Speaker positioning and setup.

[Encore]

I think good arguments can be made for "controlled dispersion".

Certainly the speakers I've come to like the most tend to have reduced output to the sides, not just vertically.

 

OK. Interesting to hear ... Thanks.

[mayhem13]

These are generalizations......every speaker is different in its patterns....some wildly so. What is usually similiar is midbass and bass which for the most part is omnidirectional, dependant on the driver's size. The smaller the driver, the less directive the lower in response. 15-18" woofer do much better, but are, today most often impractical considering the value of square footage.

 

For the most part though, typical home speakers have moderate to poor vertical directivity, and not much better horizontally. You need horns, waveguides or dipoles to improve it. That's why often recommend Amphion speakers in many of my replies as the waveguide loaded tweeter is much more neutral in moderate sized spaces. While its directivity begins to collapse around 2.5khz, it's MUCH better than the usual flush mounted dome that splays HF content around like a paint splatter.

 

Admittedly, many people enjoy a very 'lively' space that creates reverb, delay or an overall greater sense of soundstage....but rest assured, the reflected sound is never as precise or accurate as the fundamental. To each their own I guess and to this end, i strongly agree with Barry as I'd rather hear the fundamental over the room.

[mayhem13]

OK. Interesting to hear ... Thanks.

 

Maggie's are terrible in the vertical above the speaker!.....which is a paradox of course! Lol

[bdiament]

Hi mayhem13,

 

Maggie's are terrible in the vertical above the speaker!.....which is a paradox of course! Lol

 

I must be lucky then as I don't listen to them from above my speakers. (Then again, I don't believe they were designed to be listened to from the null above the speakers.)

Come to think of it, I've never listened to any speaker from above the speaker, finding much to prefer in listening to them from the front.

 

When you sit in front of Maggies, they are simply magical. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Viola]

Wow, this thread is amazing! I just read through the whole thread with my system on playing Sibelius Symphony #2 and it was revelatory. I am about to try Bdiament method. Great forum guys!

[dmgbat]

I just tried a modified Barry Diament method (1/3 in between speakers; 1/5 behind speakers; listening position = 110% of in between measurement). preliminary impression: Mother of god. It is not as if a veil has been lifted. Instead, it is as if (to borrow from Barry) I am listening to stereo for the first time.

[bdiament]

Hi dmgbat,

 

I just tried a modified Barry Diament method (1/3 in between speakers; 1/5 behind speakers; listening position = 110% of in between measurement). preliminary impression: Mother of god. It is not as if a veil has been lifted. Instead, it is as if (to borrow from Barry) I am listening to stereo for the first time.

 

How wonderful to read about your experience. (I have often said "Every foot from the wall adds (at least) $1000 to the sound." ;-})

 

If you have the flexibility in your room and really want to hear it taken all the way, try 1/3 between, 1/3 behind (as measured from the front), listening from ~105-110% of measurement from left speaker center to right speaker center. Start by aiming speakers at center of wall behind listener. (Some speakers need a bit more toe-in).

 

But even if you can't try that, I'm so glad the position you describe has provided such nice benefits.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[dmgbat]

Thanks, Barry. Unfortunately, I probably can't move the speakers much further out from the wall as I don't have a dedicated listening room. So, I'll likely have to stick w/ 1/5 (as measured from the front). In terms of my listening position, I'm currently at 110% of the measurement from the center of the left speaker to the center of the right speaker. (Incidentally, I measured the 1/3rd distance from the inside edge of each speakers - can you confirm that I was correct to do so?) And the speakers are aimed at the center wall behind the listener, although I'll play w/ toe-in. I may up-load some photos later - hopefully you and others won't mind taking a look at my set-up and room treatments and making additional suggestions.

 

Thanks,

Danny

 

Hi dmgbat,

 

 

 

How wonderful to read about your experience. (I have often said "Every foot from the wall adds (at least) $1000 to the sound." ;-})

 

If you have the flexibility in your room and really want to hear it taken all the way, try 1/3 between, 1/3 behind (as measured from the front), listening from ~105-110% of measurement from left speaker center to right speaker center. Start by aiming speakers at center of wall behind listener. (Some speakers need a bit more toe-in).

 

But even if you can't try that, I'm so glad the position you describe has provided such nice benefits.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[bdiament]

Hi Danny,

 

...I'm currently at 110% of the measurement from the center of the left speaker to the center of the right speaker. (Incidentally, I measured the 1/3rd distance from the inside edge of each speakers - can you confirm that I was correct to do so?) And the speakers are aimed at the center wall behind the listener, although I'll play w/ toe-in...

 

Yes, 1/3 room width between the inside (toward center) front corner of each speaker.

 

Some speakers, such as my Magnepans, placed with tweeters inboard, do better in my view, with a bit more toe-in.

The toe-in you have now (aimed at center of wall behind the listener) might be just right, though it is always a good idea to try variations to confirm this.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[dmgbat]

Thanks, Barry. Appreciate the help.

[Encore]

I think good arguments can be made for "controlled dispersion".

Certainly the speakers I've come to like the most tend to have reduced output to the sides, not just vertically.

 

Just read this from John Atkinson's Measurements section of Stereophile's review of the Wharfedale Jade7's:

"Bob also remarked on the Jade 7's excellent stereo imaging, which tends to be associated with lateral off-axis behavior that is smooth and even."

 

Is this at odds with your term "controlled dispersion"?

[Encore]

What I've found is that the materials and construction will change the *frequencies* of the resonant modes, not their physical locations and hence not the locations where they can be successfully treated. Pressure is always greatest at the boundaries, particularly where boundaries meet. Harmonics of the fundamental resonant modes occur at fractional lengths along these dimensions (first harmonic at 1/2 point, second harmonic at 1/4 points).

 

Maybe I just haven't experienced a room such as you describe. What I said above has been true in every room I've worked in for the past several decades, including domestic and studio situations where materials and dimensions have never been the same twice.

 

Barry, your replies in this thread and in Mihnea's earlier thread have been very enlightening, and I'm not questioning that the position of resonant modes can be calculated in a regular, rectangular room. However, I'm really curious how you would go about predicting them in a very irregular room like mine :-D What do you do when you encounter asymmetrical rooms?

[bdiament]

Hi Encore,

 

Just read this from John Atkinson's Measurements section of Stereophile's review of the Wharfedale Jade7's:

"Bob also remarked on the Jade 7's excellent stereo imaging, which tends to be associated with lateral off-axis behavior that is smooth and even."

 

Is this at odds with your term "controlled dispersion"?

 

Not at all. I think it fits perfectly.

 

With typical speakers, low frequencies will tend to radiate omnidirectionally while there is increasing "beaming" (narrowing dispersion) as the frequency goes up. This means lateral radiation (and reflections) will also have this tilt in frequency response.

 

One of the things which I believe makes full omni speakers appealing to some folks is the fact that lateral radiation (and reflections) don't have the tilt -- such a design tends to send all frequencies in all directions.

 

With a planar dipole, lateral (and vertical) radiation of all frequencies is miminized due to cancellation between the front and rear radiation. Here again, lateral radiation (and reflections) tend to be balanced in response (particularly if the designer has controlled the dispersion of the higher frequencies).

 

All of this is, in my view, not unrelated to how many microphones work and to why I tend to find certain types of mics better at capturing what occurs in their presence than other mics. In the case of microphones, the ones I find to do the best job at capturing an uneditorialized view of an auditory event tend to be omnidirectional in pickup pattern.

 

Most typical recordings are made with directional microphones -- mics that give priority to what is directly in front of them and less priority to sounds coming from the side and still less to sounds coming from behind them. If you look at the polar pickup response of this type of mic, what you'll see is that it still picks up low frequency sounds omnidirectionally. In fact, I have come to think of *all* microphones as being omnidirectional, with the so-called "directional" mics simply having much more coloration for off-axis sounds. In other words, they'll still "hear" off axis sounds but at a lower level and with a rolled off treble. (To prove this, speak into the back of a directional microphone and record the input. You'll find that the mic did indeed "hear" you, just with the coloration I described.)

 

Since sounds at a recording event will impinge on the mics from all directions (sounds from the instruments, sounds reflected from objects in the room, the room itself, etc.), many of these will end up being colored by directional microphones. To take it back to loudspeakers, if the dispersion is not controlled, i.e., even across the frequency range, what comes back from the room -- or what an off axis listener will hear, is colored. Note, it doesn't matter if the speakers are highly directional or not very directional or completely omnidirectional -- what counts is that the dispersion is controlled such that it is even across all the frequencies radiated by the speaker. When it isn't even, the discontinuities are audible.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[bdiament]

Hi Encore,

 

Barry, your replies in this thread and in Mihnea's earlier thread have been very enlightening, and I'm not questioning that the position of resonant modes can be calculated in a regular, rectangular room. However, I'm really curious how you would go about predicting them in a very irregular room like mine :-D What do you do when you encounter asymmetrical rooms?

 

As I said in the statement you quoted, "Pressure is always greatest at the boundaries, particularly where boundaries meet. Harmonics of the fundamental resonant modes occur at fractional lengths along these dimensions (first harmonic at 1/2 point, second harmonic at 1/4 points). " This does not require a symmetrical room.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Encore]

Note, it doesn't matter if the speakers are highly directional or not very directional or completely omnidirectional -- what counts is that the dispersion is controlled such that it is even across all the frequencies radiated by the speaker. When it isn't even, the discontinuities are audible.

 

Makes sense. Thanks. But am I understanding you correctly when in your previous answer you write that you prefer speakers w controlled dispersion that you by this mean speakers which have limited--although even--dispersion?

[Encore]

As I said in the statement you quoted, "Pressure is always greatest at the boundaries, particularly where boundaries meet. Harmonics of the fundamental resonant modes occur at fractional lengths along these dimensions (first harmonic at 1/2 point, second harmonic at 1/4 points). " This does not require a symmetrical room.

 

Well, in a room with an angled wall on one side, just where is the 1/2 point? ;-)

[bdiament]

Hi Encore,

 

Makes sense. Thanks. But am I understanding you correctly when in your previous answer you write that you prefer speakers w controlled dispersion that you by this mean speakers which have limited--although even--dispersion?

 

The speakers I've found to be most convincing (to my ears) all shared this characteristic, yes.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[bdiament]

Hi Encore,

 

Well, in a room with an angled wall on one side, just where is the 1/2 point? ;-)

 

Measure the length of that wall and divide the length by 2.

 

(If you think I might not be understanding what you mean, please post a "map" of the room.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Encore]

Measure the length of that wall and divide the length by 2.

 

(If you think I might not be understanding what you mean, please post a "map" of the room.)

 

You can see a picture of it here (scroll down a bit, click the first picture, which makes it open full size). In the short dimension of the room, especially in the narrower end of the room, I think there is no single 1/2 point, rather there is one for every distance from floor to ceiling.

 

Now, I've gone diagonal, as can be seen here (again, please scroll down a bit and click the picture), so I guess I'm then completely in trial-and-error land ;-)

 

All best,

Jens

[bdiament]

Hi Jens,

 

You can see a picture of it here (scroll down a bit, click the first picture, which makes it open full size). In the short dimension of the room, especially in the narrower end of the room, I think there is no single 1/2 point, rather there is one for every distance from floor to ceiling.

 

Now, I've gone diagonal, as can be seen here (again, please scroll down a bit and click the picture), so I guess I'm then completely in trial-and-error land ;-)

 

All best,

Jens

 

If I was treating that room I would use the 1/2 point using the floor dimension along that wall.

If I was going to add a treatment on the ceiling, I'd use the 1/2 point of the ceiling dimension along that wall.

 

Other observations:

It seems to me, in both arrangements, that the speakers are close to the wall. I'd use the first wall behind the speakers (rather than the corner which then acts as a type of "horn"). The difference I'd make though, would be to either move the gear completely away or make sure the speakers are well forward (toward the listener) from the table with the equipment.

 

I'd definitely move the speakers further from the corners (away from the walls in general).

 

Outside of a ceiling treatment, I'd still measure the length of that wall (along the floor) and use half of that at the 1/2 point.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Hipper]

I'd advise putting a dustbin on the left side too.

[Jim Smith]

IMO, still another thread wherein Barry provides realistic and meaningful advice!

 

Or maybe it's because I prefer omnis as well.

[Encore]

If I was treating that room I would use the 1/2 point using the floor dimension along that wall.

If I was going to add a treatment on the ceiling, I'd use the 1/2 point of the ceiling dimension along that wall.

 

Other observations:

It seems to me, in both arrangements, that the speakers are close to the wall. I'd use the first wall behind the speakers (rather than the corner which then acts as a type of "horn"). The difference I'd make though, would be to either move the gear completely away or make sure the speakers are well forward (toward the listener) from the table with the equipment.

 

I'd definitely move the speakers further from the corners (away from the walls in general).

 

Outside of a ceiling treatment, I'd still measure the length of that wall (along the floor) and use half of that at the 1/2 point.

 

Well, everything got better with the diagonal placement. Before getting there, however, spurred by your input in Mihnea's thread, I did have the speakers far from wall, which can be seen here (scroll down etc.). That's how I became aware of the soundstage that was possible, like hearing stereo for the first time. But that position killed the bass. I realize that the horn effect of the corner influences the sound, and that bass in theory should suffer--all I can say is that the current setup delivers the best sound (and bass) I've ever had.

 

The diagonal position brought back the bass (without boom*), and soundstage and imaging was even better than with the position in the picture in the link, which until that was like hearing stereo for the first time. As far as I can tell, first reflections now travel considerably farther before reaching my ears, especially in the right side, which is probably what gives the great soundstage.

 

*I've achieved some improvements since then which have made the bass a little more prominent, so I might try and move the speakers a little further from the wall.

 

All best,

Jens

[bdiament]

Hi Jens,

 

The side walls seem a bit close in that picture.

 

Without knowing exactly where the speakers and listening position were, it is impossible to say exactly what occurred.

That said, moving the speakers away from the walls only "kills" the added excitation of room resonances. These may *appear* to be bass (because they occur at low frequencies) but if you move the speakers back toward the wall, you might notice that what results is not more of the bass that is in the recording but instead, more *room*. (It doesn't have to sound boomy... just more "activity" in the low frequencies.) Listen carefully and you'll find this isn't even in tune with the bass in the record.

 

Just my view. What counts most of course, is that your system sounds good to *you*. If the current setup is doing it, you're all set. Now, just enjoy. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Encore]

That said, moving the speakers away from the walls only "kills" the added excitation of room resonances. These may *appear* to be bass (because they occur at low frequencies) but if you move the speakers back toward the wall, you might notice that what results is not more of the bass that is in the recording but instead, more *room*.

 

Yes, that effect was very clear when I played down the long dimension. I suspect that it is still the case to some degree, but somehow the benefits seem to outweigh the drawbacks.

 

As an aside, I can mention that after I posted my findings on the Danish site that I linked to, several others tried diagonal setups. One user already had quite extensive room treatments (in a regular room), and he reported that after trying it, there was no going back for him--in his room diagonal was so much better than every other setup he had tried. Several others posted that they already had diagonal setups and had found them to be superior. However, I should add that other users didn't get improvements with diagonal.

 

 

Listen carefully and you'll find this isn't even in tune with the bass in the record.

 

I will try that ...