My new system is "underwhelming"...how do I improve sound?

[ccclapp]

"though no in the same league as the Minis"...

 

...is that to suggest that the MMGs are also not in the same league as the mini's, or that the MMGWs are also not in the same league as the MMGs?

 

Assuming the latter, how would you compare the MMGs with the Minis

 

[Paul R]

I think the Minis sound more like the 3.7s, and the MMGWs sound like MMGs, which of course, they are.

 

All the Maggies sound like they are kin to each other to me, but each series has kind of a unique sound, perhaps it is just a that each series has a different level of refinement. The 1.7s are definitely more refined than the MMGs, but they definitely have the same sound. I can listen to MMGs forever. In fact, sometimes, I would rather listen to the MMGs than the 1.7s, and the MMGs are far more room friendly.

 

-Paul

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Caleb,

 

Nothing you do with the speakers will mitigate the damage caused by having a desk between you and the speakers. There will be a reflection from the desk that arrives at your ears at the correct distance behind the direct signal from the speakers, to result in a midrange cancellation. I predict you will always want more "presence" and either move the desk or mistakenly blame the speakers. (Or add some hyped sounding component that will for a short time, give the impression of that missing presence but will soon reveal itself as a headache generator.)

 

Also, if there are books on the wall behind you, I would consider the surface of the books (at least at the height of your ears) to effectively be the "back wall", so you may need to move further away to maintain a reasonable minimum of two feet from your head to the reflective surface behind it.

 

Any way around the desk issue? The only ways I can think are either to move the desk or drop its height (or replace it) to somewhere around knee height. That will drop the frequency where cancellation occurs and make it less apparent.

 

Ideally, there is nothing between the listening position and the speakers. I understand this isn't always possible for everyone. Covering the desk with something soft (e.g. a thin blanket) during listening sessions might make all the difference.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[bdiament]

Even ceiling mounting, will not change the reflection from the desk.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[crisnee]

Well it sounds like you should consider the desk Maggies (minis) as desks is what they're meant for.

 

Did you read the review of them that I suggested you read? The reviewer thinks very highly of them, in fact he is positively amazed by them. I think he said something like "by far the best desk system he's ever heard."

 

And although in these last few posts the talk has only been about Maggies, most if not all non desktop speakers will be strongly affected by a desk between you and them, unless you're in a huge room and the speakers are far away, then the desk should have less of an impact (less, but still some).

 

-Chris

 

[bdiament]

Hi Chris,

 

**"...unless you're in a huge room and the speakers are far away, then the desk should have less of an impact (less, but still some)..."**

 

In my experience, it doesn't matter how far away the speakers are, whether they're on the floor, on stands, wall mounted or ceiling mounted. The impact of a desk in front of the listening position will not change at all.

 

The key is not the proximity of the speakers to the desk, it is the proximity of the desk to the listener. This is what causes the closeness in path length between direct arrival from the speakers and the reflection from the desk. This closeness will cause a cancellation in the part of the range where sensitivity is at its greatest.

 

To be clear, some folks won't mind it. Most recording studios suffer from this. But most recording studio designers and the producers and engineers who use them don't appear to have considered this, particularly in view of the fact that they're inevitably trying to increase "presence" (exactly what that cancellation will remove). Some attempt to counter this with mid-prominent speakers.

 

As always, my best suggestion is for folks to try things for themselves and reach their own conclusions.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

[SteveChicago]

Well it's finally "D-Day."

 

After dozens of posts, a myriad of suggestions and proposed "cures," and no doubt, immense soul-searching ... does the gear stay or go?

 

[ccclapp]

"As always, my best suggestion is for folks to try things for themselves and reach their own conclusions."...

 

Agreed that is best, but there unlimited configs and not easy to field test unless setup in my specific room ( in this instance more than others...not many desks at dealer rooms). Therefore advance discussions to try to narrow options and flag issues is very useful ( and appreciated! ).

 

"In my experience, it doesn't matter how far away the speakers are, whether they're on the floor, on stands, wall mounted or ceiling mounted. The impact of a desk in front of the listening position will not change at all."...

 

... I gather this means you feel the same about the minis and/ or other near field solutions designed for desk use?

 

...How relevant is the desk surface eg would a 1/4 layer of cork help significantly, or would better material at the precise reflection point be even better?

 

...I'd be satisfied with mixing desk level SQ. Being realistic ( this is just my office, but I'd like very nice sound at my desk) which direction do you recommend I look to: floor SP, eg MMGs, stand mount traditional (whatever that meant) monitors, Maggie mini, other?

 

Thanks all for the wisdom and guidance!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Caleb,

 

Rather than cork, I'd want something more absorbent (such as a thin blanket) at the reflection points.

 

That said, the choice of model is a personal one. As I have not yet heard the Mini, I'm not sure which way I'd go in the same situation. I'm confident it is everything I've heard it is.

 

The other component is the price vs. the budget. With Minis at $1500, I might be tempted to go for 1.7s at $2000 and get stereo all the way down. Adding a second woofer to the Minis would bring the price even closer.

 

The other road (as I would see it for myself) would be MMGs, for which I also have very positive feelings.

 

I don't think any of these paths would be "wrong", quite the opposite in fact.

But I'm a big fan of Maggies (the only box speakers I'd consider for myself or a relative, friend or client would cost far more than the most expensive Maggie). The little boxes --I call them "shoeboxes"-- referred to as "monitors" are, to my ears, essentially car speakers. But that's just how I hear it, which is why I always suggest finding out how your ears respond.

 

In sum, assuming the budget allows (for both the speakers and commensurate associated gear), I'd probably lean toward floor standers, i.e., 1.7s.

 

If space is absolutely too tight, I'd give the Minis a serious listen and I'd give very strong thought to getting a second woofer.

 

If budget is tight, I'd go with MMGs and live happily ever after.

 

I look forward to hearing of your experiences, whether with Maggies or another direction.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[realhifi]

A chance for all you Maggie fans to hear the new 20.7 in NYC. Looks like the NYC show (April 13-15) is going to be a good one. Other happenings I just saw posted at another site(including our own esteemed webmeister's presentation).

 

"Running concurrent with The NY Audio & AV Show, a few NYC dealers have decided to stay home and piggyback on this event by holding their own.

 

Stereo Exchange is featuring a number of presentations by manufacturers including Peachtree and Bel Canto as well as Chris Connaker of the Computer Audiophile who will be offering computer audio seminars. Their event runs, not coincidentally, the same dates as the show. Check the Stereo Exchange website for details. Lyric Hi-Fi is also having an event on Saturday and Sunday featuring presentations by Nordost and a demo of the new Magneplanar MG20.7 speaker."

 

 

[SteveChicago]

... how this thread, which began as a cry for help from someone with PSB speakers, has morphed into a Maggie-fest which has long lost any semblance of advice for the OP ...

 

Where /is/ the OP anyway?

 

LOL

 

[ccclapp]

Thanks for helping

 

"If budget is tight, I'd go with MMGs and live happily ever after."...

 

In concept, this is what I'd most prefer. My concern is if the desk makes this a bad choice in my circumstance.

 

Why I'm attracted to mmg:

 

-- I'd like to "get into Maggies "

-- I like the DIY or paid "modability" of the mmg (I like to explore these things and the number of impressive-result reviews is hard to dismiss)

-- the mmg price point is a no- brainer. Great new price and better on audiogon

-- mmg has much greater flexibility over time vs mini, eg main or 2ndary room; as surround w other mmg or larger Maggie in main room, etc

-- from what I've read are sized better for my office 12x14

 

However, if there are clearly better ( reasonably priced) solutions for a desk, I don't want to be stupid about it.

 

 

Chris:

 

"Did you read the review of them that I suggested you read? The reviewer thinks very highly of them, in fact he is positively amazed by them. I think he said something like "by far the best desk system he's ever heard.""...

 

...yes, I read that and other favorable reviews. They are compelling. Emotionally ( ignorantly) the 2.1 w mid under desk is so counterintuitive to me, I'm struggling with it

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ccclapp]

"... how this thread, which began as a cry for help from someone with PSB speakers, has morphed into a Maggie-fest which has long lost any semblance of advice for the OP ...

Where /is/ the OP anyway?"...

 

...yes and I am guilty as charged.

 

...I've taken uncharacteristic liberty, since op is likely evaluating hundreds of on topic replies and has sat back for the moment. Likely he will return with his current thinking and we will all again refocus to try to help him.

 

...if he objects to the current discussion and says so, I am happy to refrain from my offtrackedness

 

 

 

 

[SteveChicago]

... because, according to the OP, today's the deadline by which he must return his gear to Crutchfield ... OH, THE SUSPENSE!

 

[tpoole638]

@ Steve - thank you for your interest in my situation. I contacted Crutchfield and they are giving me an extra week to turn in the gear. The dealer I have mentioned in previous posts is going to help me decide what I should do with the gear. I'm going to take my speakers/amp to his shop and try them with some of his gear to see if there is any improvement. I know, I know....it won't sound the same as it will in my own house, but I'm going to compare how it sounds with other items, namely Magnepans.

 

The dealer is a dealer of Magnepans, so I'm going to listen to them in depth with some of my familiar recordings.

 

Just so everyone knows, I don't mind the "offtrackedness" of this forum from my audio problems to the "Maggie-fest". I have been diligently reading all of the posts and they have been informative and often entertaining. I have become genuinely interested in the MMGs, partly as a result of this forum.

 

I wonder if MMGs will work well within my listening environment. I don't think I will be able to space them sufficiently from the wall. Further complicating matters is the fact that I just started a new job, and will be moving in a few months. Maybe I should just wait until I know what hey new house will be before buying new gear?

 

At any rate, my current situation is that I have already received the return shipping forms from Crutchfield, and I am almost 100% sure I am going to return the gear. I am wanting to try listening to them in different configurations at the dealer. I would like to try to keep them, but I don't think I will. I want to hear the MMGs connected to my DAC and amp, as well as hearing how they play my compressed (gasp!) iTunes / Spotify music. I think what I am looking for is a system that will play high quality music files beautifully while also being able to play the compressed stuff fairly well.

 

Another thought - I have been thinking of going in a completely different direction and buying the Emotiva Airmotiv 5s or 6s monitors. Any thoughts about those???

 

[SteveChicago]

Welcome back.

 

FWIW, my 2 cents:

 

1. Return all the stuff to Crutchfield.

 

THIS SHOULD BE FUN, NOT STRESSFUL OR HIGH PRESSURE

 

2. Audition (listen) to a variety of gear and research it.

 

TAKE YOUR TIME

 

3. Don't latch on to any particular speaker, Maggies or otherwise.

 

KEEP AN OPEN MIND

 

4. Emotiva --

 

a. The positive: Good customer service; generous return policy; low cost (they sell direct)

 

b. The negative: All gear built in China and of questionable quality.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

[crisnee]

"In my experience, it doesn't matter how far away the speakers are, whether they're on the floor, on stands, wall mounted or ceiling mounted. The impact of a desk in front of the listening position will not change at all."

 

Barry, that doesn't seem at all right. As far as I can reason, the affects of all the other reflections will have a much larger relative influence than if the speakers were close to the desk in a small room when you'd get mostly direct sound and the desk reflections.

 

1. Less direct sound would actually hit the desk as opposed to the rest of the room (the further the speakers from desk/the larger the room, the more the ratio desk to rest of room would change).

 

2. For the above reason the listener would be influenced relatively more by other reflections vs. desk reflections as the room size/speaker distance from desk, increased.

 

Not that any of this matters here.

 

So, Caleb, as I mentioned in the other post.

 

Do the MMG 60 day trial, that's why they offer it. What have you got to lose? And since your desk is a light framework it shouldn't interfere that much, plus, put rollers on it and roll it out of the way for critical listening.

 

-Chris

 

 

 

[crisnee]

"b. The negative: All gear built in China and of questionable quality."

 

I would qualify that a bit. Some people swear by their quality. And "built in China," is not necessarily a negative. Although they build some junk over there (just like here in the U.S.) they also build some good stuff over there (just like here in the U.S.).

 

I would investigate whatever you're thinking of buying from Emotiva carefully. I think they've had problems with a few things but no problems or very few with others.

 

-Chris

 

 

 

[Oracle_309]

tpoole638

 

Non of your equipment stands out as being "bad" in any way. The PSB speakers and NAD amp is essentially perfet match (Lenbrook owns both PSB and NAD and I am sure that they use each others' products when voicing equipment).

 

• using non-descript cabling is always a hit and miss. Look closely at the interconnects being used between the DACit and the NAD. Lower end Monster cables (both speaker and interconnects) have had a long time issue regarding the bottom end, and sizzling highs. This makes these lower end products "saleable". (I am in no way trying to beat up the salesman in any way here, I'm sure he tried to provide you with what "most" folks expect and want when spending a few $$$s on wiring)
  
• A smart move is to use one of the tape inputs for a DAC input. They usually bypass a bunch of electronics sending the best signal through the amp.
  
• Make sure you have a good optical cable. I didn't say expensive, but did say good.
  
• Speaker placement can have a profound effect on the tonal balance and clarity ("transparency") of a loudspeaker system. Most reviewers place speakers well out into a room (often allowing for 1 metre or about 39" of "breathing room" around each speaker with nothing else in that area).
  
• What you place your equipment on can have an equally profound effect on the sound. Components vibrate, and these can smear the sound coming from each, resulting in an "additive" effect. If you can, get a good component rack. Again good need not mean expensive. Do some research on an IKEA "Lack rack". About as cheap as you can get, yet with very good sonic results (I have a welded Target stand, but I helped a friend make a "Lack rack" and it sounds great on his sytem which consits of a Roksan Xerxes MkI/RB250 hotrod/Ortofon MC3 Turbo/Jolida JD-9 phono stage and any number of good digital amps as well as a couple of nice tube amps.
  
• So what items have you been undrsold and why? I think the lack of a good stand (but for as little as USD$40 you can resolve that, or get the cheaper but equally good similar table available in the US at Target) is pretty glaring. I would also visit the store you purchased from and ask if they will take the wiring back in trade and allow you to try some other stuff.
• Oh, and a last question: How is the iPad connected to the AppleTv? Also please avoid using any compressed audio format if possible. As a minimum use Apple's "lossless" format
  

 

I don't think being "undersold" is a bad thing. Most folks resist any mention of purchasing better wire. But you will find that the devil is in the details. Having never seen the book ,Goodsound (as opposed to Laura Dearborn's similarly themed and titled "Good Sound", which is excellent, although a little old now), from what I gather is the "new" reference for audio systems and set-up. I can suggest or Robert Harley's excellent but more technical The Complete Guide to High-End Audio.

 

[ccclapp]

"Do the MMG 60 day trial, that's why they offer it. What have you got to lose?"...

 

 

..yes, that's likely the best bet and same with the 30-day on minis, since the forces pulling MMG vs Mini in my room seem hard to completely predict

 

"And since your desk is a light framework it shouldn't interfere that much, plus, put rollers on it and roll it out of the way for critical listening."...

 

...glass slab on steel can be heavy: 200-300 lbs and on carpet...not much rolling going on there. I might be able to config a roller just for testing (to hear MMGs w and w/o desk influence) but not for routing listening changes.

 

Question: What frequency range is likely to be most reflective/destructive off the desk? I ask so I can plan for appropriate reflection-point treatment and look for in REW.

 

By the way, wouldn't I have the same reflection issue with the mini's bass unit under the desk, reflecting off the underside of the desk and "fuzzying" that sound. In addition, I'd also have the reflection from the mini tweeters on the top. [As Chris pondered, I too would think that the mini's nearer-field set up would have more direct sound and thus a smaller reflection consequence, but then again I don't consult on recording studios, so just an intuitive comment.]

 

Thanks

 

Welcome back OP!! Please also report your maggie experience as this is YOUR thread (and thanks for the leeway)

 

[bdiament]

Hi Chris,

 

**"...As far as I can reason, the affects of all the other reflections will have a much larger relative influence than if the speakers were close to the desk in a small room when you'd get mostly direct sound and the desk reflections..."**

 

The reason it doesn't work that way for the desk reflection, which is the one I'm speaking of, is because the distance between the desk and the listener's ears is not changing, regardless of whether the speakers are on the floor, the wall, the ceiling or in the next room.

 

It is this path length difference that will result in the presence dip and the dip will remain, regardless of where the speakers are. I would not ask you to simply take my word for this (or anything else). Try it and see.

 

The only way to alter this is to drop the height of the desk (to knee height) or move the desk elsewhere, so it is not between the speakers and the listener or

to "pad" the early reflection areas on the desk. This last would make it difficult at best, to use the desk as a writing surface.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Caleb,

 

**"...Question: What frequency range is likely to be most reflective/destructive off the desk? I ask so I can plan for appropriate reflection-point treatment and look for in REW.

 

By the way, wouldn't I have the same reflection issue with the mini's bass unit under the desk, reflecting off the underside of the desk...**

 

What's "REW"?

Are you sure you want me to mention a number, as opposed to your hearing the results? (I would strongly suggest the latter instead. Add the number(s) when you are identifying a sound you already have a fix on.)

 

The Mini's woofer would not suffer the same thing because it does not operate up in the frequency range (the middle) impacted by the desktop cancellation.

 

To treat the reflection points, imagine the desktop is a mirror. If needed, you can always temporarily place a small mirror flat on the desktop. As you sit in the listening position (this is important), have an assistant move the mirror around the desktop. Where you see the reflection of a speaker, you've found where you need to place absorbent material (think more thin blanket than a harder material such as cork, which won't do the job).

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[ccclapp]

As Chris suggested its time that I arrange for on-site (office) demo of both MMG and Mini.

 

The Maggie dealer in the Boston area is Natural Sound. Do any of you know them and/or a good person there to work with? http://www.natural-sound.com/

 

Barry asked: "What's "REW"?" Answer: Room EQ Wizard, similar to Audiolense and others. http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

 

Thanks

 

 

[crisnee]

"The reason it doesn't work that way for the desk reflection, which is the one I'm speaking of, is because the distance between the desk and the listener's ears is not changing,"

 

That is obvious, but not my point. Remember I said a huge room and I might also add an oddly configured room. Although the desk reflections will be similar, the rest of the rooms reflections will weigh much more heavily on the sound picture.

 

An extreme thought experiment. Place the speakers within a foot of the desk. Virtually all you'll hear is the direct sound from the speakers and the reflections off the desk.

 

Now place the speakers 50' feet from the desk in a 60' by 8' room. It seems to me the sound of the other reflections will strongly influence the sound at your desk. Isn't that so?

 

Anyway, that's all I was saying. Not that the reflections from one's desk would magically disappear but that their relative impact would be diminished. I'm also not saying the sound would be better in the 60' room.

 

-Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[crisnee]

Caleb,

 

How much space can you make behind your desk?

 

Here's a bit of a story and my situation.

 

Keep in mind that my desk is small, fairly tall, a platform approx 2'x 2' on a heavy duty quadrapod on rollers.

 

I can't listen to music while doing anything serious so I don't have my system set up to sound its best for when I'm working. I sit forward at the desk on a couch with a back bolster, but my speakers are aimed at the back of the couch which is a couple of feet from the desktop and very slightly higher than desktop height, so most of the reflections actually bounce up over my head when I remove the bolster and lean back on the couch.

 

Because my desk is on rollers I also push it away a little and put a pillow on it and my feet up on the pillow when I want to listen to music seriously (I can also push it completely out of the way, but really the sound difference in my case is minimal).

 

So, if something similar is possible for you it might be something to try out. However if your desk weighs a few hundred pounds and is huge this is probably not realistic.

 

-Chris