Who's afraid of DBTs

[esldude]

wonder how many requests components like lampizator dacs get for dbts ? guess they are only bought by the golden eared. If only they knew of this thread they could have just bought something for a few $100s instead that would sound the same.

 

I think you might be onto something.

[trithio]

your story is slightly confusing, you say you're choosing between a 2k and a 10k usb cable, but then say you still have 10k to spend after selecting the 2k one. shouldn't that be 8k to spend, unless you had 12k in your pocket originally ?

or maybe you walked out of the shop not trusting your ears or the db test, in which case you still had 10k

 

Heh?

I do not understand a single word in your post. And it has almost nothing to do with my 'story'.

I mean, what's with that strange 10/2/8/12 math of yours and where do you see that in my post?!

And what about _your_ USB cables? No usb and no cables in my post. Do I really sound like someone who will even look at $2K USB cables to you!?!?

 

Anyway from this reply and another one in a different thread I take it you really have some strange bones with me. We also dont really understand each other's writing. I surely dont get yours, especially since you seem to have a funny passion for putting words in my mouth. And usb cables apparently. How about we ignore each other? Cause this stuff is not helpful for anyone.

[trithio]

But these differences are night and day. Some components are regularly relevatory. Anyone can hear them instantly. Unless you do a DBT, then we need super-experienced, highly trained listeners and they might can maybe hear the difference. If they have been trained and experienced as critical listeners which might take years. But as soon as they all go home, are relaxed, and not trying (though all very experienced) all of this stuff is back to night and day. Surely you knew that. So even a well done DBT might cause you to miss out on a life changing component quality difference even if you might not can hear it.

 

Quite simple really.

 

Surely you are joking . May want to make that sarcasm a bit more self-revelatory. I'm not even sure that I got it right.

 

In any case, I so dont buy that lousy 'theory' about night & day differences that magically dissapear on DBTs. I'm the one who said he doesnt trust the average joe much. But I seriously doubt that average joe is so feeble and unsure of himself that a DBT will just scare his hearing away. Let alone an experienced listener. Let alone that a good DBT uses anonymous sheets. Why would you be stressed and scared when you know that no one can know your results? It's a DBT remember!?

And if I make the effort to go through a DBT I want to learn something from it. Being proven wrong would be a _plus_ for me and I would welcome that.

[spdif-usb]

Experiences are WORTHLESS without verification if they're to be applied to a method of discovery.

Last time I checked, ridiculous conclusions that are based on thin air combined with utterly flawed interpretations of valid test results tended to generally be MORE worthless. And then there's the related problem of reliably being able to, or not being able to, assume that the aforementioned test results are reasonably valid in the first place, because it doesn't take to be scientist to see the fact Meyer & Moran test results were the exact opposite of valid.

[trithio]

Surely you are joking . May want to make that sarcasm a bit more self-revelatory. I'm not even sure that I got it right.

 

In any case, I so dont buy that lousy 'theory' about night & day differences that magically dissapear on DBTs. I'm the one who said he doesnt trust the average joe much. But I seriously doubt that average joe is so feeble and unsure of himself that a DBT will just scare his hearing away. Let alone an experienced listener. Let alone that a good DBT uses anonymous sheets. Why would you be stressed and scared when you know that no one can know your results? It's a DBT remember!?

And if I make the effort to go through a DBT I want to learn something from it. Being proven wrong would be a _plus_ for me and I would welcome that.

 

Sorry for quoting myself, just want to add something.

The only stressful-DBT I can think of is one where the test subjects are those self proclaimed golden ears. They have something to prove and a lot to lose. Especially if they are TAS editors or such. But I wouldnt even check such a DBT for anything else than fun. And there are a few fun ones where such people failed utterly. And that's where this whole 'DBTs are bad' smear campaign started.

A sample of ugly human issues at their best if you ask me.

[sandyk]

Sorry for quoting myself,

 

Of course you are!

[sbgk]

Heh?

I do not understand a single word in your post. And it has almost nothing to do with my 'story'.

I mean, what's with that strange 10/2/8/12 math of yours and where do you see that in my post?!

And what about _your_ USB cables? No usb and no cables in my post. Do I really sound like someone who will even look at $2K USB cables to you!?!?

 

 

 

Anyway from this reply and another one in a different thread I take it you really have some strange bones with me. We also dont really understand each other's writing. I surely dont get yours, especially since you seem to have a funny passion for putting words in my mouth. And usb cables apparently. How about we ignore each other? Cause this stuff is not helpful for anyone.

 

ok, let;s try again

 

you dbt a 10k component (we now know it's not a usb cable), you find it's the same as a 2k component (not a usb cable)

 

10-2=8, therefore you have 8k still in your pocket because you bought the 2k

 

the only way you would have 10k is if you originally had 12k

 

is that any clearer ?

[sbgk]

Sorry for quoting myself, just want to add something.

The only stressful-DBT I can think of is one where the test subjects are those self proclaimed golden ears. They have something to prove and a lot to lose. Especially if they are TAS editors or such. But I wouldnt even check such a DBT for anything else than fun. And there are a few fun ones where such people failed utterly. And that's where this whole 'DBTs are bad' smear campaign started.

A sample of ugly human issues at their best if you ask me.

 

did you mean a sample of ugly human tissues ?

[PeterSt]

Heh?

I do not understand a single word in your post. And it has almost nothing to do with my 'story'.

I mean, what's with that strange 10/2/8/12 math of yours and where do you see that in my post?!

And what about _your_ USB cables? No usb and no cables in my post. Do I really sound like someone who will even look at $2K USB cables to you!?!?

 

Now this is odd. To me there is completely nothing unclear in sbgk's post. His math is correct while yours is wrong. It is only that he makes fun of you, pointing you at a silly mistake. So what is it, can't you get that ? And if not that, you can not read. But didn't I say that before, more than once.

 

Anyway from this reply and another one in a different thread I take it you really have some strange bones with me. We also dont really understand each other's writing. I surely dont get yours, especially since you seem to have a funny passion for putting words in my mouth. And usb cables apparently. How about we ignore each other? Cause this stuff is not helpful for anyone.

 

Is that a cover ? blaming someone for pointing out mistakes on your side ? I personally don't dig that because at some stage it becomes apparent. Of course the "mistake" is totally unimportant but what if it is ?

Now you can blame me for having strange bones with you, but I have not at all. I just observe and some times express my observations.

 

Now say that you didn't understand a word from this post. Good though that you can DBT. Must be very easy. At least you can't find a difference between Foobar and JRiver. So I guess there isn't any.

 

Edit, PS: I didn't see sbgk's response when writing this (cross posted).

[sbgk]

Now this is odd. To me there is completely nothing unclear in sbgk's post. His math is correct while yours is wrong. It is only that he makes fun of you, pointing you at a silly mistake. So what is it, can't you get that ? And if not that, you can not read. But didn't I say that before, more than once.

 

 

 

Is that a cover ? blaming someone for pointing out mistakes on your side ? I personally don't dig that because at some stage it becomes apparent. Of course the "mistake" is totally unimportant but what if it is ?

Now you can blame me for having strange bones with you, but I have not at all. I just observe and some times express my observations.

 

Now say that you didn't understand a word from this post. Good though that you can DBT. Must be very easy. At least you can't find a difference between Foobar and JRiver. So I guess there isn't any.

 

Edit, PS: I didn't see sbgk's response when writing this (cross posted).

 

maybe comprehension can be influenced not to comprehend, the same way that hearing can be influenced not to hear differences. The other possibility is he isn't truthful in his posts.

[trithio]

ok, let;s try again

 

you dbt a 10k component (we now know it's not a usb cable), you find it's the same as a 2k component (not a usb cable)

 

10-2=8, therefore you have 8k still in your pocket because you bought the 2k

 

the only way you would have 10k is if you originally had 12k

 

is that any clearer ?

 

Your point is much more clear now, thanks. But still has nothing to do with my post.

Maybe this will help: I did not buy anything! . 10K vs 2K was just a sample to ilustrate that the 10K component was not worth the money. You can actually replace 2K with any random number below 10K doesnt make any difference. Or eliminate the 2K number completely. Does not change my post or point. There is actually _no math_ in my post. Is my point also clear for you now?

What's clear to me is that we dont get each other's writing. So, why do you insist!? Do you really enjoy semantics like this? Or meaningless 'math' with random numbers?

 

 

And for PeterSt just one word: really?

[PeterSt]

protx

[PeterSt]

So, why do you insist!?

 

No, you do. So why is that ?

[PeterSt]

Maybe this will help: I did not buy anything! .

 

Our son started to defend like this when he was 10 or so. Still does it. I better don't tell his age of today ...

[trithio]

Sorry Peter, that is just silly schoolyard 'fun'. Or just good smokes. Have a good time with that. Dont count on me.

[PeterSt]

Sorry guys, this is just silly schoolyard 'fun'.

 

Correct. But my point was that the kids in in the schoolyard regard themselves very serious. Hard to get through to and such.

[trithio]

Correct. But my point was that the kids in in the schoolyard regard themselves very serious. Hard to get through to and such.

 

Oh well. Next time you want to make such jokes, share your smokes first

[sbgk]

Sorry Peter, that is just silly schoolyard 'fun'. Or just good smokes. Have a good time with that. Dont count on me.

 

so the 10k component sounded the same as a 2k component and you didn't buy either, does that mean you already had a component to listen to or was the 2k component yours and you took it along to the dbt ? if the 2k component wasn't yours then did you dbt the 2k component and your original component.

 

You seem glad to have found that the 10k component sounded the same as a 2k component, I would say those feelings would bias the dbt towards finding no differences. Would take a determined effort not to know the price of what was being compared.

[trithio]

http://marlene-d.blogspot.sg/2012/01/another-crappy-religion-audiophilism.html

 

Nice blog entry. Visionary I would say. Because it contains almost all that was said in this thread. CA, DBTs, objectivists, subjectivists, it's all in. And equally insulting to all of them. Actually us

[trithio]

so the 10k component sounded the same as a 2k component and you didn't buy either, does that mean you already had a component to listen to or was the 2k component yours and you took it along to the dbt ? if the 2k component wasn't yours then did you dbt the 2k component and your original component.

 

You seem glad to have found that the 10k component sounded the same as a 2k component, I would say those feelings would bias the dbt towards finding no differences. Would take a determined effort not to know the price of what was being compared.

 

I have nothing to add to my previous answers. Which are already too much blaaaa about a random, nonsignificant 2k number.

So come on. Just forget it. Or not. Just dont count on me anymore. Not that you did much until now, you just had fun with your own 'math'.

[sbgk]

I have nothing to add to my previous answers. Which are already too much blaaaa about a random, nonsignificant 2k number.

So come on. Just forget it. Or not. Just dont count on me anymore. Not that you did much until now, you just had fun with your own 'math'.

 

so now maths doesn't matter, how contrary.

 

I think I've raised an important issue about bias in dbt tests

 

You seem glad to have found that the 10k component sounded the same as a 2k component, I would say those feelings would bias the dbt towards finding no differences. Would take a determined effort not to know the price of what was being compared.

[trithio]

so now maths doesn't matter, how contrary.

 

I think I've raised an important issue about bias in dbt tests

 

You seem glad to have found that the 10k component sounded the same as a 2k component, I would say those feelings would bias the dbt towards finding no differences. Would take a determined effort not to know the price of what was being compared.

 

Math matters. Your own math matters to you. Only.

Or how about this mature 'answer': laa la laaa laaaaa .

Thread closed. Happy now?

[sbgk]

Math matters. Your own math matters to you. Only.

Or how about this mature 'answer': laa la laaa laaaaa

 

I think I've raised an important issue about bias in dbt tests

 

You seem glad to have found that the 10k component sounded the same as a 2k component, I would say those feelings would bias the dbt towards finding no differences. Would take a determined effort not to know the price of what was being compared.

 

do you have any comment to make ?

[PeterSt]

Nothing worth much I'm afraid, but anecdotal to myself and possibly it may say something :

 

I mentioned "unconscious" many times as a prerequisite for applying A-B in the first place. This includes not knowing what you listen to or what to expect. Now 2 years or so ago out (now banned) member Julf put out a quite sophisticated test at recognizing a 24/96 native source which was deformed to all kind of other formats like MP3, 16/44.1, 24/44.1, 16/96 and all the permutations you can think of. Of course you couldn't see it on the file size and such, and IIRC all was presented in the end format of 24/96 again. The quest was to find the native 24/96.

 

Not really many people attended, most probably because the test was really "good" so to speak, and at least afterwards it showed that nobody heard differences in the first place (testified by having all as wrong as could be). From this it is fair to say that many may have tried at first, but at not finding differences in the first place, why or how to attend.

It is to be kept in mind that I hate A-B already because in my opinion it can't work anyway. I told about that. Still, it is challenging, especially if some kind of contest is involved.

 

*Because* I am bored with such tests (the applying of them) I just did what I usually do while listening (and observing) music : I cooked a dinner. Now mind you, for that night it implied having a cooker hood / extractor at full speed, meaning a sheer 70dBSPL of noise (measured at 1m which I measured for the occasion) while music played at 10 meter distance at something like 90dBSPL (@ 1m). I can tell you that the noise is quite profound, me being about under that hood.

Just did my thing on the stove, meanwhile the tracks passing by (total of 30-45 minutes as I recall) and having some paper and pen near by to make notes when something occurred to me. Not because I listened explicitly, but because something jumped out etc.

 

Here you can see the report of that, in a very very lengthy post (my third or so in there) :

Listening test results - Blogs - Computer Audiophile

 

You can also see in there that I applied a final round of listening a first 10 seconds only of the 8 tracks, for final verification ...

 

I was not only quite correct on the result for finding the real 24/96 but I also pointed out all of the others. It was not 100% correct, but that also wasn't asked for. Still ...

 

This should not tell that I am good at this, but it has to tell about the unconscious listening which may be required. And that in the midst of 70dBSPL of noise.

 

If you take the time to read that report from me, you can also see that it hasn't a hoot to do with remembering how a track sounds. So in my view indeed we can't. But what we humans sure can, is take notice of annoyances like jumping out (or underwhelmed) S-es like it happened here. Of course, in advance of this I wasn't about any focus on S-es, but once one jumps out it can easily become that (for all the tracks), especially when a previous track did not so, or in a next no S and only zz is heard.

 

Obviously this is only one small element/aspect of what can be heard in music, while 100s exist. And for example, a jumping out S here may imply a nice metal sounding cymbal there. Start with the latter and be happy - forget to watch the S'es and you failed (because you judge the case concerned as the better one, while meanwhile any voice may sound annoying).

 

This in itself does not require A-B at all. It is just an absolute thing. One thing : your system must be way better than average in order not to be annoyed by everything in the first place; Then nothing of such means works. But this is then because actually nothing works and judgments become arbitrary - or subjective (you'll chose what annoys least, ditch the album as a bad recording and all what is wrong in the base - and you will never improve).

 

Peter

[trithio]

I think I've raised an important issue about bias in dbt tests

 

You seem glad to have found that the 10k component sounded the same as a 2k component, I would say those feelings would bias the dbt towards finding no differences. Would take a determined effort not to know the price of what was being compared.

 

do you have any comment to make ?

 

I'm just upset that Peter wont share his smokes

 

About that bias. It's another 'wow what' thing from you.

Did you just forget that it was a DBT? The testers see neither the 10K component nor the 2K one. Nor have any idea about prices. So there's no bias.

But there's more. You also 'forgot' that the 10K/2K scenario was the NON-DBT one. You see now why I say we dont get each other? . There isnt even a DBT in _my_ 10K/2K scenario. You only speak about your own stuff.

 

But since you really seem to want me into _your_ math and _your_ scenario for some reason. If I determined that the 2K component sounds just as good, I just saved 8K. Whats wrong there? Did I maybe miss some slight differences on the 10K side? So what? I have 8K to buy room treatments and make a REAL difference. Audible by granma in a triple-DBT