Magico, Merging Technologies, and Matan

Hi Matias - I like ribbon speakers. Magnepan is actually located 20 minutes from my house and I've had lots of exposure to them. I've heard every model currently available. I like them, but to be honest they are no Q5. There is a new Magnepan 1.7 being introduced at the Show in Vegas this week.

Hi Chris,<br />

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Any "must see" products at CES that you'll be hunting down? Based on this, I'll be heading to the Magico room at the Venetian. <br />

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Thanks<br />

<br />

Jon

Hi Jon - Check out the TAD room as well. Andrew Jones will be using a Zalman TNN300 with Mykerinos card. TAD is also presenting its new amplifiers and DAC/SACD player. dCS has a new DAC that'll be on display at the show as well.

Thanks Chris,<br />

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I wouldn't have gone to the TAD room, but definitely will now. I love their speakers, but so expensive. dCS was already on my list, but, ditto.<br />

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And check out Wadia (30 234 at the Venetian) -- they're supposed to have the new 121 on display.<br />

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And I'm sure you saw Stereophile's cover this month. It's all happening.<br />

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Jon

I'm not sure I read that right: the new PC audio card (with software) is going to cost ... $12k?<br />

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Sheesh. <br />

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You know, I have to be honest here. If this isn't actually a typo, then the fact that the card performs well is ... well ... boring. I mean, really. It's great? Wow. Shocker. And?<br />

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Let me explain: <br />

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/Begin Rant<br />

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The fact that a wine maker can make a $5000-a-bottle wine that will score well in Robert Parker's <i>Wine Advocate</i> is about as revelatory as the sun coming up in the East. It's great? Wow. Shocker. When we hit these price points, the real story is how a wine maker <i>failed</i> to make ambrosia (as in actual "Food of the Gods", not just "very tasty") for that kind of cash. What? It doesn't raise the dead, too? Fail! As my wife is so fond of saying, "at that price point, there's no magic" -- <i>of course</i> it's going to be good, so what? By contrast, and following the analogy a bit more, a $10 bottle that scores just as well as it's $5k sibling ... well ... now <i>that<i/> is the true miracle and something to be sought after, celebrated and shared. More importantly/relevantly, given the sheer volume naturally occurring at that lower, more accessible price point, this is precisely where an independent and trusted reviewer is at their best and most useful -- helping to sort noise from signal -- and why and more importantly, when, <i>Wine Advocate</i> is such an awesome resource.<br />

<br />

Back to audio:<br />

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Look, I'm not intending to disrespect the designers and researchers that poured their time and attention into creating wonderful product, especially product that can produce wonderful emotion and enjoyment. But honestly, who cares? Wish I could afford it! Oh well. Next!<br />

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It's like buying <i>Automobile</i> and finding an article about the latest shootout between an offering from Ferrari and Lamborghini. Yes, there are readers that really love that stuff. But since no one (statistically, anyway) is ever going to be buying either, what the article amounts to is the magazine equivalent of highway rubbernecking at a traffic accident -- not helpful, constructive, or useful behavior, but certainly entertaining. In a prurient kind of way.<br />

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I think this is what bugs me about <i>Stereophile</i> Magazine (or any of their peers, for that matter). There's very little attempt to review great product as it relates to a cost/performance curve (ironic, perhaps, given my example earlier, but this is precisely where <i>Automobile</> and it's peers tend to shine). <br />

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Given that increases in performance do not keep pace with cost, and that in all likelihood the relationship is asymptotic, what you have at the top of the bar is teeny-tiny increments in performance, all of which cost exponentially larger sums of money. <br />

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The question that is begged by all these uber products: is it <i>necessary </i>to spend all that to get great performance? I submit that the answer is "no". But it's increasingly hard to find evidence for it in audio reviews.<br />

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Is it the case that the Magico/Merging Technologies solution is in fact the bar that others ought to be measured against? Or perhaps a dCS stack? If so, fine. But the magic is happening elsewhere. <br />

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/End Rant

Hi Scot - Thanks for your honest opinion but I disagree with much of what you said. No worries though :~)<br />

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On this trip I was out to hear the best sound possible. I wasn't looking for price/performance ratio or anything else. The fact that this solution performs wonderfully is not boring to me. In fact it's incredibly exciting. Products that have nothing to do with hocus pocus and snake oil and are based on solid engineering principles are exactly what this industry needs. I'm happy to have introduced the Computer Audiophile readers to the products mentioned in the article. <br />

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As you well know it's impossible to please everyone all the time. I know several people who will purchase this solution the day it's available. These same people would have no interest in the ASUS card that is featured on the cover of Stereophile this month. That card is under $200 and it performs terribly. Outputting a bit perfect signal with that card is virtually impossible. Other cards I am considering at this time are from ESi. The Juli@ and the Maya44 are great values and I hope to bring attention to them here on CA.

Sooo many questions...<br />

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Chris, what hardware is provided by the Mykerinos 'solution'? Seems like it's simply a card.<br />

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I also didn't see what (or even if) DACs were used in your listening tests. Do they also provide the digital-to-analog conversion? Or would ultimate sound quality still be limited by the available DACs with AES inputs?<br />

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Given the Pyramix angle, are we talking about sample rates above normal ( which I consider to be up to 192 kHz) as an aspect of their solution?<br />

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thanks<br />

clay<br />

Chris, have you tried a device like the Antelope DA which isolates noise from the AES output device (e.g. Lynx AES16) before going into the DAC and, if so, how would you rate the sound quality of that configuration vs the customized Mykerinos set-up you heard at Tim's place? Have you tried a device like the Weiss firewire-to-AES converter?<br />

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I have a Zalman TNN-300 with Lynx AES16 and a Berkeley Alpha DAC. I've tried the Antelope DA and the Grimm Audio CC1. The CC1, unlike the DA, actually reclocks the AES pass through AND can provide a high quality master word clock output. <br />

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In my testing I found the DA provided an immediate and notable SQ improvement. When I used the CC1 I found no significant incremental improvement over the DA, even when I used it to provide word clock into the AES16.<br />

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This says to me that the primary weakness of the AES16 is one of less than optimal noise isolation versus clocking errors. I believe Berkeley Audio shares that view.<br />

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I raise this point in this thread as I believe the Mykerinos PCI card (at a cost of over $3500) likely has much better noise isolation than the Lynx AES16 and this could be a large part of the SQ you heard.<br />

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What's your take? Also, I was curious if you had plans of ever reviewing the ULN-8/Model 4 so your readers could see where you slotted its performance versus the rest of the field?<br />

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Thanks.

Hi Clay - The solution consists of a Merging Technologies Mykerinos audio card and Merging Technologies software. The software in use right now is the Pyramix software from Merging but I think there will be a more user friendly version available in the future. The Mykerinos cards used over the last few days provided AES and world clock in/out. No digital to analog conversion. The card works with any AES capable DAC. Based on my experience I don't think this solution can be beat by any USB or FireWire interface or DAC available today.<br />

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Sample rates supported will likely be all the way to DXD. I can guarantee up to 24/192 works as I listened to several 24/192 tracks.

The posts in the forum on this site reflect the overwhelming interest of the community here to set up high fidelity systems with computer audio components (DACs, software, storage media, and computer systems) that range in individual costs from $500 to $3000 (with few outliers). There is not a large population of threads on the topic of "I have $60K to spend on some loudspeakers--what do you recommend?"<br />

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Furthermore, what happens forward of the DAC is much more comprehensively and competently covered in other parts of the Internet and even print media. Statements such as "There isn't a single product on the market today that's capable of this level of performance." are at face value absurd. Speaker performance is inherently a subjective matter, so in the absence of objective measurements (which don't yet exist to capture the full scope of what people perceive as qualitative differences among loudspeakers), it would be much more plausible to say that these speakers are, in his personal opinion, the best that he has heard.<br />

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The majority of the home page stories here since the end of November that were not simply press releases from vendors have been for products that are irrelevant to the community here. A DAC system for >$30K, a robot for ripping CDs, a $12K sound card, and something entirely beyond the scope of value on this sight, some speakers for Kuwaiti royals.<br />

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There seems to be some money flowing into Chris's hands from somewhere to fund his airfare, lodging, and per diem to do all the traveling that he tweets about, so why not put some of those resources into adding solid information to the topics that dominate the commuity's interests.<br />

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This has been done, for example, in promulgating guidelines on ripping CDs, configuring some music servers, and setting up wireless music distribution networks. But there are major gaps in knowledge that remain and could be addressed by the effort that seems to go into rhapsodizing about esoteric components that only a handful of people will ever afford or own (lot's of wealthy people are actually frugal with their money, after all).<br />

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The following features would be of infinitely greater service to the community here than organizing trade exhibitions or more reviews of things like the dCS front end:<br />

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1. A series of DAC shootouts at various price points judged by a panel of 8-10 listeners in a double blind setting. A well organized shootout that highlights the particular strengths of the DACs (in addition to picking an overall winner based on the stated criteria) would be infinitely more valuable to everyone here than another opinion about a $20,000 anything.<br />

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2. A series of USB cable shootouts modeled on the above.<br />

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3. An objective analysis (perhaps via interviews with audio engineers who are innovators in the industry and know something about the topic) of all of the variables that go into the quality of sound produced by a computer source. There's a lot of assumption that control of jitter is the main issue and maybe RF interference in the system. There's a lot of skepticism about the possibility that there is a physical explanation for benefit from different hard drives or cables or playback software. It would be a real service if the front page stories sought out expert insight into these matters to help raise the level of discussion and put misconceptions to rest.<br />

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Those things, if done effectively, could constitute a full program for CA in 2010, and perhaps get the site back on track after having lost the plot.

Hi earflappin - I haven't tried the Antelope DA or the Grimm devices yet. I've heard the Model 4 more times than I can remember. I personally like the Alpha DAC much better.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us Chris. I for one like to keep abreast of leading-edge developments in a field of real interest to me... whether they're of practical relevance to me or not.<br />

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I'd also like an answer to Clay's earlier question - which DAC were you using?<br />

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Mani.

Thanks for the response Chris. What DAC's did you listen to at Tim's place? Berekeley, Model Two, ? <br />

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Those of us who have interacted with Tim and know how the extent of his experimentation with all things digital and his passion to find the best possible sound quality, will know that for him to be this excited about the Merging technology is significant. What's hard to judge of course at this point is how much of that performance can be had at a much lower price. <br />

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As I posted, I suspect a big chunk of this performance improvement can be had via a device like the DA which does AES noise isolation and other such devices, but probably not all of it looking at how well the Mykerinos has been designed and the fact that the software player and PCI card has been carefully optimized as a single solution by one company. Only though A/B testing will we know for sure. Hopefully, that can be done down the road.<br />

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In response to the other two posts bemoaning your reviews of expensive gear (dCS, Magico, Merging, etc.) I think all of us who frequent this forum need to understand this site is now your full-time job and you need to run it as a business and not a hobby. I'd like to believe that through mutual information sharing each of us can find what we're looking for on this forum and use it to zero in on where we want to be on the price/performance curve.

Hi xenophilic - Thanks for the honesty and well meaning comments. I always encourage discussion like this on the site. I disagree with almost everything, OK everything you said but I'm totally fine with your opinion. It didn't make me mad or anything and I like the fact that you offer your own ideas to make the site better. It's much easier to attack someone or something without offering a better method. For offerring ideas I commend you, although I don't agree with them (see below).<br />

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The Computer Audiophile community is similar to general public. The higher the price the fewer people can afford the component. Conversations on the Forum are only one part of the site. Less than 1% of the CA readers post on the forum. Again, the forum is one indicator of the interests of CA readers.<br />

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<i>"Statements such as "There isn't a single product on the market today that's capable of this level of performance." are at face value absurd. Speaker performance is inherently a subjective matter, so in the absence of objective measurements (which don't yet exist to capture the full scope of what people perceive as qualitative differences among loudspeakers), it would be much more plausible to say that these speakers are, in his personal opinion, the best that he has heard."</i><br />

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Magico creates its speakers using more measurements than anything else. There are many objective measurements of the Q5 that support my opinion. Stating something on my site that I write is my own personal opinion would be as redundant as one can be. <br />

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<i>"Furthermore, what happens forward of the DAC is much more comprehensively and competently covered in other parts of the Internet and even print media."</i><br />

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Multiple sources of information are always a good thing. Sony created a Compact Disc Player back in the 80s. Was there a need for other manufacturers to build CD players? I don't think anyone would say no to that question. Each audio writer has a different perspective and skill set. Many people like to read the opinions of a lot of writers on all kinds of topics. <br />

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<i>"The majority of the home page stories here since the end of November that were not simply press releases from vendors have been for products that are irrelevant to the community here. A DAC system for >$30K, a robot for ripping CDs, a $12K sound card, and something entirely beyond the scope of value on this sight, some speakers for Kuwaiti royals."</i><br />

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I don't publish press releases on Computer Audiophile. Based on the site traffic statistics the articles published recently have been very popular. Site traffic has never been higher thanks to readers such as yourself. None of my statements are to be taken as a shot at you xenophilic, they are just counterpoints to your post.<br />

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The shootouts you would like to see may sound like a great service at first blush but would only serve to mislead readers. I've listened to many components in locations all around the country and the same component sounds different in every system. A shootout would be valuable only to people who live with the shootout system on which everything was tested. Also, most components take very different configurations to sound the best. It is very misleading to connect two DACs to the exact same system and call one better than the other. The results are really only valid for the complete system setup used in the test. A more realistic test would configure a system for each DAC that really makes it shine. Yet, this too would be a disservice as nobody would have the same system with the same power feed etc...<br />

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<i>"An objective analysis (perhaps via interviews with audio engineers who are innovators in the industry and know something about the topic) of all of the variables that go into the quality of sound produced by a computer source."</i><br />

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This is a very valid topic and one everyone could gain from. In fact this whole site is dedicated to the variables that go into computer based audio. But, if I asked 5 engineers questions surrounding this I would get 10 different answers. I believe Positive Feedback asked 10 audio engineers these very questions and none of them totally agreed. <br />

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Hi Mani & Earflappin - Much of the listening was done via a PM Model Two. I did spend a little time with the new TAD DAC. In the future I will spend many more hours listening via an Alpha DAC in my home system.<br />

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Thanks for your comments.

I think I started reading this site shortly after it went up (referred here from another forum) and I must admit that recently I've read less and less. This is mostly because it seems that many of the products mentioned/covered/reviewed are really pushing into high 4, low 5-figure territory which is pretty rough for me. After reading some of the above comments (as well as the reviews in this post) I was ready to say "Amen brother, this place is Stereophile by another name." Now, I still read Stereophile online but I think I read it for the same reason that my wife reads things like People/Cosmo... I have chosen to cancel my subscription to Stereophile as of a couple of years ago because I felt it didn't cover any of the gear I was interested in.<br />

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So, after thinking that, I want back through the last few "pages" of CA and I must say, I still think there is a pretty good balance here on simple/cost effective solutions to getting the most out of a music server vs. reviews of multi-kilobuck products that "statistically speaking, no one is ever going to buy" (I love that line by the way!). I was shocked by 54K speakers, but absolutely blown away by a 12K sound card! Anyway...<br />

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I still think CA is a great site and worth visiting from time to time, I just hope Chris is able to maintain a balance between information/products that are available to the majority of us vs. covering the state of the art. I think there's room for both here on CA; I just hope things don't go "off the rails" in pursuit of SOTA. I think there's still a lot of us out there looking for "the best $10 bottle of wine you've ever had!"

<i>"So, after thinking that, I want back through the last few "pages" of CA and I must say, I still think there is a pretty good balance here on simple/cost effective solutions to getting the most out of a music server vs. reviews of multi-kilobuck products that "statistically speaking, no one is ever going to buy" (I love that line by the way!). I was shocked by 54K speakers, but absolutely blown away by a 12K sound card! Anyway..."</i><br />

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Hi bigjppop - Thanks for looking through the site and using the facts to support your position. There really is a balance on CA. Soon I will post an article on building a music server that's incredibly inexpensive, small, and sounds wonderful. Looking only at the recently published articles is like watching the stock market and cheering or jeering every minute.

I think it's important to write about the current SOTA in computer audio... on a site called Computer Audiophile.<br />

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Hell, if Chris didn't, most readers would think that a certain $6K AD/DA converter is as good as it gets. It definitely isn't...<br />

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It's good to know how high the bar really is.<br />

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Mani.

hi chris<br />

i have been a 'loyal' reader for a couple of years. my comments come from the position of being a 'loyal' reader of CA, who takes a multi-daily dose of your posting.<br />

- no doubt you must secure stable advertising revenue to make a 'go' of CA; even more so now that this site has graduated from hobby to 'job'<br />

- no doubt you have an obligation to the CA community to report on the 'state' of the CA field, without limitations on cost of purchase.<br />

-you have established, quite obviously, a reservoir of good faith and trust from your readership. <br />

- i think it critical for maintaining your own legitimacy that you strive to keep an appropriate distance between your advertisers products and your editorship/writing. with all due respects and without casting any doubts on the intent of your latest postings, i think those posts tread perilously close to 'fan-boy'/cheering section status. this is not to say that the products are anything other than first-rate, rather i want to raise a warning that 'cheering-section' reports are, by their nature, prone to misunderstanding by your readers and could raise responses from readers that will not be easy to calm once raised and will lead to an unnecessary and acrimonious diversion from the purpose of this 'zine. in this regard, i direct your attention to the numerous threads on AA (critics). lord knows, we don't want to move in that direction.<br />

-remember the old canard about being "...cleaner than caesar's wife".<br />

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take care. <br />

johnnyturbo<br />

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the quality of CA is first rate <br />

"I think it's important to write about the current SOTA in computer audio... on a site called Computer Audiophile."<br />

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Totally agreed. <br />

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I also happen to believe that the single most important characteristic Chris provides here is an environment where people can share their opinions (respectfully) - without fear of retribution due to disagreement with Chris' view, and/or without fear of being shouted down by those that take a different position.<br />

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"Hell, if Chris didn't, most readers would think that a certain $6K AD/DA converter is as good as it gets. It definitely isn't..."<br />

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My comments above are especially appropriate for the topic Mani points to here - i.e., the ULN-8/Model Four versus Berkeley Alpha 'debate', as it were.<br />

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Chris clearly prefers the Alpha, but does little more than state the Alpha as 'his' preference 'in his system'.<br />

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"It's good to know how high the bar really is."<br />

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Well, I think perhaps dCS have the high bar staked out already!<br />

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Re the certain $6k AD/DA, in my opinion, the issue is that some believe it is in another league than the Alpha and for nearly the exact same price (when you factor in the cost of the obligatory Lynx card for the Alpha). IOW, not necessarily that it's the best there is, but just the best value for those that are already in the game for $5k. <br />

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Even for fans of the "certain $6k AD/DA" (who might believe it is another level up from the Alpha), I guess it's good to know that a $24K plus combo is required to bring digital sound up to a new level. I'm referring to the Mykerinos / PM Model Two combo, of course, and assuming, perhaps wrongly, that a Model Two would go for as little as $12k used.<br />

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absolutely no disrespect intended,<br />

clay<br />

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PS, Mani, should you ever decide to, uhm,...oh, never mind, not gonna happen. <br />

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Just to add my two cents to the discussion, I think it is incredibly important for you to go out and find the best performing components out there as regards a complete computer audiophile setup. Since most of us won't hear 100k systems often, if ever, I think it is all that more valuable for a reviewer to get perspective on just what is possible. Plus, I for one always enjoy reading about things that I can't afford if only to drool and dream.<br />

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Having said that, I would like to see you take a look at some more budget minded components and hear your thoughts about where they stack up next to the big boys. I'm also not sure I quite agree about your statement in regards to a gear shoot out or even simple gear comparison. While I think most of us are mature enough to understand that your (or anyone else's) opinions on gear would be both subjective and highly system dependent, I think such comparisons are still valuable as many of us won't be able to hear the amount of gear that you can round up.<br />

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If you were to then add your thoughts as to system matching and building up a proper system that would be even more fantastic and just icing on the cake. I know I'd love to see a budget usb dac comparison (hrt streamer, v-dac, devilsound, hiface) and maybe some talk about computer audio headphone systems, but regardless this continues to be a great source of information.

"I for one always enjoy reading about things that I can't afford if only to drool and dream."<br />

Hey, that's me too!

@Chris -- appreciate you're taking my comments as intended and not as being in anyway a personal attack or an indictment of your site, your job, or your personal and professional choices. <br />

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You must know that we all envy the hell out of you. Lucky bastard!<br />

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That said, there are some very large gaps in the current crop of audio review outlets out there -- gaps that I think you might be in a rather unique position to help address. Your mission, should you choose to accept it ....<br />

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Oh, and just for the record, I'm not interested in budget performers. I'm interested in uber performers that just happen to be value priced. As I said, these are the "diamonds in the rough". If that means that the best sound possible is available for a mere $50k, then, so be it.<br />

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But there is a value in reviewing such products -- as a metric. That is, the bar has to be set somewhere high, otherwise every great product you run across will be the "best thing you've ever heard". I mean, there's only so many times you can say "Well, this one goes to 11". <br />

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A dealer I've worked with in the recent past described audio reproduction as an exercise doomed to mediocrity (my words) -- that is, when referencing Dave Clark's Big Question (what is the point when building an audio system) the <i>best</i> you're going to be able to do is 80% of live music's 100%. Pretty damning, IMO, if your goal is to recreate live music, no? But if you're after "the best you can get", well, the job is a little different. Anyway, by hitting the high point w/ the Magico, the dCS and all their price-peers, you now know what it is you're shooting for.<br />

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But this assumes that there is some measure of standardization of review. That is, that comparing one component's performance to another's is a valid approach. This of course relies upon the notion that some measure of objectivity can be injected into the process. I am afraid that I have to disagree with your view that shootouts (or by extension, simple comparisons) are inherently unfair or misleading -- quite the contrary, I feel that no other review methodology is worthwhile. Without reference to a scale or metric or bar, no review comments can be taken as having any relevance. It can't all be relative, else we would have nothing at all to talk about with such passion! <br />

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And in case I haven't mentioned it, this site is a lot of fun. And the passionate contribution of it's locals is in large part what differentiates it from its more staid peers. Thanks Chris! <br />

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More later ....<br />

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“There isn't a single product on the market today that's capable of this level of performance.” Chris, I enjoy your work, but I assume you did something similar to what a colleague of mine did and went to hear many of the contenders in their ideal environments: http://www.ultraaudio.com/opinion/20090801.htm. You would have to add Kharma Grand, Focal Grand, Dynaudio Master, Gryphon Poseidon, and a number of others, to be able to even approach validity with your statement. Please don’t turn into Jonathan Valin – we need objectivity and good sense on this great site.

Hi Scot - Thanks for the kind words and your well thought out opinion. I can say this: I now have a new reference to which I can compare future products and systems. At CES this week I will be comparing everything to the sound I heard in the Bay Area last week. This reference system does not really help when I publish reviews of products like the Peachtree Nova (coming very soon) which sells for a bit over $1k and is not designed to be a reference product. <br />

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I agree there are diamonds in the rough. I get just as excited to bring the readers information about those products as I do the very expensive products. To some people the $5k Alpha DAC is a giant-killer in price to performance category. Sure $5k isn't cheap, but it's reasonable in this hobby. <br />

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Based on your response, and others, maybe we should create a forum thread about head to head reviews and shootouts. Not that I have a desire to participate in a shootout, but I will certainly participate in the discussion.