Magico, Merging Technologies, and Matan

Bob, I think that is the best thing that anyone has said here.<br />

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We all share a passion for the same stuff, and if we were sitting around sharing a drink and enjoying <br />

music, I doubt this same tone would prevail.<br />

<br />

A good debate is great, lets keep it to sharing opinions and not saying that what we think is fact and what<br />

other think is less than.

Hi Rick - I unsubscribed you from this thread. It's an option in your account settings. You can go thread by thread or whatever you want.

Tim, thanks for taking time to respond.<br />

<br />

Basically, after reading Chris’ product preview article I naturally wondered is the Mykerinos audio card with software an attempt of Merging Technologies to enter the American consumer market, or a group of the mentioned entities attempting to custom adapt and market a professional recording product to the developing computer playback market. If the latter, will the new card and software take on a new name, or will the developers ride on the well developed trademarks of Merging Technologies.<br />

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I was not familiar with two of the parties mentioned, so out of curiosity I quickly Googled the all the names. The results were vague to nil, and nothing mentioned on Merging’s site. Very interesting and so uncharacteristic of Chris to mention the names of two entities without including even a small amount of background information. (However, Chris did mention Tim Marutani whom I assume a number of us are familiar with from this site, well Tim at least I read your posts.)<br />

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Then my thoughts turned to introducing the new product at the CES within a few days. Whoever is making the introduction must surely have sent out a ton of press releases. After all, if anything, the CES attracts the press. They attend in the thousands and are everywhere. I can only assume the parties involved would naturally want to bait as much attention to a new product as possible. Or perhaps without a promotional budget (common with most startup operations) that task would be performed by TAD and Magico. Then again there could be technical and/or legal problems involved which tend to grind slowly with any new product (just read the history of the blue laser diode).<br />

<br />

Regardless of exactly who is developing and introducing this new audio board, it is an excellent move in the right direction. Computer generated playback of recorded music is an emerging market and ripe for new entrepreneurs with new ideas. After all, we are not seeing the established audio component manufacturers making any strides in this direction; so far they seem attached to the continuation of upgrading and introducing new optical disc players (or including USB ports on their dated DAC designs), but who knows what is in the future. <br />

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For anyone reading this post, I can completely understand Tim Marutani’s position. In the face of an unstable economy and the diminishing number of audiophiles, high-end audio retailers are being forced to adapt or close down. Perhaps adapting means finding new markets with new technology and making a serious attempt to attract a younger audience. Computer Audio truly needs some exciting new products and any retailer would be wise to establish a firm grasp on this technology. Anyway, that is my opinion for what it’s worth.<br />

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On the other hand, I was reading where 50% of all music sales were digital downloads. In addition there has been an increase in vinyl album sales. Resurgence is the word most often used, that is if you want to call .78% of total music sales increasing to .9% a resurgence. Nevertheless, vinyl pressing companies have seized the marketing opportunity to make bizarre claims like: “the resurgence of vinyl will put the final nail into the CD coffin,” or “vinyl's sonic superiority is that no matter how high a digital sampling rate is, it can never contain all of the data present in an analog groove,” and “vinyl is the only format of choice for people who really care about music.” But my favorite, which I’ve heard three times in 2009 was, “Vinyl provides more of a connection between fans and artists.” Every time I heard that comment I just politely smiled and remained silent, but I have this urge to blurt out, I’m writing a new book “Don’t Piss On My Leg and Tell Me It’s Raining,” and I’m going to put that quote on the first page.<br />

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Speaking about books, in my last post I decided to take a page out of Clay’s book and play the role of instigator. I knew in advance by including the phrase “fly-by-night” it would ruffle some male egos. Perhaps one of the parties (like Tim) would respond with some additional details like the basic who, what, when, where, why, and how. So, if anyone felt insulted instead of a little ruffled, I humbly apologize.<br />

<br />

I would like to make one point perfectly clear - I am not questioning anyone’s integrity or professional qualifications. I am familiar with how the Swiss conduct business and they tend not to deal with any American yahoos, (well…, it depends if the customer is willing to pay in advance). Perhaps the only thing I brought into question was a degree of business acumen. Come on gentlemen, would it not be wise for a new venture introducing its sole product to have a prepared statement describing this is who we are, this is our experience, and the effort placed in creating this wonderful new sound card and software without divulging any proprietary secrets? This is the type of effective marketing statement that aids in the reduction of skepticism and doubt of worth.<br />

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This brings me to the obvious. With a reported sales price of around $12,000 the sound card is targeted at the affluent market; the few Audiophiles with a large disposable income who can afford a limited 24 month listening experience. By 2012 computers will all be 64 bit architecture with new operating systems, less I/O ports, a new faster buss, which means smaller mother boards and power supplies in smaller cases with far less cables, all requiring half height or smaller specialty cards. Any improved sound card with proprietary software is merely a small step forward. However, even with the card’s greatly limited longevity, it might prove to be a good example of what can be accomplished with computer digital audio. Once good benchmarks are established with existing technology designers will be inspired to push the envelope (so to say). In conclusion, many of us will never hear the quality of this sound card, but within a short period we may be able to reap the benefits from more affordable items built on similar technology. <br />

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Hi Mani: I am not sure how far Chris went out on a limb, perhaps just hugging the tree trunk. I cannot bring myself to issue any harsh criticism over a few omissions and enthusiasm. In contrast to statements and reviews I have read on other audiophile sites, IMO Chris has actually demonstrated an unparalleled degree of integrity, performs a good degree of due diligence, and has (so far) not violated the principle that transparency is one of the cornerstones of journalism. Again, IMO quite rare indeed.<br />

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Hi Clay: I totally agree with your post “Mani, very interesting.” <br />

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“At the end of the day, none of us should take Chris' opinion to be more important than one's own. Neither should we imagine that he is trying to impose his opinion on anyone here.”<br />

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A fair and accurate statement! We all have our opinions and preferences which makes this an interesting endeavor. However, we all should not overlook that although Chris has his personal bias for sound quality and has become fond of some equipment, he makes an honest attempt to present alternative products, possible solutions to problems, offers a hearty welcome to newcomers, and supplies detailed instructions for getting started and moving forward at various budget points. Regardless of a few shortcomings, Chris has more than proven himself and this website to be a most valuable asset for anyone entering computer audio. I hope you agree?<br />

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Hi Rick: I must agree with your post. “Women have a wonderful tendency to listen to the music rather than the gear. Sexist statement but it seems to be true to a large degree.” Personally, I would not consider that statement sexist, rather my admiration for making such an astute observation. When evaluating any component in a system, I really need to sit down with a note pad and truly focus on listening to the gear. I have often noticed how easy this task is for men. In the end I always lean to the side is this set-up comfortable to listen to for hours on end, if not, what changes need to be made. For me, it is only common sense, if I do not like the sound quality, I will not compromise; just explore solutions with a logical methodology or move on to something else.<br />

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Hi audiozorro: Hope you had a wonderful holiday season. During the past year it seems by the time I read all the increased volume of posts, I find little opportunity to write. There have been several questions asking if anyone has had experience with this item, or compared various DACs. I should have made time to respond with: I have and here are my results. I will try to post more often this year. <br />

<br />

Welcome to a new decade,<br />

<br />

Daphne <br />

Dear Chris.<br />

<br />

If you really want to test your opinion of the magico speakers against a truly innovative speaker, you should try the Eclipse TD712zMK2 with their woffer. <br />

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http://www.eclipse-td.net/products/td712zmk2/index.html<br />

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<br />

This has to be the most innovative, and groundbreaking speaker design to date. <br />

<br />

Even though the magicos cabinets are made in a different material , its still the same classic cabinet setup that been in use for the last 50 years tho?<br />

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With absolutely no resonances, and that fastest response in any speaker ever created, I doubt that they can compete with the Eclipse. <br />

Only downside to these speakers is that they will reveal with painful clarity any faults and hiccups in the entire audio cycle from the recording studio to your own setup. I know that a great deal of recoding studios use these as monitors. While they might not have the esoteric “musicality” that some audiophiles claim to hear, they play everything with a precession that is unheard off. They are also pretty picky about the listening position, for the very same reason.<br />

<br />

I really urge you to try out these groundbreaking speakerdesigns before you give the throne to a pair of speakers with an interesting ideer for new materials for sure , but honestly a very basic design.<br />

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but thanks for a great job non the less..<br />

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"Speaking about books, in my last post I decided to take a page out of Clay’s book and play the role of instigator."<br />

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I prefer to think of this sort of behaviour as being 'devil's advocate'. <br />

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"...However, we all should not overlook that although Chris has his personal bias for sound quality and has become fond of some equipment, he makes an honest attempt to present alternative products, possible solutions to problems, offers a hearty welcome to newcomers, and supplies detailed instructions for getting started and moving forward at various budget points. Regardless of a few shortcomings, Chris has more than proven himself and this website to be a most valuable asset for anyone entering computer audio. I hope you agree?"<br />

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Yes, I agree Daphne, although it will be interesting to see how well Chris avoids the traps presented by "personal bias" and being "fond of some equipment".<br />

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I am quite an active contributor here for the reason that Chris' website IS a most valuable asset for not only newcomers but those wishing to have intelligent conversations about computer-based digital audio playback.<br />

<br />

Clay<br />

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I would like to comment on the ongoing discussion regarding whether a $12,000 soundcard is relevant, when most audiophiles' systems cost a fraction of this. A exorbitantly priced soundcard is relevant because of innovation. While most of us will not purchase a $12,000 soundcard, the manufacturer learns a great deal when building, testing and assembling this card. This knowledge will make its way to other manufacturers, who, in turn, will utilise it when building soundcards for the Everyman. <br />

<br />

The top-end of every market plays an important role in providing knowledge that enables innovation. This innovation will someday benefit all audiophiles. While it is difficult to accept that most of us will not be able to afford such a card right now, we can take solace in that fact that in a few short years we will. The technology in that $12,000 soundcard will cost less than $1,000 in a few years. <br />

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I am happy to let a few people finance this innovation. In the meantime, I will continue purchasing more music to put through this future soundcard.<br />

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T-mas, I take your point, but this reminds me when companies were spending big bucks in R&D to take CRT projectors to the zenith of excellence at higher and higher prices when instead they should have been investing in disruptive and superior technologies like LCD and DLP. <br />

<br />

"...but this reminds me when companies were spending big bucks in R&D to take CRT projectors to the zenith of excellence at higher and higher prices when instead they should have been investing in disruptive and superior technologies like LCD and DLP."<br />

<br />

Totally agreed with your statement, and esp. so if this card/software is primarily an 'evolutionary' improvement for AES/EBU signals (and therefore still is impacted by the limitations thereof).<br />

<br />

OTOH, Chris has presented this 'solution' as better than anything he's ever heard (which includes dCS), and claims that it raises the bar on digital playback by "at least one level, maybe two". That would seem to meet the standard of 'disruptive & superior' - keeping in mind that he made the latter statement prior to hearing it.<br />

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There are still many unanswered questions?<br />

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How can this 'solution' be claimed to outperform all Firewire / USB DACs when it does not even provide the digital-to-analog conversion, and is therefore subject to the limitations thereof? note: as I understand it, it was listened to primarily with what is arguably the greatest sounding DAC ever made, and now discontinued.<br />

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Does it also require a reclocking device, given that it's designed for AES/EBU (as I understand it)? IOW, is the card's clock output or clock input the most likely relevant of the two, presumably the latter?<br />

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Why is it so expensive? Will the card and software be offered separately (or will they continue down the path that Sonic started down with Amarra - sell the software & hardware ONLY as a package)?<br />

EDIT: re-reading Chris notes above, it does not seem that a separate offering is likely.<br />

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What are the truly, new characteristics of the 'solution' - if any - that allow it to raise the bar by one, maybe two levels above and beyond the dCS and all other Firewire / USB implementations (known to Chris)?<br />

<br />

...and the list could go on and on.<br />

<br />

clay<br />

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Hi T-Mas:<br />

This is what we all hope happens in the audio market:<br />

“A exorbitantly priced soundcard is relevant because of innovation. While most of us will not purchase a $12,000 soundcard, the manufacturer learns a great deal when building, testing and assembling this card. This knowledge will make its way to other manufacturers, who, in turn, will utilize it when building soundcards for the Everyman.”<br />

<br />

Unfortunately, this is not the case for the Pyramix software and Mykerinos Audio Card. In the real world you might be overlooking patents, trademarks, and copyrights as the first line of defense from other manufacturers reaping any benefits. Merging Technologies did not spend millions of Swiss Francs building their company and reputation only to have competitors steal their technology. <br />

For a more accurate view of the situation start with Merging’s own statement about their Audio card. “Merging's Mykerinos mothercard is a high performance 32 bit floating point Digital Audio PCI/PCIe Card with digital mixing and effects processing powered by Philips Trimedia/Nexperia VLIW processor.” <br />

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The last two words are the key to the story. VLIW – Very Long Instruction Word, is a computer processing architecture in which a language compiler or pre-processor breaks program instruction down into basic operations that can be performed by the processor in parallel (that is, at the same time). These operations are put into a very long instruction word which the processor can then take apart without further analysis, handing each operation to an appropriate functional unit. The main advantage of VLIW processors is that complexity is moved from the hardware to the software, which means that the hardware can be smaller, cheaper, and require less power to operate. VLIW processors have been around for 20 years and in wide use for the past 15 years. Contemporary VLIW CPUs have proven successful as embedded media processors for thousands of consumer electronic devices. <br />

<br />

The TriMedia media processors by NXP (formerly Philips Semiconductors) are not the only VLIW processors on the market; they are also made by Analog Devices, Texas Instruments, and STMicroelectronics. So the main chip on the Mykerinos board is based on 3rd generation Philips Nexperia 32 bit floating point processing VLIW technology which is nothing new or innovative, in fact VLIW processors are quickly approaching the end of their lifecycle. Nevertheless, this is a powerful processor that can handle far more than 2 channel / 24 bit / 192 kHz output. The real secret or innovation is in the software code and basically Merging Technologies is a software company. <br />

<br />

If you carefully examine the Pyramix software and Mykerinos audio card you will notice that the combination already supports playback output of 16/44.1 through 24/192. Have they altered the code to enhance superior sound quality and added the ability to upsample downloads. I’m hoping that more has been done other than delete all the recording codes, and add a new GUI. <br />

<br />

So what additional functions will the Pyramix software offer to the computer audiophile? Is it a complete, well designed, user friendly player with audio card or just another add-on application with a long list of compatibility problems like we already have (except now we are offered the privilege of paying $12,000 for a royal headache)? <br />

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Of course I have all the same questions as Clay just posted.<br />

All we know at this time is from Chris: “the solution Tim has been testing is an extremely customized version of the Pyramix software and hardware.” Also, “I can't stress enough that this solution is not an off-the-shelf Pyramix workstation like the ones in used at mastering facilities all over the world. It has the same lineage but is vastly different.” <br />

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So, the fruit is purple and shaped like an avocado, but it’s really an orange. Would that be a good enough analogy for “extremely customized” or “vastly different?”<br />

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Also, T-Mas, from what I have seen of the High End audio it is a highly opinionated, competitive market without any collaboration. The only collaboration that takes place is when one company devours another. However, there are third parties (large corporations) who develop technology and work with any company willing to pay a licensing fee.<br />

<br />

So, how relevant is well known existing technology in wide use with recording studios to the future of home computer audio players? Well, that remains to be seen.<br />

<br />

Just thought I would pose some questions for Chris to consider when writing his review.<br />

Daphne<br />

great post<br />

<br />

"So, how relevant is well known existing technology in wide use with recording studios to the future of home computer audio players? Well, that remains to be seen."<br />

<br />

As an example, Amarra has found a home in computer audio, after many years in pro studios as (software) technology known as Soundblade.<br />

<br />

To point to another example discussed in your post, even Soundblade has been improved with the addition of software licensed from another firm, namely iZotope's 64bit SRC+.<br />

<br />

thanks again,<br />

clay<br />

After reading the preview of the Matan Server mentioned by Chris, I have been thinking about the design being airtight and pressurized, whether the entire unit is being pressurized or just a single chamber. What would be the need for adding air pressure and at what PSI? Is this a practice used for aiding some type of passive heat pipe cooling, or thermoelectric cooling (TEC)? I mean we are not looking at a redundant electronic component placed in an unpressurized location of an aircraft operating at high altitudes and high G forces. Perhaps pressurizing is referring to a type of phase-change cooling system for multiple power sources.<br />

<br />

Then again, how much heat is generated by a CPU and a SSD for the sole purpose of processing digital audio code? If the enclosure is small, one can always place the motherboard in a vertical position like a blade server to aid in a passive cooling system and one can always place the power sources in a separate chassis. <br />

<br />

Then I was imagining the design criteria for the selection of materials like gaskets for sealing the unit and the I/O ports. <br />

<br />

I must say this is a very, very, interesting design concept. I look forward to a detailed review by Chris.<br />

<br />

Daphne <br />

<br />

Anyone find any pix of this setup at CES?<br />

<br />

All I could find related to Magico was pictures of the analog tape machines in use as source, and some uncaptioned pictures of Magico speakers, without any identification of model.<br />

<br />

clay<br />

<br />

PS, as I skimmed through hundred of photos, I saw precise little in the way of computer setups, other than Weiss.

Well, nonetheless, I had a great show. Met quite a few of you guys on here. Thank-you for stopping by. <br />

Had a long visit with Claude of Pyramix who came by our room. I spoke to him and another Pyramix user about what was really going on with the new cards/software. No wonder you weren't getting much out of Tim/Chris.<br />

Too bad none of the servers were working. <br />

<br />

Regards,<br />

Bruce - Both servers worked perfect. The Magico room used the Merging Technologies solution throughout the whole show. The TAD room decided to use a Lynx card at about midnight before the show started. Andrew was more comfortable with the MediaMonkey interface. Please don't spread incorrect data.

Hi,<br />

<br />

I have waited quite some time to intervene in this tread, which I personally would denote the most "strange" (I'll be nice) of 2010.<br />

<br />

It clearly makes people angry, depending on their profession or objectives.<br />

Peter<br />

<br />

PS: I already have the best sounding system in the world, so something must be wrong somewhere.<br />

Haha<br />

<br />

given that the card and software are capable of DSD and DXD if used with DAD dac,was this the configuration you listened to,as to the ESI cards,the Juli@ is quite capable but even for the money the Maya is streets behind the EMU 0404 Pci

To anyone interested on this thread, <br />

Audio Occasion and myself will present next weekend a Pyramix-Mykerinos-Moon Audio-Thiel demonstration at the Salon Son et Image 2010 in Montreal.<br />

<http://www.salonsonimage.com/en/visitors/index.html><br />

<br />

We gather various high resolution music sample from Atma Classique, Analekta,Fidelio and many others <br />

(thanks to this forum I was able to find a lot of free high-res audio material).<br />

<br />

The Mykerinos AES output will playback trough the Moon 750 DAC from Simaudio <br />

<http://www.simaudio.com/moon750D.htm><br />

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The goal of the demonstration is too offer a studio playback experience using a high quality source trough good high-end electronic and loudspeakers.

I was really surprised when I re-install the latest version of Foobar 2000 v1.01 with my Mykerinos audio card.<br />

Previously Foobar 2000 was crashing, complaining about now being able to support a multichannel audio devices.<br />

It's now working fine playing back Flac @ 44.1Khz, <br />

the Mykerinos Mixer is slow to initialize but finally appears after 5 seconds.<br />

Everything fine but changing parameters live on the Myekrinos cause samples to be dropped, other than that the Mykerinos really sing with Foobar 2000.<br />

<br />

Hi Guys - Here's another perspective on the Q5 loudspeakers.<br />

<br />

<i>"The Best Loudspeaker I’ve Heard? The Magico Q5"</i><br />

- Jonathan Valin<br />

<br />

<br />

http://www.avguide.com/blog/the-best-loudspeaker-i-ve-heard-the-magico-q5

Hi Guys - The new Magico Q3 has been announced. I can't wait to hear it.<br />

<br />

http://magico.net

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Word on the street is mid 30's.