The ultimate amp? When measurements and a great set of ears come to the same conclusion

[Kimo]

Is this the ultimate amplifier technology? I know that the 47 labs and Audiosector may slightly differ, but we are talking about essentially the same amplifier. If nothing else, we should have the standard for midrange performance here.

 

I note the measurements. Low IMD, outstanding square wave.

 

http://www.stereophile.com/content/47-laboratory-4706-gaincard-power-amplifier-measurements

 

And for perhaps the ultimate non technical endorsement, as noted in a Sixmoons review of the Pass XA 30.5.

 

"The Patek is a beautifully hand-made little amp that has achieved a lot of favor in my circle of friends: Bill Van Winkle, a blind piano tuner who is now in retirement, is a music lover and hifi buff with exquisite taste (and an absolutely wonderful human being) who has such high regard for the Audiosector amps that he's actually purchased two of the Pateks for his personal use."

 

Anyone using one of these?

 

 

 

[esldude]

Short answer on this being the ultimate amp? NO!

 

[losingmyreligion]

There's no such thing as an ultimate amplifier for the simple reason that speakers vary so much in their requirements.

 

The Gaincard was highly regarded for sound quality, and yet was rebuffed by many due to it's retail cost relative to it's cost of manufacturing, which begat the cult of the Gainclones from the DIY community, some of which became reknowned in their own right, most of all the Patek you mention.

 

It's fatal flaw - relative to being an ultimate amp - is low power output. Another characteristic that was both loved and disliked is that it seemed to have no sound of it's own, but only within it's power delivery capabilities, of course. The sound cold be especially compelling with very high efficiency speakers. The power issue was addressed with a later 50 w version, and also by the DIY community with a different chip, but some felt that the pureness (or Zen-ness) of sound was only contained within the first few watts. [note: some argue this is true for most all amplifiers.]

 

Another flaw, addressed by addition of a second (read dual) power supply called the Power Humpty, was lack of "oomph" (read restricted current delivery) impacting low bass response, as was also noted by Stereophile.

 

I have an original 25W Gaincard, with dual Power Humptys, which I bought used, but have yet to acquire a pair of super efficiency speakers that they mate best with, so they have been supplanted by a First Watt J2, which has a real 25w output. The Gaincard sounds very good with my Devore 9s, but I expect might improve with a pair of John's more efficient offerings.

 

One interesting element of the chip amps is that they revealed the importance of what might be called second order effects. Since the entire amplification circuit was contained within a chip, one might think that just wiring it up as directed by the chip manufacturer would be all that is required. Indeed, this assumption was likely the source of the negative feedback (sorry, couldn't help myself) from those who complained that it was overpriced.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gainclone

 

What became apparent some time later was the impact of every other small detail of such a simple device upon the sound. The original Japanese designer spent many hours "perfecting" these small details, which was factored into the retail price. As we know, DIYers rarely factor their own time into the cost of their creations.

 

 

Those of us designing our own digital audio playback systems based on computers (which is pretty much all of us here on CA) would do well to heed this notion about details, best summed up by Barrows' sig line - Everything Matters.

 

 

I would add that as devices and circuits become simpler and simpler, the selection of each 'piece' matters more and more. In my opinion, the simpler devices also tend to sound better. [see Nelson Pass' First Watt products as evidence.]

 

 

The gaincard and the gainclones can be great sounding amps, within their sweet spot, but it's probably worth repeating that opinions of this amp seemed to be of the love 'em or hate 'em variety.

 

enjoy

clay

 

 

PS, I believe PeterSt, of XXHE and Phasure, uses a DIY version of the Gaincard, popularly known as the Gainclone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sandyk]

"PS, I believe PeterSt, of XXHE and Phasure, uses a DIY version of the Gaincard, popularly known as the Gainclone."

 

Hi Clay

I have been trying to talk Peter into getting a proper amplifier for some time.

No wonder when using an amplifier with such a low slew rate, he can't appreciate high res material !(grin)

Alex

 

P.S.

Only kidding.

 

[PeterSt]

No wonder when using an amplifier with such a low slew rate, he can't appreciate high res material !(grin)

 

Well, I must use *something* to prevent my diaphragms tearing with an in-DAC slew rate of 650. :-))

 

Ok, I will try to be back with a more serious post ...

 

 

[PeterSt]

PS, I believe PeterSt, of XXHE and Phasure, uses a DIY version of the Gaincard, popularly known as the Gainclone.

 

So indeed, 4 channels of them.

I don't know whether this may be helpful to someone, but ...

 

The GainClones I use, use a "secret" chip, and no way it measures like Stereophile shows it. Apart from a small 3rd harmonic it adds totally nothing to te sound, comparing it to the NOS1 output. Yea, the 21dB gain of course. THD+N = 0.0035% at full gain and nowhere near the 0.1% from the commonly known chip(s).

 

It is not designed by myself, and I only took part in that - littleish. Check whether it worked what me and the designer came up with.

It is (was, see below) a commercially sold amplifier, IMO unique in its kind. Therefore also not cheap.

The Black Gates in it are a pain as always, and switching the amp off for an hour, needs 4 to recover.

 

It is totally neutral, and I think it is fair to say that all who ever visitied my place rave about the bass. This is not the amp only of course, but at least it shows that quite something different can be squeezed from a GainClone than Stereophile showed - which btw would be the normal picture for a GainClone (or GainCard).

 

But now the big trick (as far as I know completely knew) :

 

Since a couple of months there's a 200W version around. Mani owns it;

I was not involved at all, or it has been the sheer stimulation I expressed here : Gainclone heaven ?

As you will see I am not the only one, and we may wonder the coincidence (which it is) of the number of people owning GainClones before any Phasure NOS1 came about, and the relation to the exact same thinking I do with the NOS1. In addition, the GainClones were selected by me and a small group of people, and this really was heavy stuff at buying all sorts of "cold" amps, having them flown in otherwise, and compare them all. The GainClone came from that because it really was the best. People had all kind of tubes, transistors, but we all agreed. A super neutral thing which beat all. But, this special version.

 

May someone be interested then they can contact me, and I will pass it on to the one doing the real job. There's no penny or dime in it for me.

Btw, of what I understood, the 30W version is now only available as a base to DIY finish, while the 200W is available fully built.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

[manisandher]

I'm refraining from posting any thoughts on the sound quality of my gainclone 'super monoblocks' until they've had a chance to settle down and burn-in a little more. But for sure, they have no issues whatsoever in driving my big Quad speakers, with their 4-Ohm impedance below 100Hz and their 2-Ohm impedance above 20KHz.

 

Each monoblock requires 8x Black Gate N-type caps, and the manufacturer has told me that he only has enough to put together two more monoblocks identical to mine. You'll still be able to buy the monoblocks from him, but they won't have BG N-types in them.

 

If anyone is interested, as Peter has suggested, just contact him and he'll refer you to the manufacturer.

 

Mani.

 

[Chip S]

I've had my Patek since the Fall of 2005, I don't know if it is the ultimate amp but it is the heart of my system. A MiniMax preamp with NOS 12AU7s in front and Alon point V speakers have kept my head bobbing, toe tapping and singing out loud since then. Depending on the tunes I just have to get out of the chair and boogey. It's a "keeper!"

 

I have been daydreaming of upgrading my speakers and the Reference 3A de Capo i are in this dream... Anyone heard this combination?

 

[esldude]

http://www.stereophile.com/content/reference-mm-de-capo-i-loudspeaker-measurements

 

You might want to look at the measurements on the de Capo. I don't have them with the amp you are discussing, but I do have a pair. And make no mistake they are very good speakers. They do have a few issues.

 

Mainly the hump between about 400hz and 1000 hz. It bumps up about 4-6 dB there. The treble can be a bit much though careful toe in adjustment can pretty much completely balance that out. These speakers are clean, musical, resolving, and efficient. Takes little power to run them well. But that bump in response is audible. I am surprised it doesn't sound worse.

 

Now I use a Tact which does room correct/EQ and can do measurements. Mine measure almost exactly like the response measured by Stereophile. The good news is if you EQ out that hump they sound about twice as good and twice as transparent. The other good news is being where it is you can use simple playback software and drag down the slider at 500hz and 1 khz on a software equalizer and pretty much fix the problem. I find a minor drop of a couple dB at 500 hz and more like 3 or 4 dB on 1 khz does the trick.

 

If you wanted to bother keeping a separate folder for all your music files, you could run them through Audacity and do an exact reverse EQ on that hump and smooth it right out. Then just play your EQ'd files through your system and it will sound excellent.

 

Now many aren't bothered with the speaker just as it is. It will however be much better with that hump flattened out.

 

[earflappin]

Peter, do you know of anyone who has heard the new Hypex nCore 400 amps? They're right in your backyard right? Wonder how they would compare to your gain clones.

 

[Chip S]

To esldude,

 

Thanks for the info. and the link to Stereophile. The only review I've read is from "Enjoy the Music".

 

When I purchased the Patek I was very close to buying one of the ASL tube amps and learned of the Reference 3A products then and have thought of upgrading since then...

 

Chip

 

[PeterSt]

Peter, do you know of anyone who has heard the new Hypex nCore 400 amps? They're right in your backyard right? Wonder how they would compare to your gain clones.

 

Stupid stuff ...

 

Back at the time we tried to get all the cold amps in. I asked Hypex as well, but what came from that was that Mr. Bruno Putzeys (who just joined Hypex then) was going to design / create an audiophile version of the UcD700 for me. After six months of waiting and calling each 14 days, I gave up.

So I don't know even how these sound.

 

Sorry,

Peter

 

[Julf]

"do you know of anyone who has heard the new Hypex nCore 400 amps?"

 

As I have commented in another thread, I have two nc400's tentatively wired up on my lab bench. The studio monitors don't do them full justice, but I can tell you that they sound great - very neutral and transparent, and none of the "digital" sound. They definitely run circles around my Creek Destiny amp.

 

[earflappin]

Julf, any further update to share on the nCore? I have a pair on order and will be comparing them to an array of Class A and D amplifiers. I take it the assembly was straight forward? Will you be mounting these inside your Linn speakers or in a chassis?If you are using chassis what kind? Thanks.

 

[Julf]

"any further update to share on the nCore? I have a pair on order and will be comparing them to an array of Class A and D amplifiers. I take it the assembly was straight forward? Will you be mounting these inside your Linn speakers or in a chassis?If you are using chassis what kind?"

 

Waiting for the next batch of nCores - the initial batch was "only 2 per customer". Assembly was straightforward as long as you follow proper established ground/earth practice. In my case it was made easier by the fact that my system is all-balanced.

 

I am using a couple of boxes from Takachi Electronic Enclosure Co in Japan. The boxes fit perfectly in the space under the speakers.

 

[PeterSt]

Peter, do you know of anyone who has heard the new Hypex nCore 400 amps? They're right in your backyard right? Wonder how they would compare to your gain clones.

 

By now, I did. A bit of a coincidental situation, because I just ran into them somewhere, and they are NOT for sale. It is not even clear whether they ever will.

 

But

 

asked Hypex as well, but what came from that was that Mr. Bruno Putzeys (who just joined Hypex then) was going to design / create an audiophile version of the UcD700 for me. After six months of waiting and calling each 14 days, I gave up.

 

Of what I have heard I am tempted to pick up the phone, and claim a pair, because they failed on me last time.

 

The nCore could be the best cold amp on the planet.

I must be careful, because I listened to it through a PW PS/A DAC, of which I know it's not the best for "speed". This, while the nCore is speed all over. So, the combination is a bit off, and I had rather listened to it through my own NOS1.

 

Now I am going to call ...

 

[PeterSt]

I just ran into them somewhere, and they are NOT for sale. It is not even clear whether they ever will.

 

Wrong.

I just called, and the 400 just can be bought. But I listened to the 1200, and these are not available (but do exist).

 

There is no difference between the 1200 and the 400, except for power output - Hypex tells me.

 

It will not be easy for myself to even utilize the 400, because what I can have with my speakers and all - not using a preamp, is something in the range of 30W. Not 400W ...

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

You may not have seen it yet, but look here : http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html

 

You will see photos in there from the exact same unit(s) I listened to.

 

Now (Earflappin), guess how *that* happened ...

 

haha

 

Edit :

 

I really *have* something to add here, but not too much because I may not be entitled to;

 

If you read through this article, you will see that the authors rave about the Devialet. And, we all were comparing a few things because it was my sincere opinion that things did not sound right at all. In fact, it was a sort of the worse. Ignorant me, being on more dangerous territory than I could even imagine myself, said so as well. This was against all odds, but it was my opinion. Btw, this was also related to the speakers we listened through, and of which I could not imagine they sounded so bad. They were just too beautiful, too large and too expensive.

Because I could point out a couple of things which were accepted *and* because I was told earlier on something like "hey, the nCore, now *that's* an amplifier !" I was offered to listen to that instead of the Devialet which really was the norm in there ...

 

Sadly this wouldn't go without also replacing the DAC (because the Devialet does all as we know), so the PW came into place with behind it now the nCores. And, since we also listened to the PW with another amp earlier on, I could somehow interpret the changes, also because I know how the PW sounds in my own system.

 

The change in sound was beyond imagination. It still was not right, but this could easily be dedicated to the PW. But further ? Unbelievable.

 

For me it was the fun that "I" could turn those beautiful speakers into their value. To the owners this really has much value, but it's exactly this I can't tell about.

I went home with a proud feeling.

 

Peter

 

[Mark Powell]

Of the 1200 watt one is 12,000 dollars a pair. They probably buy from Hypex for a tenth of that, with the usual quantity discount. And Hypex do the power supply as well, so no 'specialist expertise' needed.

 

The usual hifi industry rip off.

 

And even the 'bathroom scales' Devaliet is just copying a concept that Quad did 20 plus years ago, with their 'current dumping' amplifiers. Though they didn't use PWM for the power part.

 

[PeterSt]

The first commercial version of the 1200 watt one is 12,000 dollars a pair.

 

Is that really so ? My eye indeed fell onto something like that price range, but I skipped it because I thought I read wrongly.

 

The 400 is 1000 euro (ex VAT) a pair ??

 

[Audio_ELF]

My understanding is the nCore 400 is available now (in small quantities) for DIY End Users.

 

The nCore 1200 is for OEM use.

 

Eloise

 

[Mark Powell]

It was at some show, and that was the price reported here.

 

Had I not bought my McIntosh three months I would have ordered the DIY ones by now.

 

Regards

 

[Mark Powell]

Several people here have received them and they are up and running. One guy blew his up by turning on the power supply and only then connecting the wires (sigh).

 

But as always we get crazy prices for the commercially built ones. I very much doubt that Hypex charge all that much more Hypex themself say they are much the same.

 

[spdif-usb]

I think I'd rather get two Emotiva XPA-1 monoblocks and spend the rest of the twelve grand on a pair of Canton Reference 3.2 DC speakers instead. LOL!

 

[Mark Powell]

I want a pair of the genuine Japanese Kondo Gaku-On monoblocs. Single-ended triodes. Only 112,000 pounds here in the UK. My credit card only goes up to a tenth of that, so I have applied for nine more