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Who's afraid of DBTs


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You only speak about your own stuff.

 

So sbgk also doesn't share his smokes (which we tend to call "stuff" over here).

You start to get isolated !

;);)

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So sbgk also doesn't share his smokes (which we tend to call "stuff" over here).

You start to get isolated !

;);)

 

I am definitely isolated in the smokes area. Like totally :)

Also sbgk speaks mostly with himself and wants me to comment on that. Fun stuff :)

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Nothing worth much I'm afraid, but anecdotal to myself and possibly it may say something :

 

I mentioned "unconscious" many times as a prerequisite for applying A-B in the first place. This includes not knowing what you listen to or what to expect. Now 2 years or so ago out (now banned) member Julf put out a quite sophisticated test at recognizing a 24/96 native source which was deformed to all kind of other formats like MP3, 16/44.1, 24/44.1, 16/96 and all the permutations you can think of. Of course you couldn't see it on the file size and such, and IIRC all was presented in the end format of 24/96 again. The quest was to find the native 24/96.

 

Not really many people attended, most probably because the test was really "good" so to speak, and at least afterwards it showed that nobody heard differences in the first place (testified by having all as wrong as could be). From this it is fair to say that many may have tried at first, but at not finding differences in the first place, why or how to attend.

It is to be kept in mind that I hate A-B already because in my opinion it can't work anyway. I told about that. Still, it is challenging, especially if some kind of contest is involved.

 

*Because* I am bored with such tests (the applying of them) I just did what I usually do while listening (and observing) music : I cooked a dinner. Now mind you, for that night it implied having a cooker hood / extractor at full speed, meaning a sheer 70dBSPL of noise (measured at 1m which I measured for the occasion) while music played at 10 meter distance at something like 90dBSPL (@ 1m). I can tell you that the noise is quite profound, me being about under that hood.

Just did my thing on the stove, meanwhile the tracks passing by (total of 30-45 minutes as I recall) and having some paper and pen near by to make notes when something occurred to me. Not because I listened explicitly, but because something jumped out etc.

 

Here you can see the report of that, in a very very lengthy post (my third or so in there) :

Listening test results - Blogs - Computer Audiophile

 

You can also see in there that I applied a final round of listening a first 10 seconds only of the 8 tracks, for final verification ...

 

I was not only quite correct on the result for finding the real 24/96 but I also pointed out all of the others. It was not 100% correct, but that also wasn't asked for. Still ...

 

This should not tell that I am good at this, but it has to tell about the unconscious listening which may be required. And that in the midst of 70dBSPL of noise.

 

If you take the time to read that report from me, you can also see that it hasn't a hoot to do with remembering how a track sounds. So in my view indeed we can't. But what we humans sure can, is take notice of annoyances like jumping out (or underwhelmed) S-es like it happened here. Of course, in advance of this I wasn't about any focus on S-es, but once one jumps out it can easily become that (for all the tracks), especially when a previous track did not so, or in a next no S and only zz is heard.

 

Obviously this is only one small element/aspect of what can be heard in music, while 100s exist. And for example, a jumping out S here may imply a nice metal sounding cymbal there. Start with the latter and be happy - forget to watch the S'es and you failed (because you judge the case concerned as the better one, while meanwhile any voice may sound annoying).

 

This in itself does not require A-B at all. It is just an absolute thing. One thing : your system must be way better than average in order not to be annoyed by everything in the first place; Then nothing of such means works. But this is then because actually nothing works and judgments become arbitrary - or subjective (you'll chose what annoys least, ditch the album as a bad recording and all what is wrong in the base - and you will never improve).

 

Peter

 

Can you do it again without the 70 dBSPL dither :)

 


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I'm just upset that Peter wont share his smokes :)

 

About that bias. It's another 'wow what' thing from you.

Did you just forget that it was a DBT? The testers see neither the 10K component nor the 2K one. Nor have any idea about prices. So there's no bias.

But there's more. You also 'forgot' that the 10K/2K scenario was the NON-DBT one. You see now why I say we dont get each other? :). There isnt even a DBT in _my_ scenario. You only speak about your own stuff.

 

But since you really seem want me into _your_ math and _your_ scenario for some reason. If I determined that the 2K component sounds just as good, I just saved 8K. Whats wrong there? Did I maybe miss some slight differences on the 10K side? So what? I have 8K to buy room treatments and make a REAL difference. Audible by granma in a triple-DBT :)

 

you're original anecdote says non dbt could lead to spending 10k instead of 2k, you then say

 

"If I err on the other side and I believe a somewhat flawed DBT I may at most miss a slightly better component. Cause even the worst DBT does not miss a major sound difference. But I'll still have 10K to spend on something that _truly_ makes a night and day difference."

 

is that not a reference to a dbt test ? must admit it's not just the maths that's confusing, would help if you could understand your own posts.

There is no harm in doubt and skepticism, for it is through these that new discoveries are made. Richard P Feynman

 

http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

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you're original anecdote says non dbt could lead to spending 10k instead of 2k, you then say

 

"If I err on the other side and I believe a somewhat flawed DBT I may at most miss a slightly better component. Cause even the worst DBT does not miss a major sound difference. But I'll still have 10K to spend on something that _truly_ makes a night and day difference."

 

is that not a reference to a dbt test ? must admit it's not just the maths that's confusing, would help if you could understand your own posts.

 

You must be the king of mixing things up :)

The one quoted above is the DBT scenario. The second scenario.

The one you identified before as a 'biased DBT' was the first scenario. The one with 10K/2K 'math issues'. And no-DBTs.

 

Lets organize a DBT together, it'll be perfect :D

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No but they find themselves in the ignore list:)

 

Right now I REALLY wish I was on sbgk's ignore list :D.

I'm not sure whether he is trying to explain my own words to me or his own words to himself. Or something entirely different.

Quite a show, though :)

May also be the best way to ruin a thread. Looks quite screwed to me already.

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Right now I REALLY wish I was on sbgk's ignore list :D.

I'm not sure whether he is trying to explain my own words to me or his own words to himself. Or something entirely different.

Quite a show, though :)

 

When a subjectivist think that he found an argument he will keep digging until he reach the other hemisphere:)

 


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You must be the king of mixing things up :)

The one quoted above is the DBT scenario. The second scenario.

The one you identified before as a 'biased DBT' was the first scenario. The one with 10K/2K 'math issues'. And no-DBTs.

 

Lets organize a DBT together, it'll be perfect :D

 

I think the 2 scenarios are part of the same anecdote, for one obsessed with science and measurements your words are very sloppy.

 

If you have to resort to personal attacks then that tends to indicate you've lost the argument.

There is no harm in doubt and skepticism, for it is through these that new discoveries are made. Richard P Feynman

 

http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

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I think the 2 scenarios are part of the same anecdote, for one obsessed with science and measurements your words are very sloppy.

 

If you have to resort to personal attacks then that tends to indicate you've lost the argument.

 

Yes I lost it. No freaking idea what but I surely lost it. And you won. You are the king. Ok now? Are you happy? And would you pretty please forget it now?

And please do that before I lose my pants too. Because of all the incontrolable laughing :)

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Yes I lost it. No freaking idea what but I surely lost it. And you won. You are the king. Ok now? Are you happy? And would you pretty please forget it now?

And please do that before I lose my pants too. Because of all the incontrolable laughing :)

 

why are you trying to tell me what to do ? I'm just responding and seeking clarification of one of your posts.

 

If you don't want people commenting then don't post in a public forum.

 

You should be prepared to back up what you say without trying to belittle someone for asking a question.

There is no harm in doubt and skepticism, for it is through these that new discoveries are made. Richard P Feynman

 

http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

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Sorry for not following this more closely, but did you two agree that 10-2=8?

 

At some point. And then we forgot. And then the bad DBT turned sour on us. And did throw us both to the logic lions. Which refused to even look at any of us :)

 

To my defence, I proposed we do not comment each other's posts. Even before this whole most curious 'thing' started. I was so smart about two hours ago and then I totally lost it :).

Oh well. I declare this thread ruined. For the third time.

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He wont stop. Heeeeeeelp!

 

If I could, right now I will ban myself for being so stupid and going so far into this 'discussion'. All the laughs I had cannot compensate for the lost neurons. Bye bye my neurons :)

 

Someone please put a white flag on my avatar :)

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At some point. And then we forgot. And then the bad DBT turned sour on us. And did throw us both to the logic lions. Which refused to even look at any of us :)

 

To my defence, I proposed we do not comment each other's posts. Even before this whole most curious 'thing' started. I was so smart about two hours ago and then I totally lost it :).

Oh well. I declare this thread ruined. For the third time.

 

but my metier is pricking the egos of the pompous.

There is no harm in doubt and skepticism, for it is through these that new discoveries are made. Richard P Feynman

 

http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

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I'm worried about something else in Peter's post. That Julf guy and his test did make a lot of sense for me. And he was banned. Do all objectivists get banned sooner or later here?!

 

No. And as a matter of fact Julf was not a bad guy. He could seriously troll though, say like you can do it. And that only because it seems a habit of life.

 

I can tell you another secret : sbgk has been banned too. And you know what ? because of explicit trolling of that same Julf. That is, if my DDR3 serves me well. Yes, some times even moderators fall into pitfalls of the "authorities" in here.

So Julf seriously approached all from the science angle of matters, with the notice that he has gained some serious respect from from earlier lives. But that doesn't prevent people from exhibiting explicit trolling some times and when that gets over- done, well, you get banned - hopefully for some.

 

sbgk got back because in the end Julf got banned over a common subject. All my fault I think ...

(no I'm sure and I don't like the credits for it, but some times one has to chose)

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XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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but my metier is pricking the egos of the pompous.

 

I dont understand you sbgk. Told you already. Doubt you understand any of my words too. Told you already.

 

Let me tell you this short anecdote. It begins with 'your worst nightmare is true'. And it abruptly ends there.

 

Or how about I propose again that we ignore each other. Dont you now think that it will be the best for everyone?

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What about stopping the discussing for the discussion only ?

 

I think the thread is doing okay. Or did for a while. I am guilty just the same.

 

So, someone with new ideas for the equation ?

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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What about stopping the discussing for the discussion only ?

 

I think the thread is doing okay. Or did for a while. I am guilty just the same.

 

So, someone with new ideas for the equation ?

 

http://marlene-d.blogspot.sg/2012/01/another-crappy-religion-audiophilism.html

Posted this before. Did anyone see or read it? I found it hm lets just say 'interesting'. And dont get all upset about the title. The article is actually same as insulting to objectivists :)

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Sorry for quoting myself, just want to add something.

The only stressful-DBT I can think of is one where the test subjects are those self proclaimed golden ears.

Thank you very much for proving my point entirely, i.e. the objective observation that the number of things that people like yourself are able to think of is rather extremely limited at best.

If you had the memory of a goldfish, maybe it would work.
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What about this one : "My wife hears it too !". So trithio, care to elaborate what is wrong with that ?

 

Do we realize that women have a more sensitive "hearing" already because they are forced to not only listen to our mostly heavily distorting systems, but also hardly ever pick the music and now they need to listen to our Black Sabbath's and such, at a way too high level ... which we know but let it go ?

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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What about this one : "My wife hears it too !". So trithio, care to elaborate what is wrong with that ?

 

Do we realize that women have a more sensitive "hearing" already because they are forced to not only listen to our mostly heavily distorting systems, but also hardly ever pick the music and now they need to listen to our Black Sabbath's and such, at a way too high level ... which we know but let it go ?

 

Nothing wrong with that. I even like it when my wife hears it too because it's easier to justify the spending :)

The only thing is, that's just anecdote. And for example some wives may just say 'yes dear I heard it' without even listening :). Even if they truly listened and heard, it's still not _data_. At least not for my own databook.

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