Interested in what Barry D. thinks of Upcoming Zep Remaster

[bleedink]

Since B.D. has posted about his experience mastering these previously. I think on a posting about HOTH he said the CD he mastered was essentially what he'd heard on the analog tape. That's why I for one would love to hear his opinion on the new high res Zep remaster coming out next year and if he thinks something might be salvaged from the tapes that would be more satisfying than previous releases of this material. Probably the closest by proxy any of us will get to what the master tape 'really' sounds like. Love to hear from you Barry if you have time/inclination. Think others would as well.

[jtwrace]

Which ones did he remaster previously?

[bleedink]

I believe if memory serves and Barry isn't severely insulted if I am mistaken but I believe he did all of the original transfers to cd for everything up to HOTH, perhaps more? My terminology is often a bit off since I am not in any way an audio expert and only learned of Barry's accomplishments by being impressed by his responses on CA. It was only later I learned what a whiz the guy is. So please forgive me if I perhaps said he was responsible for a process I may have misnamed. I believe he transferred the original analog tapes to CD for at least up to HOTH maybe more. I am just a big fan of his comments on the site and my respect only grew as I learned more about him.

 

A search on his site seems to indicate he mastered LZ, but does not say which ones. Here's a quick synopsis from another site:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-barry-diament-soundkeeper-recordings

[bdiament]

Hi bleedink,

 

Since B.D. has posted about his experience mastering these previously. I think on a posting about HOTH he said the CD he mastered was essentially what he'd heard on the analog tape. That's why I for one would love to hear his opinion on the new high res Zep remaster coming out next year and if he thinks something might be salvaged from the tapes that would be more satisfying than previous releases of this material. Probably the closest by proxy any of us will get to what the master tape 'really' sounds like. Love to hear from you Barry if you have time/inclination. Think others would as well.

 

Thank you for your kindness.

I had the good fortune to create the original CD masters for most of the original Led Zeppelin catalog when I was the CD mastering department at Atlantic Records. The first Zep CD of which I'm aware was their fourth album (sometimes called "ZoSo"? the one that contained "Stairway to Heaven"), which was mastered for CD by Joe Sidore at Warner Brothers Studios in Los Angeles. Once Atlantic decided to put out the rest of the Zep catalog, I was tasked with the job, covering the others, from the first album through "Presence" and "Coda" (I believe the latter was the last of the original releases but I might be mistaken).

 

I might also be mistaken about this but I don't recall saying the "Houses of the Holy" CD I mastered was what I heard on the analog tape. All of the Zep CDs I did got at least some mild EQ; the tapes I was given to work with (as the overwhelming majority of studio creations I've heard over the years) needed a bit of help to flesh them out properly.

 

I've said elsewhere that it was a daily struggle with Atlantic, to get original masters for CD production. In those days, most of the time (there were exceptions) I was given either an "EQ'd/limited copy" created during vinyl mastering or, as was the case with the Zep albums, copies of indeterminate origin. I was told the originals were lost.

The tapes I used were, to the best of my knowledge, primarily 1:1 copies made by I know not whom or where. If I recall correctly, the last three ("In Through The Out Door", "Presence" and "Coda") *might* have been from EQ'd/limited 1630 (3/4" digital) tapes created when the vinyl was mastered.

 

The problem I have with 1:1 copies is, in the absence of knowing who made them and where, they can range anywhere from a clean-as-possible, flat transfer made through an immaculate system by a very careful engineer to something someone might *believe* (more likely *wish*) to be such but in fact was made through an inferior signal path using a playback machine that was not properly aligned, feeding a record machine improperly biased for the tape being used and/or where the record levels were set (much more often than not) too high.

 

All that said, as always, I treated each tape like it was gold and did my very best to bring out the best in that source. The playback machine was connected, using my own cables (balanced interconnects -designed by Bruce Brisson- from my own system) which I brought to work each day, going directly to the input of the equalizer I used and from their directly to the input of the Sony A-D in the CD mastering room. I kept the signal path short and bypassed the room's console and patch bay as I've always found benefit in doing so (with any console and any patch bay). In other words, the signal traveled a path only as long as necessary. As always with me, no dynamic compression was used - I sought to preserve the dynamics in the source.

 

This was the mid to late '80s - I forget the exact year(s) I did those CD masters. The State of the Art in CD mastering conversion technology at the time was Sony's 1630 system equipped with Apogee's retrofit filters.

 

Now, to the subject at hand:

I can't comment on the upcoming remasters as I have not heard them. The older remasters I've heard struck my ears as needlessly compressed dynamically and with a hyped treble. (As a matter of fact, I think that last sentence describes my personal response to *most* remasters I've heard - not only Zep but most by other artists as well.)

 

Of course, this is a matter of personal taste - I can only report my own experience. Other opinions I've read suggest others hear it differently, so I always suggest folks listen for themselves and draw their own conclusions.

 

I believe the same will be the case with any future remastering of this or any other catalog - some will like what they hear, others will prefer earlier releases, whatever their flaws. While newer converter technology certainly offers great benefits over what was available years ago, this only means the listener might get a clearer picture of what the mastering engineer creates. A carefully done remaster has the potential to provide better access to the performances captured on the source tapes. On the other hand, a remaster done with the goal of making a louder, brighter version than has ever been released before, will nowadays also be heard more clearly. In other words, as the "window" of the gear has gotten more transparent, it will better reveal the true nature of what is seen through it - a mastering that serves the music or one that doesn't.

 

I certainly hope for the former but in my opinion, for this to occur, the folks doing it are going to have to be willing to forego concerns about loudness - with the full understanding that this is best achieved with the playback volume control anyway. I'd like to see the mastering done with no regard for sounding "modern" (which to me, tends to mean the music is serving the technology rather than the other way 'round) but instead with no goal other than to best serve the music contained in those recordings.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[REShaman]

...I certainly hope for the former but in my opinion, for this to occur, the folks doing it are going to have to be willing to forego concerns about loudness - with the full understanding that this is best achieved with the playback volume control anyway. I'd like to see the mastering done with no regard for sounding "modern" (which to me, tends to mean the music is serving the technology rather than the other way 'round) but instead with no goal other than to best serve the music contained in those recordings.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

It is a privilege to have your ear and insights, inside information about Led Zeppelin catalog. Also as a purchaser of an abundance of product, I appreciate your insights into the results that have often left me dissatisfied but without specificity about would trigger my findings, i.e., my equipment is mediocre and this CD would sound better on a better system. I am better for the personal insights you provide us about what we love and have opinions galore.

 

Best,

Richard

[bdiament]

Hi Richard,

 

It is a privilege to have your ear and insights, inside information about Led Zeppelin catalog. Also as a purchaser of an abundance of product, I appreciate your insights into the results that have often left me dissatisfied but without specificity about would trigger my findings, i.e., my equipment is mediocre and this CD would sound better on a better system. I am better for the personal insights you provide us about what we love and have opinions galore.

 

Best,

Richard

 

As always, you are very kind. Thank you.

 

With regard to a CD sounding mediocre but perhaps better on a better system, one thing I've always noticed is that a well made recording is identifiable as such, regardless of the system on which it is played (and regardless of the format in which it has been encoded). Of course, while a better system always reveals more of what there is to hear, I find, if there is real Quality in the recording itself, any system will announce this.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[REShaman]

Hi Richard,

 

 

 

As always, you are very kind. Thank you.

 

With regard to a CD sounding mediocre but perhaps better on a better system, one thing I've always noticed is that a well made recording is identifiable as such, regardless of the system on which it is played (and regardless of the format in which it has been encoded). Of course, while a better system always reveals more of what there is to hear, I find, if there is real Quality in the recording itself, any system will announce this.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

Yes, I concur and have learned this over time. That you also allows us to peer into your experiences as a master producer adds yet another dimension to our understanding such that it is when revealed by an insider who values excellence and honesty.

Best,

Richard

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Forgive me. The email notifications didn't work. First its very kind of you to share your insights. I've always appreciated your comments and guidance. Internet is out so I'm using a tablet so this may be shorter response than you deserve. I agree these things are contingent on lots of other factors-including whether originals were found. Yeah they do seem to get brighter as the years go by. I'm a fan of Steve Wilson's recreations though they are heavy handed and bright he seems to be good at bringing out details that were lost to my ears before. I would suspect Page has the originals since they had an unheard of contract in those days. While not a fan of his previous remix perhaps something HR will salvage some sounds, particularly if he has the multis. Never been completely satisfied with sound of their albums though its some of my favorite music. Thanks so much for sharing your experience. Sure lots know about you--but for the newcomers this might be enlightening. Sounds like there might be some hope given that you can't be certain of which copies you'd been given.

[bdiament]

Hi bleedink,

 

While having the original mixes would be an advantage - if all other things are equal - I don't know if they are available.

I believe an earlier set of remasters claimed to use the original tapes but the person at Atlantic who delivered the tapes said they were the same tapes I was given. So, whether the originals have actually been found or not, I don't know. And *if* they were found, what condition are they in? This too, I don't know.

 

But in my opinion, what is much, much more important than whether original tapes or copies are used, is the approach taken to create the new masters. I've heard George Piros get more Life from third (or fourth) generation tapes than many mastering engineers get from original mixes. Let us hope an approach like George's graces any new Led Zep releases.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

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I'm sure. We've all heard phenomenal stuff from safety copies and the like, and originals that sounded terrible. Funny that they would make the claim as to the same copies being original. Of course I don't think Atlantic is even around so that perhaps complicates things more. This was one band that seemed mid career to have a pretty good idea of their importance in rock. Interesting to note that both PG and Coda were culled from previous albums outtakes. Coda was 1981? Seems that someone must have had something very usable on hand to create that. Neither was a typical go in the studio and record type of thing-they already existed in some form. That just makes me think there may be something out there. Really surprising that JP would have let the masters out of his hands let alone lose them. They just seemed to have an idea of their importance on some level. It's going to be Page doing the new ones as well so I am not sure how great he was at that sort of thing. I'm moving so may not be responding for a few days. Thanks for your insight and wonderful recollection. I find it interesting. Historically fascinating as well. You might well think of a book of your experiences. You keep quite a few of us very entertained-though that description doesn't do justice to the value of your contributions here.