HQ Player

[Miska]

1 hour ago, audiofool said:

I guess my question really is how perfect are the isolators, for example, if you use something like an rpi4 or a very good server with gigabyte premium usb ports once they go through say the 7055-C can you tell the difference between the rpi and the server?

 

It depends... It is pretty hard to give a simple blanket answer to this kind of thing.

 

[Miska]

4 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

@Miska on the topic of intona, I have been thinking about the idea of trying the new intona POE ethernet switch to power the RPI4 through POE so no need for PSU. This might even work for a fitlet2 or fitlet3 with the POE module as well. 

 

https://intona.eu/en/products/poesy

 

What is your take on powering NAA with POE in general, doesn't have to be this intona switch but maybe a CISCO POE switch?

 

I've noticed that device, but I'm not sure what to think about it. I use PoE to power some of my in-room switches, WiFi access points and security cameras.

 

But I'm undecided about PoE for NAA. Remember that using PoE breaks the galvanic isolation Ethernet otherwise gives you. It goes to same category as using shielded ethernet cables...

 

[dericchan1]

Just now, Miska said:

 

I've noticed that device, but I'm not sure what to think about it. I use PoE to power some of my in-room switches, WiFi access points and security cameras.

 

But I'm undecided about PoE for NAA. Remember that using PoE breaks the galvanic isolation Ethernet otherwise gives you. It goes to same category as using shielded ethernet cables...

 

Thanks Miska, better stick with what works!!!! 

 

Cheers

Deric

[audiofool]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

It depends... It is pretty hard to give a simple blanket answer to this kind of thing.

 

Sounds like there is still some interaction between the source and the isolator and/or the isolator and some dacs.   I was hoping that the isolator would eliminate all issues with the source.  I understand that the Innota has considerably sophisticated software to work as well as it does.  I may try the TI isolator since it seems they developed a chip for the specific purpose.  I personally find that usb cables, source usb port choice and even alsa buffer settings make a difference.

[camott]

22 hours ago, dericchan1 said:

Eric, I have the same issue with the 7055-C (the one with metal chassis) with my raspberry pi 4, I also had to add an anker passive usb hub. But I did not insert between the intona and the dac, I place the hub between the raspberry pi 4 and the intona, so the cleaned signals by the intona goes directly to the dac 

Another datapoint - I also have a 7055-C and have this problem with the Holo RED, which is an RPi4. Likewise a bus powered USB hub in between fixes it. Apparently the original Intona 7054’s work without the need for a USB hub.

 

I have no issue with an UP Gateway and the Intona 7055-C. So, as said, likely a power/handshake issue between the RPi4 and Intona 3.0’s.

 

What I love about the Intona is that it offers peace of mind - for the most part, it doesn’t really matter what USB streamer/endpoint is behind it as long as it can deliver packets in a timely manner.

[Schafheide]

@MiskaThis is probably a very, very big ask for you -

For those of us that have a local music collection - maybe each album sounds best with unique HQPlayer settings - yes ?

If so, it would be useful (if it were possible) to automatically assign these specific HQPlayer settings to each file.

Obviously, it would be up to us, to perhaps specify, which setting configuration relates to each of our files (but this would only need to be done once).

Just a thought.

[AudioDoctor]

Miska, perhaps you can explain why "Freewheel" performs differently based on whether the file is on my local network or coming from Qobuz?

[Miska]

38 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Miska, perhaps you can explain why "Freewheel" performs differently based on whether the file is on my local network or coming from Qobuz?

 

What is the access method / source for local network part?

 

[AudioDoctor]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

 

What is the access method / source for local network part?

 

 

SMB share from a ZFS VDEV

[Miska]

Just now, AudioDoctor said:

SMB share from a ZFS VDEV

 

Mounted SMB shares are handled just like any local storage. From HQPlayer's perspective it is no different from local HDD/SSD.

 

IOW, it is handled completely different way than a network stream.

 

[AudioDoctor]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Mounted SMB shares are handled just like any local storage. From HQPlayer's perspective it is no different from local HDD/SSD.

 

IOW, it is handled completely different way than a network stream.

 

 

That would be why. Thanks Miska.

[Gato]

On 2/22/2023 at 5:07 PM, Miska said:

 

Would need to check where lm-sensors gets it. Probably one needs to load correct kernel module at least. But looking at my machines, most don't have fan speeds available.

 

Will HQPlayer OS have the kernel module in question loaded in a future version?

[Miska]

28 minutes ago, Gato said:

Will HQPlayer OS have the kernel module in question loaded in a future version?

 

I didn't find anything to test with on regular distros yet. I can see some fans like GPU fans on some of my machines. But most of the regular ones don't appear.

 

[Account Closed]

Jussi, I was looking at the Holo Audio Red and I have a question. Just wondering, since it supports multiple streaming services and your NAA, if it could be used as an input NAA to HQP on another machine. That machine could then output HQP processed music via another separate NAA to a DAC in the normal manner. I guess what I am describing would be a reverse flow NAA from the Red and a forward flow out of the HQP machine. For it to work, the Red would have to be able to run your NAA and the other software used to obtain the music concurrently. I don't think there would be any network problems as this is essentially what Roon does when the HQP machine's ip is entered into Roon. It would be a way to access two music services that Roon does not have. I know you have a Red so you should be able to tell.

 

Thanks for considering.

[Miska]

19 hours ago, bobflood said:

Jussi, I was looking at the Holo Audio Red and I have a question. Just wondering, since it supports multiple streaming services and your NAA, if it could be used as an input NAA to HQP on another machine. That machine could then output HQP processed music via another separate NAA to a DAC in the normal manner. I guess what I am describing would be a reverse flow NAA from the Red and a forward flow out of the HQP machine.

 

Technically you can set it up such way. NAA v4 introduced also input side. Best input hardware device to go with it would be RME ADI-2 Pro. It needs some manual setup though, so you would first need to configure these things on a regular RPi4, or at least enable ssh access on the microSD so that you can remotely configure it. Since Red doesn't have display connections.

 

Note though that the USB Type-B port on Red is not going to the RPi, instead it goes straight to the DDC.

 

[Account Closed]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Technically you can set it up such way. NAA v4 introduced also input side. Best input hardware device to go with it would be RME ADI-2 Pro. It needs some manual setup though, so you would first need to configure these things on a regular RPi4, or at least enable ssh access on the microSD so that you can remotely configure it. Since Red doesn't have display connections.

 

Note though that the USB Type-B port on Red is not going to the RPi, instead it goes straight to the DDC.

 

Thanks, what I was hoping for was that HQP Desktop could see the input NAA as a device under the input section that it could attach to just like it sees the output NAA as a device it can attach to. I was hoping to avoid all the extra hardware and configuration. I will just stay with Roon for now. It would be really great if you could get Deezer for the client. That is the one I would like to use instead of Tidal. Thanks again.

[Miska]

7 minutes ago, bobflood said:

Thanks, what I was hoping for was that HQP Desktop could see the input NAA as a device under the input section that it could attach to just like it sees the output NAA as a device it can attach to.

 

Yes, that's what it already does...

 

7 minutes ago, bobflood said:

I was hoping to avoid all the extra hardware and configuration.

 

Someone would need to make a suitable hardware then. I'm not horribly eager to become a hardware manufacturer too. I have enough work on the software side. Let's see who of the hardware manufacturers will be first to offer input NAA.

 

7 minutes ago, bobflood said:

It would be really great if you could get Deezer for the client.

 

I can ask them. But so far just Qobuz and HRA.

 

[Account Closed]

5 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yes, that's what it already does...

 

 

Someone would need to make a suitable hardware then. I'm not horribly eager to become a hardware manufacturer too. I have enough work on the software side. Let's see who of the hardware manufacturers will be first to offer input NAA.

 

 

I can ask them. But so far just Qobuz and HRA.

 

I had hoped that the Red could easily operate as an input NAA. If there was a good input NAA available then one could attach it to any computer, select it as the output device as if it was an external DAC, select it as the input device under HQP (on a separate computer) and then send anything that computer could receive to HQP for processing and then out to the selected output NAA and DAC. HQP would in effect be the "man in the middle". I know it is probably too much to ask but one can hope. Maybe one of the manufacturers will listen. Thanks 

[Miska]

7 minutes ago, bobflood said:

I had hoped that the Red could easily operate as an input NAA. If there was a good input NAA available then one could attach it to any computer, select it as the output device as if it was an external DAC, select it as the input device under HQP (on a separate computer) and then send anything that computer could receive to HQP for processing and then out to the selected output NAA and DAC.

 

That's the way it works, but depends how you connect to the computer. The NAA needs to have some kind of input hardware. Right now, Red doesn't have any, unless you plug in some external device that can do for example S/PDIF, AES/EBU and/or analog, like RME ADI-2 Pro for example.

 

7 minutes ago, bobflood said:

HQP would in effect be the "man in the middle". I know it is probably too much to ask but one can hope.

 

That's how I was today playing Apple Music from iPad.

 

iPad -> Apple's USB3 adapter dongle -> Matrix Audio X/SPDIF2 -> HQPlayer server with RME HDSPe AIO and running Windows 11 as OS. Output is through UP Gateway as a NAA to Holo Spring 3 DAC running at DSD512. No input side NAA in this case, instead direct input. But it could be as well behind a NAA.

 

It can automatically switch input rates when Apple Music HiRes happens to change format.

 

7 minutes ago, bobflood said:

Maybe one of the manufacturers will listen.

 

I've talked to number of manufacturers. Not sure if anybody is interested though.

 

[Account Closed]

7 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

That's the way it works, but depends how you connect to the computer. The NAA needs to have some kind of input hardware. Right now, Red doesn't have any, unless you plug in some external device that can do for example S/PDIF, AES/EBU and/or analog, like RME ADI-2 Pro for example.

 

 

That's how I was today playing Apple Music from iPad.

 

iPad -> Apple's USB3 adapter dongle -> Matrix Audio X/SPDIF2 -> HQPlayer server with RME HDSPe AIO and running Windows 11 as OS. Output is through UP Gateway as a NAA to Holo Spring 3 DAC running at DSD512. No input side NAA in this case, instead direct input. But it could be as well behind a NAA.

 

It can automatically switch input rates when Apple Music HiRes happens to change format.

 

 

I've talked to number of manufacturers. Not sure if anybody is interested though.

 

I am guessing from this that it is not possible to just use USB from the output of the computer to a USB input on the NAA device and then over the network to HQP.

[Miska]

4 minutes ago, bobflood said:

I am guessing from this that it is not possible to just use USB from the output of the computer to a USB input on the NAA device and then over the network to HQP.

 

Please note that there are two types of USB endpoints. USB Hosts and USB Devices. USB Host has a type-A port and USB Device has a type-B port. You cannot connect two A's together nor two B's together.

 

Type-C can be either one, which is negotiated between the devices. Usually most Type-C ports are either Host or Device ports.

 

Some embedded SoC's have dual-role ports, like UP Gateway that can be switched between host and device mode.

 

Holo Red has one Host port (type-A) that is connected to RPi4 CM. And then it has one Device port (type-B) that is connected to the DDC device that outputs SPDIF/AES/I2S. There are no Device ports reaching the RPI4. Although RPi4 hardware has also Device side functionality.

 

Normal PC/Mac hardware doesn't have Device side hardware at all. So most of such can never be USB "inputs". They can be only Host devices. Then there are bunch of ARM and Atom SoC's that have both.

 

Then another aspect is S/PDIF, AES/EBU or I2S input. These kind of things you can connect to a PC/Mac in various ways. However, only small subset can be "clock slaved" so that input sample rate would automatically follow the source. I have created such driver capability for the RME ADI-2 line for Linux. Thanks to the special non-standard stuff RME has implemented to enable this in first place.

 

[Account Closed]

20 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Please note that there are two types of USB endpoints. USB Hosts and USB Devices. USB Host has a type-A port and USB Device has a type-B port. You cannot connect two A's together nor two B's together.

 

Type-C can be either one, which is negotiated between the devices. Usually most Type-C ports are either Host or Device ports.

 

Some embedded SoC's have dual-role ports, like UP Gateway that can be switched between host and device mode.

 

Holo Red has one Host port (type-A) that is connected to RPi4 CM. And then it has one Device port (type-B) that is connected to the DDC device that outputs SPDIF/AES/I2S. There are no Device ports reaching the RPI4. Although RPi4 hardware has also Device side functionality.

 

Normal PC/Mac hardware doesn't have Device side hardware at all. So most of such can never be USB "inputs". They can be only Host devices. Then there are bunch of ARM and Atom SoC's that have both.

 

Then another aspect is S/PDIF, AES/EBU or I2S input. These kind of things you can connect to a PC/Mac in various ways. However, only small subset can be "clock slaved" so that input sample rate would automatically follow the source. I have created such driver capability for the RME ADI-2 line for Linux. Thanks to the special non-standard stuff RME has implemented to enable this in first place.

 

I knew it was way more complicated than my simplification. Thanks for the detailed description. With the Red I thought maybe that there would be a USB device port could be used but alas not. We all get so used to seeing USB B ports on the DACs we use that the distinction gets blurred. What I also was wondering is if it would be possible for the input NAA software to pick up the audio data directly from the host if they were both running concurrently on the same machine at the kernel level perhaps. That would eliminate the connection hardware issue (maybe). I guess that these are issues for the future as it seems there are no easy solutions right now.

[Fredc]

On 3/3/2023 at 8:04 PM, Schafheide said:

@MiskaThis is probably a very, very big ask for you -

For those of us that have a local music collection - maybe each album sounds best with unique HQPlayer settings - yes ?

If so, it would be useful (if it were possible) to automatically assign these specific HQPlayer settings to each file.

Obviously, it would be up to us, to perhaps specify, which setting configuration relates to each of our files (but this would only need to be done once).

Just a thought.

This can be achieved by allowing adding custom tags to files in the local library corresponding to HQPlayer setting fields such as Filter, Sample Rate etc. When playing a file, HQPlayer can check these tags first to see if value had been added and use them (e.g. Sinc-LI for a specfic file instead of default). If the custom tag field is empty, it can use default. Geoffrey Armstrong did something along those line in his Jriver HQPlayer integration, using Jriver custom tags for HQPlayer setting fields.  But he had not worked on it for sometime and it's kind of outdated. This integration has also got the problems of only working on Windows and Jim of Jriver is dead against integration with other audio players as output of Jriver. Other option is to do this in the Roon HQPlayer integration.

 

 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, bobflood said:

What I also was wondering is if it would be possible for the input NAA software to pick up the audio data directly from the host if they were both running concurrently on the same machine at the kernel level perhaps. That would eliminate the connection hardware issue (maybe). I guess that these are issues for the future as it seems there are no easy solutions right now.

 

Yes, that is possible with a loopback driver, similar way as locally on the HQPlayer server. Note though that typically you need to change the input rate manually every time the source rate changes. Because most OS audio stacks don't support slaving the sample rate to external source, instead of setting by the application.

 

[bogi]

17 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yes, that is possible with a loopback driver, similar way as locally on the HQPlayer server. Note though that typically you need to change the input rate manually every time the source rate changes. Because most OS audio stacks don't support slaving the sample rate to external source, instead of setting by the application.

 

Virtual Audio Cable on Windows allows to set sample rate range so it is able to adapt. It supports WASAPI so my guess is it could be used with any streaming app with WASAPI output to connect it to NAA input. But I never tried how it would work with NAA.