HQ Player

[Miska]

8 hours ago, dericchan1 said:

Thats not true in our scenario as we are trying to go from the input NAA of the RPI to your hqplayer desktop pc - that requires usb connection 

 

Connection between NAA and HQPlayer is always network. Connection between NAA and audio device can be USB, I2S, S/PDIF or what ever.

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, bogi said:

AK4191EQ supports DSDD bit = "1" (direct DSD) at DSD512, but Gustard products don't have it implemented.

 

Well, you do get sound out with DSD512, but it doesn't work as direct. If you look at AK4499EX datasheet, you can see that the DAC chip can operate only at DSD128 or DSD256 rate.

 

Don't trust those AKM datasheets too much regarding these things, as they don't really work the way they have documented there.

 

It has become just like ESS datasheets... 😂

[Miska]

5 hours ago, bogi said:

a) [iPad running Apple Music] ---USB---> [Pi4 as input NAA] ---LAN---> [HQPlayer]

b) [iPad running Apple Music] ---USB---> [HQP Embedded on Pi4 with specific input URI]

 

Yes, exactly. Both of these scenarios work. You can also replace Pi4 with UP Gateway or Pi5.

 

[bogi]

5 hours ago, Miska said:

Because the AK4499EX chip can operate only at 5.6 or 11.3 MHz. DSD512 is not going to be direct.

 

But the interface between chips is 5 to 7 bit binary weighted, so groups of DSD bits, converted to binary weighted, could be transferred in time, if such a thing would be implemented. We discussed that maybe a year ago, before your measurements. I mean something like DoP - it transfers DSD bits unaltered at lower PCM rate (352.7k) than DSD rate is (5.6M). The only significant difference against DoP would be temporary binary weighted encoding to spare chip pins.

 

How I see it: If direct DSD512 does not work, it is about incorrect documentation or buggy chip implementation, not about impossibility. At least from AK4191EQ and chip interface point of view. I don't know if AK4499EQ is internally able to operate at 22 MHz.

[woshifeng3627]

5 hours ago, Miska said:

 

好吧，您确实可以使用 DSD512 获得声音，但它不能直接工作。如果您查看数据表AK4499EX您可以看到 DAC 芯片只能以 DSD128 或 DSD256 速率工作。

 

关于这些事情，不要太相信那些 AKM 数据表，因为它们并没有真正按照他们在那里记录的方式工作。

 

它已经变得就像 ESS 数据表一样......😂

 

It seems that the problem is not with the AKM4191EQ, but with the 4499EX. Even if the 4191EQ supports the DSD512 bypass channel, data transmission to the 4499EX cannot obtain normal sound. Just like A26, when DSD direct mode is turned on, the sound produced by inputting DSD512 will have a lot of noise. We can only hope that the next AKM flagship chip will perform well. Currently, the 4499EX is not perfect, and I believe that AKM will soon have a replacement. We also look forward to the opportunity for you to test the SDA-6 PRO2 DAC and see if it can truly solve the problem of DSD512 producing perfect sound.

[woshifeng3627]

8 minutes ago, bogi said:

 

但是芯片之间的接口是 5 到 7 位二进制加权的，因此如果实现这样的事情，可以及时传输转换为二进制加权的 DSD 位组。我们大概在一年前讨论过这个问题，在你测量之前。我的意思是像 DoP 这样的东西 - 它以低于 DSD 速率 （352.7k） 的 PCM 速率 （5.6M） 传输 DSD 位。与 DoP 的唯一显着区别是临时二进制加权编码以备用芯片引脚。

 

我怎么看：如果直接 DSD512 不起作用，那是关于不正确的文档或有缺陷的芯片实现，而不是关于不可能。

 

I think you need an SDA-6 PRO2 DAC to test and you'll know the answer. I'm really looking forward to it, haha

[bogi]

6 minutes ago, woshifeng3627 said:

I think you need an SDA-6 PRO2 DAC to test and you'll know the answer. I'm really looking forward to it, haha

It may play on Singxer. But other thing is if it is direct DSD.

[woshifeng3627]

8 minutes ago, bogi said:

它可以在 Singxer 上播放。但另一件事是，如果它是直接的 DSD。

Are you sure that the SDA-6 PRO2 DAC using AKM4191+4499EX can perfectly play DSD512 in DSD direct mode???

[bogi]

6 hours ago, Miska said:

This is kind of pointless, since HQPlayer Embedded supports UPnP already directly.

 

I don-t see it that way.

 

Many people don't install Embedded because they are not familiar with Linux. Look at head-fi for example. They are running Desktop and many of them are missing the UPnP functionality to be used with streaming services.

 

Then, people who are already using enough powerful general purpose computer are often not willing to run a separate HQPlayer computer.

 

These are groups of people for which Desktop fits more than Embedded. Watching for example head-fi discussions I don't see a way it could be changed significantly in near future. Furhermore, this topic is bound with licensing model too. Desktop and Embedded require separate licenses and that discourages Desktop users to try Embedded.

 

If somebody already uses Pi4 as NAA, adding UPnP Renderer input would not require new hardware and probably some free UPnP Renderer could be used. So the added UPnP frontend to HQPlayer Desktop would cost nothing.

 

 

[bogi]

15 minutes ago, woshifeng3627 said:

Are you sure that the SDA-6 PRO2 DAC using AKM4191+4499EX can perfectly play DSD512 in DSD direct mode???

 

Absolutely not and after latest Miska's posts I don't expect it really working as direct DSD.

What I said is that it may play on SDA-6 PRO2 without playback issues, but one does not know if it is direct DSD path or not.

[dericchan1]

16 minutes ago, bogi said:

 

I don-t see it that way.

 

Many people don't install Embedded because they are not familiar with Linux. Look at head-fi for example. They are running Desktop and many of them are missing the UPnP functionality to be used with streaming services.

 

Then, people who are already using enough powerful general purpose computer are often not willing to run a separate HQPlayer computer.

 

These are groups of people for which Desktop fits more than Embedded. Watching for example head-fi discussions I don't see a way it could be changed significantly in near future. Furhermore, this topic is bound with licensing model too. Desktop and Embedded require separate licenses and that discourages Desktop users to try Embedded.

 

If somebody already uses Pi4 as NAA, adding UPnP Renderer input would not require new hardware and probably some free UPnP Renderer could be used. So the added UPnP frontend to HQPlayer Desktop would cost nothing.

 

 

To be honest, at least to me, going through this exercise is pretty much just for the hobby of achieving a different way to get there and I would be extremely happy if somehow I could manage to do that. 

 

This is way more complex for desktop users compared to simply going with Embedded AND it still requires linux knowledge more so than simply getting an embedded license.

 

I just tried installing moode audio, enabled it as a UPNP renderer but I realized that's based on buster so networkaudiod from bookworm would not work..., I think I am going to try installing jriver as a upnp renderer on a RPI4 next.

As you can see there are just so many factors you are trying to resolve to get there. 

 

Most importantly by the time you manage to make it work (if it can), the sound quality may still be inferior compared to running Qobuz directly from client app OR going jplay iOS directly to Embedded... I listened to my current set up tonight with jriver as a upnp renderer to input NAA to HQP desktop and was still finding client app sounded better comparing A/B, which makes me doubt that this loopback method even tho it will reduce the need for a mini pc in the chain as the source device, may not actually provide sonic benefit compared to what I am currently doing...

 

 

[bogi]

4 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

I listened to my current set up tonight with jriver as a upnp renderer to input NAA to HQP desktop and was still finding client app sounded better comparing A/B, which makes me doubt that this loopback method even tho it will reduce the need for a mini pc in the chain as the source device, may not actually provide sonic benefit compared to what I am currently doing...

The series of posts few days ago about Qobuz playback was about how both HQPlayer Client and UPnP way sounds better than Qobuz playback from Roon. Of course, choose what is easier for you and sounds better for your ears.

 

The UPnP solution adds the possibility to play also streaming services which are not supported by HQPlayer Client. So HQPlayer Client does not act as full substitution of the UPnP way.

 

About suitable UPnP renderer for Pi, it's better at first to discuss that topic with people who have experience, can suggest a suitable product and can give some advice about installation and configuration.

[dericchan1]

1 minute ago, bogi said:

The series of posts few days ago about Qobuz playback was about how both HQPlayer Client and UPnP way sounds better than Qobuz playback from Roon. Of course, choose what is easier for you and sounds better for your ears.

 

The UPnP solution adds the possibility to play also streaming services which are not supported by HQPlayer Client. So HQPlayer Client does not act as full substitution of the UPnP way.

 

About suitable UPnP renderer for Pi, it's better at first to discuss that topic with people who have experience, can suggest a suitable product and can give some advice about installation and configuration.

I know for a fact jriver will work, but that would be additional cost to acquire a Linux jriver license for me.

 

The upnp route does not introduce new streaming possibility to hqplayer. It really is the usb input NAA that makes this happens. One can now simply take a laptop or an iPad to achieve running these additional streaming services. Upnp adds to the remote capability so one can have a upnp control app to do all streaming and local content in one nice app on your phone instead of having to use a iPad or laptop connect physically to a input NAA 

[woshifeng3627]

38 minutes ago, bogi said:

 

绝对不是，在 Miska 的最新帖子之后，我不希望它真的可以作为直接 DSD。

我说的是，它可以在SDA-6 PRO2上播放而不会出现播放问题，但不知道它是否是直接的DSD路径。

 

Mmm, if I don't turn on DSD direct mode, my A26 can still work at DSD512 speed and support 48K DSD upscaling. However, this won't bypass the built-in modulator, and the sound is not as clean as the DSD256 in DSD direct mode, which is a noticeable difference. It seems that there is no need to consider changing the DAC for now, just continue listening. Besides, my computer is now upscaling DSD256 easily, so I will wait for AKM to release a new chip before making a decision, I personally really like the sound characteristics of AKM chips, especially in terms of vocal performance, which is much better than ESS chips. My previous DAC was X26PRO, which used two ES9038PROs. However, if I mainly listen to classical music, ES chips are a good choice, but unfortunately I don't listen to classical music! I have also heard of R26, and after listening for a day, I returned it and replaced it with A26. Now A26 has been listening to it for over a year, and it's not bad!

[Luca72c]

32 minutes ago, woshifeng3627 said:

 

Mmm, if I don't turn on DSD direct mode, my A26 can still work at DSD512 speed and support 48K DSD upscaling. However, this won't bypass the built-in modulator, and the sound is not as clean as the DSD256 in DSD direct mode, which is a noticeable difference. It seems that there is no need to consider changing the DAC for now, just continue listening. Besides, my computer is now upscaling DSD256 easily, so I will wait for AKM to release a new chip before making a decision, I personally really like the sound characteristics of AKM chips, especially in terms of vocal performance, which is much better than ESS chips. My previous DAC was X26PRO, which used two ES9038PROs. However, if I mainly listen to classical music, ES chips are a good choice, but unfortunately I don't listen to classical music! I have also heard of R26, and after listening for a day, I returned it and replaced it with A26. Now A26 has been listening to it for over a year, and it's not bad!

 

Please consider that there are many factors playing an important role in sound/timbre/frequencies rendition in a dac, i found that dac chip has a not so relevant role compared to - say - output stage, analog reconstruction/bass pass filters and even power suppliy. So you can't compare two dac chips only by listening to a pair of implementations. 

I had 2 diy dacs with similar psus and very similar output stage but different dacs chips, one akm 4493 and one ess 9038pro.

Believe me, the difference was very difficult to hear, even with the akm running dsd direct mode. And with correctly implemented analog reconstruction filter in ess dac, the latter was surely not worse than the other

[woshifeng3627]

35 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

 

请注意，在DAC中，有许多因素在声音/音色/频率再现中起着重要作用，我发现DAC芯片与输出级、模拟重建/低音通滤波器甚至电源供应相比，其作用并不那么重要。因此，您不能仅通过监听一对实现来比较两个DAC芯片。

我有 2 个 diy dac，具有相似的 psu 和非常相似的输出级，但 dacs 芯片不同，一个是 akm 4493，一个是 ess 9038pro。

相信我，即使 akm 运行 dsd direct 模式，也很难听到差异。在ess dac中正确实施模拟重建滤波器后，后者肯定不会比另一个差

 

The equipment I have personally heard is limited, and I have also provided feedback on the sound I have heard within the range of equipment I have heard! I also love SACD very much. Currently, I have collected all the popular Chinese SACDs and am also following up on the new Chinese popular SACDs released by record companies. For those who love DSD audio, AKM or some DAC and HQplayer with DSD bypass channels are undoubtedly the best choices. Everyone has different preferences, some people like AKM, while others like ESS. There is no absolute thing.

[sskom]

On 3/6/2024 at 8:56 PM, sskom said:

Despite all ROON processing being switched off the sound is not as airy, clear, detailed, and emotional as from HQPlayer.

@Miskacould you please give an explanation or any thoughts concerning this difference in SQ?

[Luca72c]

1 hour ago, woshifeng3627 said:

Everyone has different preferences, some people like AKM, while others like ESS. There is no absolute thing.

 

Yes, of course. What i wanted to say is that in the sound you hear from a dac, in my experience you are hearing much more the effect of output stage and other implementation characteristics (master clock, fifo/reclock, analog filters, psu, input signal management, etc...) than the dac chip itself: i heard ess 9038 dac implementations sounding totally different, you wouldn't say it was the same dac chip. The same for akm chips, maybe in some slightly minor extent. 

But i think that if you are looking for good dsd direct dacs, there is much more than ess and akm sigma delta chips. T&A, Holo, DSC and others all offer very good dsd reproduction, better than akm and ess chips imho, as they use specialized hardware for that

[woshifeng3627]

1 hour ago, Luca72c said:

 

是的，当然。我想说的是，在您从 DAC 听到的声音中，根据我的经验，您听到的输出级和其他实现特性（主时钟、FIFO/RECLOCK、模拟滤波器、PSU、输入信号管理等）的影响比 DAC 芯片本身要多得多：我听到 ESS 9038 DAC 实现听起来完全不同， 你不会说它是同一个DAC芯片。AKM芯片也是如此，也许在某种程度上略有不同。

但我认为，如果您正在寻找好的 dsd 直接 DAC，那么 ess 和 akm sigma delta 芯片远不止这些。T&A、Holo、DSC 和其他公司都提供了非常好的 dsd 再现，比 akm 和 ess 芯片更好恕我直言，因为它们为此使用了专门的硬件

 

The only R2R DAC I listened to was R26, but I didn't like the sound of R2R. At that time, I didn't use HQplayer, but only used Foobar to play DSD. After only listening for a day, I withdrew it and switched to the current A26. I don't know how the R2R DAC sounds from other companies, so far I still prefer AKM more. Perhaps in the future, I will have the opportunity to buy a HOLO Spring 3-L3, but I need to save money, haha! There are not many HOLO decoders to choose from in the second-hand market, which is a bit unusual.

[Chanh]

Great advice on DAC variants implementation, but it seems a bit off-topic. Let's shift our focus back to HQPlayer.

[zhjie]

14 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Yes, exactly. Both of these scenarios work. You can also replace Pi4 with UP Gateway or Pi5.

 

Hi, Miska. Does Pi5 support dsd1024 with your holo spring?

[Luca72c]

3 hours ago, woshifeng3627 said:

 

The only R2R DAC I listened to was R26, but I didn't like the sound of R2R. At that time, I didn't use HQplayer, but only used Foobar to play DSD. After only listening for a day, I withdrew it and switched to the current A26. I don't know how the R2R DAC sounds from other companies, so far I still prefer AKM more. Perhaps in the future, I will have the opportunity to buy a HOLO Spring 3-L3, but I need to save money, haha! There are not many HOLO decoders to choose from in the second-hand market, which is a bit unusual.

 

Usually R2R dacs have a separate converter for dsd, so the dsd sound signature of those dacs has nothing to do with "R2R sound'" (that cannot be judged by listening to a single, cheap  R2R dac, of course) and obviously can be very different from a R2R dac to another

[Fredc]

16 hours ago, dericchan1 said:

To be honest, at least to me, going through this exercise is pretty much just for the hobby of achieving a different way to get there and I would be extremely happy if somehow I could manage to do that. 

 

This is way more complex for desktop users compared to simply going with Embedded AND it still requires linux knowledge more so than simply getting an embedded license.

 

I just tried installing moode audio, enabled it as a UPNP renderer but I realized that's based on buster so networkaudiod from bookworm would not work..., I think I am going to try installing jriver as a upnp renderer on a RPI4 next.

As you can see there are just so many factors you are trying to resolve to get there. 

 

Most importantly by the time you manage to make it work (if it can), the sound quality may still be inferior compared to running Qobuz directly from client app OR going jplay iOS directly to Embedded... I listened to my current set up tonight with jriver as a upnp renderer to input NAA to HQP desktop and was still finding client app sounded better comparing A/B, which makes me doubt that this loopback method even tho it will reduce the need for a mini pc in the chain as the source device, may not actually provide sonic benefit compared to what I am currently doing...

 

 

Yes I guess I am one of those desktop users. Even though I had been in IT for years, I'm not into Linux or networking. Which wouldn't have stop me from spending time to try these configurations, but from what I read they offer minimal improvement in terms of output sound quality. I generally prefer playing from local library as I personally think the sound quality is better (or at least as good) as streaming. The thought of having to boot up 3 or 4 machines to listen to some music do turn me off a bit. I thought of going down the spdif path but thought I give the Qobuz client a try. Having played around with that for a couple of weeks, I can't say I'm impressed. Both the UI and the navigation did not impress me. Simple things like short press, long press and double click on the same icon means different things. Why not have 3 different icons with clear message on which one does what. The search is not very intuitive. You can search on screen 1 or 3. Little things like you search on an artist and other artists popped up whether it be in screen 1 or 3. On screen 3, you will then have to find the artist from the list to show his/her albums/songs (and took me a while to work out the albums are at the top of the list and songs follow. The queue list has load, save, delete functions and I'm yet to work out how to create a new list (the manual doesn't seem to explain). It doesn't like me adding songs to a queue while it's being played, it will skip a few seconds at the end of a track before playing a new one just been added (prefetch and freewheel do not help). I feel it's better to have a Qobuz specfic client rather than mixing playing from Qobuz and library from the same client. I would certainly pay money for a high quality Qobuz/Hqplayer client and hope it's something Miska will consider in HQP 6. Right now, i prefer playing Qobuz from its Windows Qobuz app and output direct to the dac using its bit perferct filter (the Qobuz app do bypass the windows sound settings and does auto sample rate change).  Still have my Amazon music subscription as there are apps like Sidify (who claim on their website 100% legitimate) that allows me to download tracks in its original amazon record and sample rate.

[dericchan1]

3 minutes ago, Fredc said:

Yes I guess I am one of those desktop users. Even though I had been in IT for years, I'm not into Linux or networking. Which wouldn't have stop me from spending time to try these configurations, but from what I read they offer minimal improvement in terms of output sound quality. I generally prefer playing from local library as I personally think the sound quality is better (or at least as good) as streaming. The thought of having to boot up 3 or 4 machines to listen to some music do turn me off a bit. I thought of going down the spdif path but thought I give the Qobuz client a try. Having played around with that for a couple of weeks, I can't say I'm impressed. Both the UI and the navigation did not impress me. Simple things like short press, long press and double click on the same icon means different things. Why not have 3 different icons with clear message on which one does what. The search is not very intuitive. You can search on screen 1 or 3. Little things like you search on an artist and other artists popped up whether it be in screen 1 or 3. On screen 3, you will then have to find the artist from the list to show his/her albums/songs (and took me a while to work out the albums are at the top of the list and songs follow. The queue list has load, save, delete functions and I'm yet to work out how to create a new list (the manual doesn't seem to explain). It doesn't like me adding songs to a queue while it's being played, it will skip a few seconds at the end of a track before playing a new one just been added (prefetch and freewheel do not help). I feel it's better to have a Qobuz specfic client rather than mixing playing from Qobuz and library from the same client. I would certainly pay money for a high quality Qobuz/Hqplayer client and hope it's something Miska will consider in HQP 6. Right now, i prefer playing Qobuz from its Windows Qobuz app and output direct to the dac using its bit perferct filter (the Qobuz app do bypass the windows sound settings and does auto sample rate change).  Still have my Amazon music subscription as there are apps like Sidify (who claim on their website 100% legitimate) that allows me to download tracks in its original amazon record and sample rate.

I honestly did not find the client app to be that difficult to use. I have been using it for a year until recently started using the jplay iOS. The client app support for qobuz is quite a bit better than when it first launched. Also you can do your searching of songs using your laptop or iPhone qobuz app, add the tracks or albums or artists to favorite and it will show up right away in client app, that’s pretty cool actually.

 

if you simply use the client app as “click start and play”, it’s rock solid and the sound quality are the best you can get

[woshifeng3627]

I hope HQplayer Client can develop a new feature that is the memory window size function. For example, after manually adjusting the appropriate window size, the next time I open HQplayer Client, it will still maintain the appropriate window size that I adjusted, rather than restoring the default window. The default window is really too small in today's era of large screens! For desktop pure users, this feature is really needed because I don't use ROON or other software to manage push notifications. Every time I listen to music, I open the HQplayer Client to select the album I want to play.

 

Below, I will compare the default window size with the window size I adjusted. Obviously, the window I adjusted can display more albums, which helps me quickly find the album I want to listen to.

 

Default Window

 

 

 

 

The window I adjusted