Speaker positioning and setup.

[bdiament]

Hi Jens,

 

In addition to the out of tune "bass", the low frequencies will "lag" (behind the "beat") and also note there will be less low-level detail overall. All of this is greatly helped by minimizing room excitation (i.e. moving away from the walls).

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[mwheelerk]

Regarding the Rule of Thirds and the Golden Ratio calculations what do you do regarding distance from rear wall in a circumstance like mine? Remarkably when I decided to give this a look with my system the inside edge of my speakers were exactly 1/3 of the length of the wall they are placed upon. However I live in a small two story town home/condo. The lower living space is really one large room encompassing the living area, dining room, and kitchen (along with a utility room, bathroom and laundry off a small hall to one side). Using the Rule of Thirds I would essentially have the speakers sticking in my face about halfway into the living space. I guess this is one of those less than ideal situations for speaker placement that many of us probably live with that cannot have a dedicated listening space. My front speaker edges are 36" from the wall behind them.

[bdiament]

Hi mwheelerk,

 

Regarding the Rule of Thirds and the Golden Ratio calculations what do you do regarding distance from rear wall in a circumstance like mine? Remarkably when I decided to give this a look with my system the inside edge of my speakers were exactly 1/3 of the length of the wall they are placed upon. However I live in a small two story town home/condo. The lower living space is really one large room encompassing the living area, dining room, and kitchen (along with a utility room, bathroom and laundry off a small hall to one side). Using the Rule of Thirds I would essentially have the speakers sticking in my face about halfway into the living space. I guess this is one of those less than ideal situations for speaker placement that many of us probably live with that cannot have a dedicated listening space. My front speaker edges are 36" from the wall behind them.

 

While I think the difference is significant (meaning I find 1/3 points the best by far, with anything else a somewhat distant second), when inside (toward center) front corners at the 1/3 points are not possible, my next choice would be the next odd fraction: I'd leave the speakers with 1/3 the length of the wall behind them, between the speakers and try the inside front corners at the 1/5 point for the dimension the speakers are facing.

 

Can you try that to see/hear what results?

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[mwheelerk]

Hi mwheelerk,

 

 

 

While I think the difference is significant (meaning I find 1/3 points the best by far, with anything else a somewhat distant second), when inside (toward center) front corners at the 1/3 points are not possible, my next choice would be the next odd fraction: I'd leave the speakers with 1/3 the length of the wall behind them, between the speakers and try the inside front corners at the 1/5 point for the dimension the speakers are facing.

 

Can you try that to see/hear what results?

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

The overall dimension of the space is 17' 6" x 34' with the speakers along the 17' length and the inside edge to inside edge of the speakers at 70". If I understand correctly that would mean the distance from the rear wall would be over 11' placing them within 1' of my sitting position and well into the living space.

[bdiament]

Hi mwheelerk,

 

The overall dimension of the space is 17' 6" x 34' with the speakers along the 17' length and the inside edge to inside edge of the speakers at 70". If I understand correctly that would mean the distance from the rear wall would be over 11' placing them within 1' of my sitting position and well into the living space.

 

With the 17'6" wall behind them and the speakers facing down the 34' dimension, yes, room interaction will be minimized with the speakers a bit over 11' from the wall behind them. (I would relocated the listening position.)

 

Of course, if you use the 1/5 dimension, the front inside corners of the speakers would be about 81.6" (or about 6.8') from the wall behind them.

 

Either way, I'd place the listening position at something like 105 - 110% of the distance between left speaker center and right speaker center. Once the speakers are in their final place and the listening position in the "neighborhood", I've found that leaning forward and backward while listening will be akin to changing the focus on a camera lens, moving to either side of the correct focus. There is a position where everything "snaps" into focus and you find you're listening past the system and room (to the extent they allow it), all the way to the recording itself.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[mayhem13]

........or do a custom, high directive in wall speaker installation. Less diffraction, boundary excitation and certainly more 'multi purpose space' friendly. On the inexpensive side, Magnepan offers some great options while Wisdom speakers are intensely engineered and will impress even the most discerning ears.

[Encore]

In addition to the out of tune "bass", the low frequencies will "lag" (behind the "beat") and also note there will be less low-level detail overall. All of this is greatly helped by minimizing room excitation (i.e. moving away from the walls).

 

Yes, even though it's it good now, I'm sure it can get better. Moving the speakers farther away from the walls will require subwoofers (or a speaker w more bass output), and I am contemplating that. For now, I prefer "lagging and out-of-tune"* bass to no bass ;-)

 

*Quotation marks because it's actually the best bass I've ever had, and it is better than the bass I've heard in most other systems, although I have yet to hear an optimally placed system in a well-treated room.

[Mihnea]

Of course, my gear doesn't know (or seem to care) what music is being played at a given moment.

 

I've never heard a setup that was great for one type of music, that wasn't also great for another type.

Or a setup that wasn't good for one type of music that *was* good for another.

 

Regardless of price or design, every good setup I've heard treated any signal passing through it the same way.

And every bad setup did too.

 

It is the listeners that seem to differ. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

From what I've read on tube traps they recommend pulling the tubes several inches away from corners when listening to classical music in order to increase a bit the reverberations, which seem to favor this type of music.

 

I haven't tried this myself since I have no space for moving my tube traps, but would be interested to know if others have fiddled with them and noticed any improvements.

 

Mihnea

[bdiament]

Hi Mihnea,

 

From what I've read on tube traps they recommend pulling the tubes several inches away from corners when listening to classical music in order to increase a bit the reverberations, which seem to favor this type of music.

 

I haven't tried this myself since I have no space for moving my tube traps, but would be interested to know if others have fiddled with them and noticed any improvements.

 

Mihnea

 

I believe there might be some misunderstanding there. Pulling the traps out of the corners will increase the amount of room resonance, not reverberation, which should come from the recording anyway and not a ringing room.

 

On the contrary: properly placed traps allow us to hear more of the low level detail and spatial cues (and yes, reverberation) contained in the recording because the room isn't getting in the way.

 

In my own studio/listening room and in all the others I know of that use similar traps (whether ASC's wonderful design or the do-it-yourself variety), proper trap placement for rock, classical, folk, jazz, bluegrass or hip hop is exactly the same. In other words, with the right placement, one hears past the room and system, to the recording itself. (Of course, if one seeks something other than this, another approach must be taken.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Mihnea]

In my experience in a small room with all walls made of reinforced concrete is that treating the first reflections on the side walls made sense, but only those produced by the speaker nearer to that wall. In other words, I installed only 2 acoustic panels, one on each side wall. And one on the rear wall behind the listing position.

 

Adding the second set of panels on the side walls seemed to over damp the sound, so I took them off.

 

It could be that my speakers are small bookshelf speakers on stands that they do not require acoustic treatment for the second reflection point.

[bdiament]

Hi Mihnea,

 

In my experience in a small room with all walls made of reinforced concrete is that treating the first reflections on the side walls made sense, but only those produced by the speaker nearer to that wall. In other words, I installed only 2 acoustic panels, one on each side wall. And one on the rear wall behind the listing position.

 

Adding the second set of panels on the side walls seemed to over damp the sound, so I took them off.

 

It could be that my speakers are small bookshelf speakers on stands that they do not require acoustic treatment for the second reflection point.

 

I think it is more a matter of how large the panel is in relation to how large the reflection area is.

Many folks will "pad" too much area and then blame the whole idea of absorbing early reflections, instead of the idea of absorbing much more than the early reflections.

 

One way to be sure is to enlist an assistant to hold a mirror against the wall, while you are seated in the listening position. With the mirror at your seated eye level, the assistant moves the mirror along the wall until you see a reflection of a speaker. *Only* the area where you see the speaker needs to be treated for early reflections.

 

A properly treated room will never sound over damped or "dead". You can even tell before the music plays, with just ordinary conversation. (With experience, you can get a good idea even when there is silence.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Mihnea]

Hi Mihnea,

 

 

 

I think it is more a matter of how large the panel is in relation to how large the reflection area is.

Many folks will "pad" too much area and then blame the whole idea of absorbing early reflections, instead of the idea of absorbing much more than the early reflections.

 

One way to be sure is to enlist an assistant to hold a mirror against the wall, while you are seated in the listening position. With the mirror at your seated eye level, the assistant moves the mirror along the wall until you see a reflection of a speaker. *Only* the area where you see the speaker needs to be treated for early reflections.

 

A properly treated room will never sound over damped or "dead". You can even tell before the music plays, with just ordinary conversation. (With experience, you can get a good idea even when there is silence.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

Hi Barry,

 

That's exactly what I did to find and mark those first reflections on the side walls.

 

I am using acoustic panels from GIK, which are not too wide at all, but I found that using only one pair of panels to address the first reflections closer to the speakers and leave the second reflection points untreated (the first reflection caused by the left speaker on the right wall and right speaker of the left wall) produces a more lively and enjoyable sound.

 

Again, it might be due to the fact that I use smaller speakers and also due to my couch being placed along the right wall, with its backrest acting like an absorbent for mids and highs.

 

My room is not even due to furniture placement and also due to how I installed my 2 columns of tube traps in only 2 out of the 4 corners, one in front-right corner and one in the rear-left corner. And they also absorb some of the mids and highs, making the whole business even more uneven :-).

 

But overall I am happy with the result.

[bdiament]

Hi Mihnea,

 

...But overall I am happy with the result.

 

That is what counts. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[latitude94941]

In my experience in a small room with all walls made of reinforced concrete

 

Bear in mind that rooms with concrete walls behave quite differently than those constructed from Sheetrock on studs, since the walls will not resonate with the low frequencies and will reflect them back into the room.

 

This can create standing waves and other problems that need to be addressed. As a bass player, I once went to audition for a band that rehearsed in a studio with concrete block walls. While this made the neighbors happy, I was not--certain notes on the fretboard would just disappear into the "mix" as if I had never played them.

[Viola]

My speakers are place on the long wall in my living room. I manage to place the right speaker 1/3 of the room 1/7 from the back wall measuring the inside corner of the speaker(Kef xq-5). My prob is that my seating position is 10inchs to the right from the middle of the room. That means that the left speaker can't be 1/3-1/7 like my right speaker. Any suggestions?

[wgb113]

Hi mwheelerk,

 

 

 

With the 17'6" wall behind them and the speakers facing down the 34' dimension, yes, room interaction will be minimized with the speakers a bit over 11' from the wall behind them. (I would relocated the listening position.)

 

Of course, if you use the 1/5 dimension, the front inside corners of the speakers would be about 81.6" (or about 6.8') from the wall behind them.

 

Either way, I'd place the listening position at something like 105 - 110% of the distance between left speaker center and right speaker center. Once the speakers are in their final place and the listening position in the "neighborhood", I've found that leaning forward and backward while listening will be akin to changing the focus on a camera lens, moving to either side of the correct focus. There is a position where everything "snaps" into focus and you find you're listening past the system and room (to the extent they allow it), all the way to the recording itself.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

 

Barry,

 

With regards to the listening position, is the 105-110% guide:

 

1) the distance from the driver center to the ear when seated.

2) the distance from the plane of the drivers to the ear when seated.

3) the distance from the rear wall behind the listener to the ear when seated.

 

I've always thought the measurement in #3 above should be the same as the distance from the driver to the front wall (1/3). That is currently how I have my room set up and the bass seems light.

[bdiament]

Hi wgb113,

 

Barry,

 

With regards to the listening position, is the 105-110% guide:

 

1) the distance from the driver center to the ear when seated.

2) the distance from the plane of the drivers to the ear when seated.

3) the distance from the rear wall behind the listener to the ear when seated.

 

I've always thought the measurement in #3 above should be the same as the distance from the driver to the front wall (1/3). That is currently how I have my room set up and the bass seems light.

 

I always thought of it as #2, the plane of the drivers (of either speaker) to the ear.

 

However, please note that I say this is a *starting* point. Leaning forward and backward from this point should act like the audio equivalent of rotating a lens on a camera, passing from inside focus, to focus, to outside focus and back. (Using a true stereo recording will make this more apparent than a typical mulit-mono studio type recording.) With the speakers properly placed, there should be a point in your forward to back motion where everything "snaps" into focus. That is (to me) the ideal listening position.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[bdiament]

Hi Viola,

 

My speakers are place on the long wall in my living room. I manage to place the right speaker 1/3 of the room 1/7 from the back wall measuring the inside corner of the speaker(Kef xq-5). My prob is that my seating position is 10inchs to the right from the middle of the room. That means that the left speaker can't be 1/3-1/7 like my right speaker. Any suggestions?

 

Can't you move the listening position 10 inches to the left? (Seems like a short distance to me.)

If not, I'd probably adjust the speakers to the listening position. (Or place the speakers symmetrically and change the volume balance....It really depends on what compromise you find the most agreeable. I'd just sit in the middle.)

 

I'd also recommend avoiding odd fractions higher than 1/5, which is already a significant compromise (in my view) from 1/3.

It seems like 1/7 can put the speaker (or listener) quite close to the wall, unless the room is very large. As I always say, "Every foot from the wall adds (at least) $1000 to the sound." ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Encore]

I've always thought the measurement in #3 above should be the same as the distance from the driver to the front wall (1/3). That is currently how I have my room set up and the bass seems light.

 

Could it be that many speakers are voiced too light in the bass? Perhaps manufacturers expect that only few customers are able to give them enough breathing space?

[bdiament]

Hi Jens,

 

Could it be that many speakers are voiced too light in the bass? Perhaps manufacturers expect that only few customers are able to give them enough breathing space?

 

It could be true of *some* manufacturers, certainly not all. I've heard too many speakers that deliver fine, pitch defined, dynamic, focused bass when placed properly.

 

Again, I submit that what one hears with less than optimal placement is not more bass but more *room*. It would be more bass if it was the bass contained in the program material. In fact, it is more *room*, both delayed in time and out of tune with the bass in the recording. (I believe this last is something many will not notice, as many do not notice how out of tune a great many pop instrumentalists and vocalists are.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[mayhem13]

Could it be that many speakers are voiced too light in the bass? Perhaps manufacturers expect that only few customers are able to give them enough breathing space?

 

It's been my experience that almost every speaker leaves some useful bass extension behind, but instead 'depends' on room gain to tilt the bottom end response. I call or the audiophool tilt as now the midrange and highs are over compensating, resulting in all the blah blah blah....airy, detail, warmth, fast, smooth and whatever B.S. one can think of. Bass below 100hz is difficult to get right granted, so mfgrs ignore it instead.

 

Wanna hear amazing bass response?...the recipe is pretty simple and doesn't require any treatments at all. Four 10-12" sealed subwoofers using high excursion, low distortion drivers each placed close to the four corners of the room. Smooth response everywhere you look with response below 20hz for the pipe organ crew. I DIY'ed mine for around $1500 which commercially would cost over $5k. The two front subs are the stands for the three way monitors and the two rear are built as end tables. Not even my wife knows there's subs in there and she uses the theater room all the time.

 

So the choice is the end user....spend good money on tube trap thingies that are surely low on the WAF that have no function other than to damp room modes or spend equal $$$ on actual, usable response that will amaze. Home Theater designers are so far ahead of the audiophile crowd on LF reproduction, it's saddening.

[bdiament]

Hi mayhem,

 

...Four 10-12" sealed subwoofers using high excursion, low distortion drivers each placed close to the four corners of the room...

 

This will guarantee the maximum excitation of every resonant mode the room has.

If that is the goal, I can understand feeling that home theater designers are "far ahead" of audiophiles.

 

It really depends on what timing and pitch one wants to hear in the low frequencies: that contained in the recording or something else. I believe a successful system is the one that fulfills the goals of the listener, whatever those are.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[ssgp2]

Thank you Barry for the time spent on this forum/thread.

I'll get off my butt and play with my speakers position and room treatment.

[Viola]

Thanks Barry!

 

Any recording or music file for adjusting toe -in?

I am pretty close to achieve great setup but I am pretty sure the lens of my soundstage can improve.

[bdiament]

Hi Viola,

 

Thanks Barry!

 

Any recording or music file for adjusting toe -in?

I am pretty close to achieve great setup but I am pretty sure the lens of my soundstage can improve.

 

To check "focus" of an audio system, I always want a recording that has focus. (This eliminates typical multi-mono studio productions but using real stereo recordings can make finding precise focus in a system fast and easy.) I'd go for something that is recorded in real stereo, using a minimal number of microphones.

 

Among my favorites are recordings by Keith Johnson (for Reference Recordings), Bob Fine (for Mercury Living Presence) and, if I may say so, my own recordings (for Soundkeeper Recordings) because I stood at the position of the microphone array and have the real thing as a reference for comparison.

 

Some of my favorites are Keith Johnson's recordings of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" as well as his recording of Rutter's "Requiem".

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio