NAD C390DD Direct Digital DAC/Amplifier

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

 

How does it sound. Neutral, neutral, and even more neutral. This is the most neutral DAC and amp combination I have heard - period - no SS steeliness, no valve warmth - all these adjectives simply do not apply. Its not as a fast as my Patek but still pretty darn fast - but it does not have that amps thinness and slight dryness either. How would I describe it - like a power version of the Metrum is my best guess at this stage. Very resolving with great slam - not as resolving as my Patek and PDX which is the most resolving thing I have heard to date in my system - but still really resovling. I think my Patek and Playback Designs could be faster again but I didn't try that DAC on my Patek - I used my Trafomatic SET when I heard that. My Naquadria it likely even faster again but it is being modded right now to accept standard cable terminations so can't check it out - that will need to wait until I get back to Brisbane.

 

Another interesting feature that the specs do not make clear is it in fact has pre-outs so you can use it as a DAC and have an upgrade path. I will check it out that way a bit later.

 

I am using its USB input right now but would really love to see what my Off-Ramp does - however its SPDIF is on the blink - possibly something broke due to twisting the cable on and off - it happened once before but don't really know until I can get a tech to look at it which needs to wait until I return to Brisbane where I have a tech I trust. I may be able to get it working with AES/EBU but need to get a cable.

 

I have not heard a DAC amp combination at this price point that I would rate better - it could perhaps be the leader at this price point. The Metrum with an Audiophellio and Patek costs about that but I think this may have the edge. A must audition against any DAC amp combination you were thinking of getting at about the $3k price point.

 

More to follow as listening continues.

 

Thanks

Bill

[saiku]

I heard this in a store when I was there to purchase a matching pre-amp for my Rotel amp (bought from AudioGon) and also to buy a DAC. If I had not already bought the Rotel amp, I would have bought this. Unit looks sleek and I'd say bests the combo I am using now. The only thing that made me balk was the upgrade path being not as convenient as buying separates. Sonically , it sounded great (thats all the audiophile lingo I can muster...I'm still new to this). Sounded better than anything they had hooked up in any combination in that listening room. I tried several combinations (Peachtree with Rotels, Peachtree IDac with other NAD integrated).

[bhobba]

I finally managed to get my Off-Ramp working via AES/EBU and it indeed makes a difference - not as great as the WFS or Metrum - but you most definitely can easily hear it over its internal USB.

 

The bass is better, greater detail is apparent, a slight treble glare is removed you do not notice until you hear it removed and it sounds slightly faster. My friend who does not like the amp compared to a Patek, which is demon fast, agreed it was indeed better and the improvements above were also apparent to his ears. However it was not enough for him to change his mind about it. My view is it is meatier than the Patek, which has a thin ephemeral quality and a slight dry character but, yea, is extremely fast. The bass, especially via the Off-Ramp, is indeed better, and I personally rate it above the combination of my Metrum and Patek, but I do prefer the Patek and my much more expensive PDX whose speed synergises with the Patek - however it is clear personal preferences will vary.

 

Should you get an Off-Ramp with one of these? I personally would but it raises the price to $5K and you can get some pretty good DAC and amp combinations for that price so a comparison against stuff in that price range is definitely advised - for example for that price you can get a Patek and PDX which to my ears is better. I would be remiss however if I did not mention that is to my ears - a very experienced audiophile of my acquaintance does not like that combination much at all - horses for courses. When I return to Brisbane a mate who has an Audiophilleo will allow it to be checked out on that and indeed hopefully he can borrow it and give his own write up which would be good because he had this amps bigger brother, the M2, in his system for a while. But from my previous experience with an Audiophilleo at only about $500.00 it would almost certainly be well worthwhile.

 

I tried the bass management in the NAD and can report it is excellent. I was able to integrate a subwoffer no problem and is a big plus for this amp. You can get two subwoffers and some small bookshelves for a system that easily gives all the bass you could want.

 

The HDMI inputs are also excellent - I watched in two channel home theater mode and it was very enjoyable - even my friend liked it that way for some reason - possibly because the extra meatiness made the vocals more intelligible. Combined with the subwoffer integration this is pretty much the perfect device for two channel home theater.

 

Thanks

Bill

[bhobba]

I heard this in a store when I was there to purchase a matching pre-amp for my Rotel amp (bought from AudioGon) and also to buy a DAC. If I had not already bought the Rotel amp, I would have bought this. Unit looks sleek and I'd say bests the combo I am using now. The only thing that made me balk was the upgrade path being not as convenient as buying separates. Sonically , it sounded great (thats all the audiophile lingo I can muster...I'm still new to this). Sounded better than anything they had hooked up in any combination in that listening room. I tried several combinations (Peachtree with Rotels, Peachtree IDac with other NAD integrated).

 

Oh yea it is well above that type of gear IMHO which is what I term mid fi - this is not to denegrate stuff like that, it's simply that I am used to more high end stuff at higher prices. IMHO this is a genuine high end bit of kit - subject of course to personal preferences.

 

I did a comparison of a Rotel 5 Channel amp fed by my upmarket PDX compared to this amp (via some VERY revealing speakers) - it was a joke - the Rotel was just so dull slow and boring - I am not as sensitive to speed as my friend but this level of 'slowness' was actually irritating.

 

Thinks

Bill

[bhobba]

Heard the NAD today on a speaker manufacturer I know reference system with some new speakers he is working on. It has power regeneration and conditioning and used $20K Mac501's as amps with some pretty impressive isolation platforms on all the stuff. Its a very transparent piece of kit. Anyway a preliminary comparison was done with a PDX, Playback Designs MPD3, and the NAD. To cut a long story short as far as what is relevant to this thread, the NAD was bit of a different beast in this rig - the hardness gone, the treble emphasis close to gone - and this was without the Off-Ramp. It was felt it was quite close to the Playback Designs and Mac 501's which considering the price is pretty darn amazing. Why the jump in performance - maybe its the power conditioner or the isolation platforms - it was hard to know. Anyway it was felt a bit more investigation needs to be done and that is exactly whats going to happen.

 

Watch this space.

 

Thanks

Bill

[earflappin]

Jon Marsh is in the process of comparing the M51 to the BADA2 and LIO-8 with and without the Alpha USB. Should be interesting.

[harmonica2]

Bill,

I'm intrigued by your comment about pairing the NAD C390DD with bookshelf speakers and subwoofers in a smaller system. I agree, but it seems to me that 250 watts is a bit overpowered for this purpose. I hope that the direct digital technology works its way down to a more modest amp in a lower price range.

[bhobba]

I have my own view on power which the following article articulates pretty well:

http://www.ellisaudio.com/wattsratings.htm

 

IMHO for the main speakers 250W (exactly like you say) is more than enough without even taking into account if you are using sub-woofers the main speakers are having that duty taken away. I heard the amp on some approx 86db speakers and the volume they could go to was DEAFENING - way beyond the 90db long term listening at will damage your ears.

 

However it doesn't really hurt and will amp the occasional transient that is something like 20db higher on highly dynamic material - but clipping that is likely inaudible anyway.

 

Thanks

Bill

[harmonica2]

It appears that I mistyped. The NAD C390DD has 150 watts per channel. This is still overpowered for me, but I figure I should post this before someone corrects us.

[MikeJazz]

I have not heard a DAC amp combination at this price point that I would rate better - it could perhaps be the leader at this price point.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

Long before NAD, you had the Lyngdorf pure digital amplifiers...

[MikeJazz]

It appears that I mistyped. The NAD C390DD has 150 watts per channel. This is still overpowered for me, but I figure I should post this before someone corrects us.

 

IMHO, if the power is of good quality, there is not such thing as too much power...

What needs to be seen is if there is enough current!

[bhobba]

Long before NAD, you had the Lyngdorf pure digital amplifiers...

 

Your point being? Have you compared the two?

 

Thanks

Bill

[bhobba]

IMHO, if the power is of good quality, there is not such thing as too much power...What needs to be seen is if there is enough current!

 

Yes. Normally we listen at something like a 1w average power when listening at normal levels. Most stuff these days is recorded with not much dynamic headroom with about 10db being common, although good recordings can reach 15db and the very best 20db. This means if you listen at normal levels 60w SS is more than enough giving something like 18db headroom. However raise that a bit to say 10w average then you will occasionally make use of 1KW but that will be very rare and the clipping likely inaudible.

 

Bottom line here is this type of power is pretty useless really but occasionally may be of some benefit and will not really do any harm.

 

Thanks

Bill

[Edgaronline]

The NAD M51 is definitely on my wishlist to audition. I have read very good reviews and it has a couple of features I really like. On power, as most people in audio know, Watts really mean nothing. You can have high watt rated amps not being able to properly controll the bass on ported speakers.

 

It's -indeed- all about current and being able to deliver this current fast, which tells about damping factor. or, in the case of the amps i use is nicely described here

 

"In my view, an important amplifier design goal should be minimal load interaction. And that can only be achieved through a high damping factor, implying a low source impedance. The AW180 sports a source impedance of 0.008 Ohm! That translates to a damping factor of 1,000 relative to an 8-Ohm load and guarantees good behavior even when driving difficult loads. The MartinLogan Summit X is a case in point. The impedance of its stat panel is capacitive in nature and decreases with increasing frequency, reaching a minimum of 0.8 Ohm at 20 kHz. That makes the Summit a prime candidate for amplifier-speaker interaction, especially when you consider that the average tube amp exhibits a source impedance of around 1 Ohm. Several tube amps rolled off the Summit's highs dramatically. One amp in particular managed a whopping -10dB at 20 kHz. The AW180, on the other hand, was unperturbed by such a load."

 

-Edgar

[Snowman]

Hey Bill

 

I think youre on to something about the 390, whenever i isolate it from the other components it got calmer and more clear, more expresive. i tried it on my M51 and on my M2 and got similar results, i stumbled across this when i was listening to a Eric Bibb song when i switched of my Cambridge 751Bd and the M2 paused briefly.

 

That made me think, so i got a screened powercable from Isotek and one Vandenhul wich i used to great effect. It still pauses but i love it even more now that i have it behind a filtered powercord.

[Snowman]

IMHO, if the power is of good quality, there is not such thing as too much power...

What needs to be seen is if there is enough current!

 

I second´that ABSOLUTELY! I have been toying with the idea of building a new system with 2 M2:s. Its been on my mind ever since last moth when i borrowed one to use togheter with my own.

[santiago]

I'm getting my c 390dd at the end of the month, and read some reports of it having some slight treble hardness.

I plan to use the unit as the center of a music 2.2 setup. Do you think it is very noticeable?

 

If so, I was thinking about ways to refine its sound a little further...

 

Do you think an Audiophilleo 2 + PurePower will help?

What about power conditioning? I was considering a Furman ELITE-15 PF i

Power cables? Any recommendations?

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

[bhobba]

I'm getting my c 390dd at the end of the month, and read some reports of it having some slight treble hardness.

I plan to use the unit as the center of a music 2.2 setup. Do you think it is very noticeable?

 

If so, I was thinking about ways to refine its sound a little further...

 

Do you think an Audiophilleo 2 + PurePower will help?

What about power conditioning? I was considering a Furman ELITE-15 PF i

Power cables? Any recommendations?

 

See my new post.

 

The slight treble emphasis and hardness disappeared when it was set up correctly.

 

IMHO you will need to look quite a bit and spend quite a lot more to beat this amp with separates. Buy it with confidence knowing that it will take a while to save up the money to get anything to best it.

 

Thanks

Bill

[bhobba]

Hi Guys (and of course Gals)

 

Well, well, well, things have now got really interesting. I lent the amp to a friend (he posts as Kdoot out here in Aus) and he found a setting change:

 

Menu -> Setup -> Speaker Compensation set to 8 ohms instead of 4 - the speakers they were used on were 8 ohms.

 

Evidently when it was done - holey (insert expletive) Batman - the sound improved a HUGE amount. It was felt it was now above a Playback Designs DAC and Mac 501's - amazing. Even more amazing was that system used a PDX and Mac 501's as its reference - and they were under threat. Evidently the only thing that saved them was a very slight (and the person I spoke to emphasized very slight) trace of a SS mechanical type sound (yes they could detect a very slight departure from strict neutrality). Careful listening did show - yes the reference DAC and amp were better - but that this amp got in the same ballpark was - well mind-blowing really. The reviews of the M2 said it was really close to some much more expensive separates and for once what reviewers say seems to be true.

 

Anyway my friend took it away and here is what he posted over in Aus.

 

For ages I've wanted to hear an NAD M2 with some Lenehan ML3 speakers. Having had both products in my home at different times, I know enough to be almost terrified of what that combination might do. (Apparently there is one guy around here somewhere using these together, and there's been no unexplained seismic tremors or spontaneous black hole formation so I guess it must have gone OK.) But anyway today I got to put their little brothers together: C390DD and ML2s. With a battery-powered Audiophilleo 2 as their nerdy little friend.

 

Hory clap. The dynamic range is unbelievable. ML2s are not particularly efficient speakers (~86dBm I think) but the 390 had them absolutely stomping, slamming and shaking the room with the kind of controlled power that class D is renowned for. And now here at home with my 92dBm Aurora 3s I can turn the dial down to -69dB, stick my ear to the tweeter and still hear more music than hiss.

 

Compared to the McIntosh 501 monoblocks (hooked up to the C390's pre-outs), the NAD's amplification stage is a little less composed under pressure. Well - duh. The Macs are rated for over three times the power. And the Macs have a slightly smoother, silkier finish to the sound, just as you might expect when comparing a digitally-switched circuit to a linear-transistor-transformer one. But frankly, initial impressions are that the C390DD is in the same league. Different, yes, but comparable.

 

It's hard to write about the 390 because it's so technically different to all the other components I usually play with. The "DAC stage" is not an R2R multi-bit, nor a typical delta-sigma. It's more like the second than the first, but even that gives the wrong impression because of the unique digital feedback circuit. In essence it's a digital-to-digital (PCM-to-PWM?) converter with highly capable processing for things like gain adjustment and parametric EQ, plus a just-in-time corrective digital input which responds instantly to any deviant trends at the speaker terminals. And it just sounds... right.

 

Take all the sonic things I like about my Metrum Octave and combine them with all the sonic things I like about the PDX, toss them in a box with an iron-fisted descendent of class D amps and that pretty much sums up my first thoughts.

 

I did some serious back-and-forth switching between the internal USB and my AP2. Didn't have an opportunity to do it blind, but I am pretty convinced that the AP2 brought an improvement which, while not perceptible in terms of frequency response or loudness or PRAT etc, took the system a bit further away from one which projected audio information at me towards one which created an audio experience around me. It brought the soundstage into better focus and made the performance more convincing. I really like that.

 

So, bottom line: if I could spend my hifi budget over again, the C390DD is what I'd buy to replace my current amp and DAC and I'd have a whole lot of coin left over. It's an absolute fricking bargain with flat-out brilliant performance.

 

Now I will need to get it into my system with this new setting to see what the go is but I trust the ears of these people and it would seem this amp is friggen good value - might be the amp you get without even thinking and see if you can find something that sounds better in your system. My guess though is it may take a while.

 

Thanks

Bill

[santiago]

See my new post.

 

The slight treble emphasis and hardness disappeared when it was set up correctly.

 

IMHO you will need to look quite a bit and spend quite a lot more to beat this amp with separates. Buy it with confidence knowing that it will take a while to save up the money to get anything to best it.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

Thanks Bill, great write up.

I already made the purchase, just waiting for it to clear customs... Same with the AP2.

Do you use any kind of aftermarket power cables or power conditioning with it? Do they make any noticeable differences?

[Julf]

Do you use any kind of aftermarket power cables or power conditioning with it? Do they make any noticeable differences?

 

I don't have any experience with the NAD C390DD, but as a general rule, well-designed class D amps (especially if they have switch-mode power supplies) tend to be pretty much immune to power line issues. I know that my own Hypex amps don't seem to benefit from / need any sort of power conditioning or fancy cables.

[bhobba]

Thanks Bill, great write up.

I already made the purchase, just waiting for it to clear customs... Same with the AP2.

Do you use any kind of aftermarket power cables or power conditioning with it? Do they make any noticeable differences?

 

I use aftermarket power cables and the reference system it was tried on uses both, however while it was thought they were making a difference it wasn't checked.

 

Thanks

Bill

[santiago]

Julf:

Why is it that well designed class D amps are immune to power line issues? Sorry for my ignorance.

 

bhobba:

What has been your experience with power cables and conditioners in general? Which ones in particular do you recommend?

 

Thank you both for your help.

Santiago

[ehrjohn]

I'm getting my c 390dd at the end of the month, and read some reports of it having some slight treble hardness.

I plan to use the unit as the center of a music 2.2 setup. Do you think it is very noticeable?

 

If so, I was thinking about ways to refine its sound a little further...

 

Do you think an Audiophilleo 2 + PurePower will help?

What about power conditioning? I was considering a Furman ELITE-15 PF i

Power cables? Any recommendations?

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

I was considering a conventional hybrid preamp/amp or a hybrid integrated amp system int the $3000 - $4000 price range, but I became intigued when I found out about about the C390DD. I own NAD gear (the 106 preamp & 2-208THX amps) and know about the quality of their products. So I purchased the C390DD with the two modules and received the amp this past Saturday. All I can say is, it is really musical, but nothing like a tube or even a hybrid amp. But the amp has improved my soundstaging so that I can hear wider and deeper into the music. The midrange is fine and I don't really notice all of that treble "hardness" everyone is discussing. The bass is ample and ready when the recording calls for it. The amp completely controls the Martin Logan speakers it is mated with. As for power cables, I'm using the stock cable supplied by NAD. Maybe I'll change it I don't know. For power conditioners I use Power Wedge 116. Tried a couple others some years ago but they actually muffled the music, so I returned them.

 

The C390DD has two coaxial inputs so I have an Oppo 93 and a Samsung 1010 hooked in that way, and then also I have hooked them in via the HDMI inputs for SACD. The DAC inside the NAD is truly top quality. The SACDs especially sound fantastic coming out of the HDMI. I use coaxial for DVD-A (I burn some of my own DVD-A discs from high-res files with Wave-Lab). I have begun streaming my high-res audio files (24bit 48K/88K/96K/176K/192K) through the Oppo into the NAD. I almost forgot, CDs sound great also. Must be the 35bits and 108MHZ. I have two turntables, I admit I haven't hooked one of them up yet, but I will. I collect records and record them to CD if they aren't available on CD, which believe it or not, some aren't. The C390DD has a coaxial output! That means digital to digital!

 

I'm breaking in the amp right now and don't reget a penny I spent on it. My only complaint is the speaker binding posts. They are cheap! After a few months of trouble-free operation I will take them to a dealer somewhere downhere inj Florida and have some real binding posts put on this amplifier.

[bhobba]

What has been your experience with power cables and conditioners in general? Which ones in particular do you recommend?

 

Haven't had a lot of experience with conditioners and the power cables I use are hand made by a tech I know - they were a bit better than some QED cables I had. They make a difference - but not a huge one. I am in Australia and I have been told our power out here is in general not as polluted as in the US so as a large gains are not to be made.

 

What acquaintances I trust tell me is Dave at PI Audio does some pretty good stuff:

PI Audio Group

 

Thanks

Bill