one has to chose)

That does not make me more confortable. Sounds like I have all the 'qualities' that get one banned around here. People already identify me mostly with other banned characters. My future on CA sounds very rosy now. Thanks Peter

trithio · January 25, 2015

Because by law she can't witness against her husband:)

Didnt want to go there in my answer. I'm already about to be banned according to multiple signs. Sexism acusations will be fatal to my feeble CA soul

spdif-usb · January 25, 2015

What about this one : "My wife hears it too !".

So get a divorce. Problem solved! :-P

trithio · January 25, 2015

I can give some kind of response to this myself and people may think about the value of it (not my response, but the possible truth in it) :

So about DBT^2 ...

When I perceive something for a change (most often for the better, but not necessarily that), then first of all I just continue with the album and don't revert to a track where I heard it first. So, next track up and then I ask the question :

Do you hear a difference anywhere ?

Mostly the answer comes fairly quick. But not always. My message : But my dear, I tell you there is something, and I will die first if you won't come up with something. Obviously I am asking for some poison in my next drink, but so far this did not happen. And, in 100% of cases the very thing boils up. Can last two albums some times, but it will. And of course I don't need to tell you that it is exactly what I perceive.

This has happened 100s of times by now because I completely refuse to be the only one "hearing it". So no matter what change, I require confirmation. And no, I learned that women are not stupid. In fact I have a lot of fun with them, always. So that alone ...

If this is not ABX then I don't know. There's one suggestion only : a change. So go out and find it, dear.

And she will. 100% of times.

Dont you think that is a flawed 'confirmation game'?

Nothing wrong with asking your wife. I do that often, too. But if you already told her that you heard something, isnt that going to ruin her chance to come up with an independent opinion?!

I do ask such questions in the most neutral, no-implications manner possible. Because I want a truly independent opinion from the other party. Be it wife or anyone else.

spdif-usb · January 25, 2015

That does not make me more confortable. Sounds like I have all the 'qualities' that get one banned around here. People already identify me mostly with other banned characters. My future on CA sounds very rosy now. Thanks Peter

Don't worry. If all people like you got banned then there would be next to nothing left to discuss on here.

alfe · January 25, 2015

Didnt want to go there in my answer.

This answer could be considered as sexist: if she is in the white team she is afraid to be called fat with a small dick:)

PeterSt · January 25, 2015

Dont you think that is a flawed 'confirmation game'?
Nothing wrong with asking your wife. I do that often, too. But if you already told her that you heard something, isnt that going to ruin her chance to come up with an independent opinion?!

I do ask such questions in the most neutral, no-implications manner possible. Because I want a truly independent opinion from the other party. Be it wife or anyone else.

So you see, this does not make ANY sense to me. Nothing.

Now another 10-8=2 debate will arise ...

beanbag · January 25, 2015

What about this one : "My wife hears it too !". So trithio, care to elaborate what is wrong with that ?

Do we realize that women have a more sensitive "hearing" already because they are forced to not only listen to our mostly heavily distorting systems, but also hardly ever pick the music and now they need to listen to our Black Sabbath's and such, at a way too high level ... which we know but let it go ?

The Audiophile's Wife: Favorite Things

trithio · January 25, 2015

Don't worry. If all people like you got banned then there would be next to nothing left to discuss on here.

I am relying partly on that too . But it's not exactly a solid base on which to build a CA career . Oh well, just writing stuff as it comes. And I'm losing too much time here might as well sleep some.

trithio · January 25, 2015

So you see, this does not make ANY sense to me. Nothing.

Now another 10-8=2 debate will arise ...

Please no. Cant survive two of those in a day. My brain will melt into the twilight zone

Lets just agree to disagree like mature civilized people. Makes sense to me doesnt to you and beer is still tasty.

PeterSt · January 25, 2015

But if you already told her that you heard something, isnt that going to ruin her chance to come up with an independent opinion?!

OK, next secret of this endeavor(s) :

As I told, women are more sensitive. Now my sound went for the worse. At least that is my perception of it. Nothing to ask the wife this time, except for a next drink perhaps. But alas, can poor that myself too.

But now I am annoyed.

This time it is easy to bet a 10-8K (which btw is -7990) that it won't last long until she tells me "it is too loud !".

And of course it is. For the quality of the moment, it indeed is.

So again it works with that women, also in bed.

Also, again nothing of this works if our so-called beautiful system exhibiting horrible sound all the time. Your volume will be lower than you want yourself all the time, or you end up in the attic.

trithio · January 25, 2015

This answer could be considered as sexist: if she is in the white team she is afraid to be called fat with a small dick:)

That whiteteam thing so does miss me in some ways. I'm clearly in that whiteteam. Objectivist & all. But 'marlene' did put me in a basement. And i'm actually siting on a balcony right now on the top floor of the hotel. I'm also not ugly . And I just showered an hour ago. I therefore declare 'Marlene' wrong and irrelevant

P.S.

for anyone who completely misses that, just read the 'marlene' link I posted before.

trithio · January 25, 2015

OK, next secret of this endeavor(s) :

As I told, women are more sensitive. Now my sound went for the worse. At least that is my perception of it. Nothing to ask the wife this time, except for a next drink perhaps. But alas, can poor that myself too.

But now I am annoyed.

This time it is easy to bet a 10-8K (which btw is -7990) that it won't last long until she tells me "it is too loud !".

And of course it is. For the quality of the moment, it indeed is.

So again it works with that women, also in bed.

Also, again nothing of this works if our so-called beautiful system exhibiting horrible sound all the time. Your volume will be lower than you want yourself all the time, or you end up in the attic.

Actually it sounds like you have a very patient wife there. Good for you

If i turn the music loud every day mine will get quite annoyed. And my neighbours. The retired couple under me already complained about my subwoofer. To their defence, that was deep movie bass which kind of rattled the windows at 1am .

But since I actually dont like loud music, everything is still rosy in trithioland.

PeterSt · January 25, 2015

But since I actually dont like loud music, everything is still rosy in trithioland.

You'd have to because live music is fairly loud. Think 90dBSPL (1m) for a piano (wing). So play way less loud than that and no realism can be there anywhere. Of course - when you strive for reality.

And a piano isn't the loudest instrument ...

So can't stand that level, and something must be seriously wrong. Not with you this time, but you know ...

Then of course all *is* wrong ! But some have it better arranged for than others.

PeterSt · January 25, 2015

So again it works with that women, also in bed.

Actually it sounds like you have a very patient wife there. Good for you

Hey, careful now !!

haha

trithio · January 25, 2015

You'd have to because live music is fairly loud. Think 90dBSPL (1m) for a piano (wing). So play way less loud than that and no realism can be there anywhere. Of course - when you strive for reality.

And a piano isn't the loudest instrument ...

So can't stand that level, and something must be seriously wrong. Not with you this time, but you know ...

Then of course all *is* wrong ! But some have it better arranged for than others.

I strive for a comfortable sound level. A recording never sounds like the live performance anyway so I dont bother much. Dont bother _that_ much about sound quality either. By 'normal people' standards I'm probably still an audiofreak but compared to most audiophiles I see around I guess I'm quite 'normal'.

And I wont comment to your other wife post. "Dont want no trouble mister" . Pretty sure thats a movie quote, anyone who knows which?! Some old western?

beanbag · January 25, 2015

No, it's the paper that says that people can, despite the fact DBT places them under stress (and it has been proven elsewhere that if placed under stress, people might not be able to tell differences between quite surprising things), completely reliably pick out the difference

I wouldn't call picking correctly 60% of the time "completely reliable".

even if the filter is less steep than 44.1 kHz sampling frequency normally would require.

This study used 459Hz transition band. Sox would use a default value of 1.1kHz. What transition band were you thinking of that was needed for 44.1?

It's the paper that also says ABX tests are basically worthless, explains why they are,

Uhhh, I don't see any part in the discussion section where they call their main testing method worthless.

and then went on to receive the highest paper award that a paper can receive from the AES Organization, which, FYI, makes it the ONLY paper that has ever received this highest paper award in the specific category of Perception. Ever.

That's super.

mayhem13 · January 25, 2015

No, it's the paper that says that people can, despite the fact DBT places them under stress (and it has been proven elsewhere that if placed under stress, people might not be able to tell differences between quite surprising things), completely reliably pick out the difference even if the filter is less steep than 44.1 kHz sampling frequency normally would require. It's the paper that also says ABX tests are basically worthless, explains why they are, and then went on to receive the highest paper award that a paper can receive from the AES Organization, which, FYI, makes it the ONLY paper that has ever received this highest paper award in the specific category of Perception. Ever.

What can be learned from all this is that there are certain individuals on the net who portray themselves as scientists, yet cannot produce an ounce of science, let alone can even begin to challenge the valuable views and experiences on the subject of psychoacoustics, obviously also including the subject of DBTs, from top experts like Bob Stuart. (sic)

You are kidding, right? Certainly you don't mean to accredit the paper based on AES self serving response. In what marketing universe would AES possibly support ABX or DBT?

Come on dude, you're smarter than that?

trithio · January 25, 2015

The missing quote

"

We keep arming these little countries, then we go and blow the shit out of them. We're like the bullies of the world, you know. We're like Jack Palance in the movie Shane, throwing the pistol at the sheepherder's feet.

"Pick it up."

"I don't want to pick it up, Mister, you'll shoot me."

"Pick up the gun."

"Mister, I don't want no trouble. I just came downtown here to get some hard rock candy for my kids, some gingham for my wife. I don't even know what gingham is, but she goes through about ten rolls a week of that stuff. I ain't looking for no trouble, Mister."

"Pick up the gun."

(He picks it up. Three shots ring out.)

"You all saw him - he had a gun."

~ Bill Hicks

Somewhat ok my memory of that quote. It was a western movie of sorts . And Hicks was so good.

mmerrill99 · January 25, 2015

In cases where you can't scientifically explain or reproduce the effects, such as between cables, how can you even train testers in what to listen for?

But if you are testing a person who claims they can hear differences in cables or other components sighted, then they already know what to listen for, right?

Well that's the second major flaw of quick A/B testing (sighted or blind), IMO - it is premised on the fact that the difference is actually a distortion that is amenable to quick A/B differences & doesn't allow for psychoacoustics. Some differences are the result of how our auditory processing works & not amenable to this A/B switching. We go into a room with music playing - as an example, it takes our auditory processing some time before it differentiates the room effects from the audio that the playback system is outputting. Our processing system forms auditory streams which makes sense of all that we hear & splits them into different auditory objects so, for instance, we can usually tell the ambience on the recording from the ambience of the room we are listening in.

So, if a device has effects which disturb auditory streaming then quick A/B testing is not a good tool for unveiling this. A disturbance in auditory streaming is not a noticeably audible event in the short term - it is more noticeable over prolonged listening. So, for instance, if there is a reduction in electrical noise caused by a cable, this isn't audible as a lower noise floor, it has more global & subtle effects, effects which are more difficult to put your finger on as they often effect the whole audio presentation.

Some areas that are often reported with lower electrical noise is how the sound is perceived to be louder & bass is especially more solid (this is obviously not a measured increase in dB - it's a prceived effect)- I haven't done this blind test but I would be interested in the results

mmerrill99 · January 25, 2015

You surely have a lot of very good points in there. All true and all serious issues to consider. But I still prefer the somewhat flawed DBT to any sighted 'test'. Even my own!

Here is the logic.

If I err on the no-DBT side I may easily spend 10K on a component that sounds just as good as a 2K one. Design, hype, 'reviews' can easily derail your auditory senses like that. Very easily. And it doesnt matter much how experienced you are, smart marketing grabs your brain same as well.

If I err on the other side and I believe a somewhat flawed DBT I may at most miss a slightly better component. Cause even the worst DBT does not miss a major sound difference. But I'll still have 10K to spend on something that _truly_ makes a night and day difference.

In my book that is an obvious and easy choice

OK, but this is a risk reduction methodology based on two flawed tests.

Others will have different approaches & work on the basis that if they make a mistake they can probably sell on the 20K device with not too much hit to their pockets (if they are paying 20K they can probably take some hit anyway) & use it as a learning experience.

I just don't let risk reduction methodologies affect my decisions.

PeterSt · January 25, 2015

Some areas that are often reported with lower electrical noise is how the sound is perceived to be louder & bass is especially more solid (this is obviously not a measured increase in dB - it's a prceived effect)- I haven't done this blind test but I would be interested in the results

Although I fully agree with "perceived effects" I never dig that. I mean, from what I perceive myself. There's always a mere technical reason to be found. So on this one, "obviously not a measured increase in dB" :

First off I would be careful with this, because it is very easy to measure an increase in dB, where it about all places in the room where we can measure that. So would you, for example, perceive to be suddenly really in the church (but it is your listening room) - and which expresses by a very wide sound stage and being in the middle of the music all over ... this then really is so and can be measured by means of an SPL meter (I have done those experiments).

More down to earth, think like this when music is perceived louder, when less noise would be a subject :

All what is more "square" but was flattened (smoothed) by the noise at first, is now more square as such (thus physically so) and this more high transient is what we perceive as more "hurting"; Easily to translate to "more loud".

That meanwhile the bass gets more solid (in the same situation) is just following the same logic. But for the longer wave the work out is different; now the noise which rides on one cycle of it gets less and thus the wave becomes literally more solid. Exactly the opposite of the smoothing happening in the higher frequencies which acts upon more cycles at once (but investigate the noise pattern).

PS: When I perceive changes as such, they never ever go without the reasoning of why. To that regard do notice that changes are always intended, often down to very technical elements. Some times the change works counter productive and then too I want to know why. Example of that : when I know noise is lower but sound gets nasty because of that, I'm fairly confident I hit another noise source, that now being more profound (read : less random). So on to the source of that.

In the end it gets more and more difficult to improve because chances get higher and higher that things inherently (always in there) get more profound, only because you took out other misery.

Nothing goes by accident and nothing is voodoo either.

Who's afraid of DBTs

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in