Poll Question: Power Conditioning

[Paul R]

I don't think very much has changed in five years or so, but my opinion has shifted a little.

 

Put a decent little inverting UPS in place.

 

That would be one that takes in wall power and uses it to charge the batteries, and then takes power from the batteries and feeds your devices from that. In most UPS systems, you get far cleaner power since you gear is never actually connected to the mains. Almost all decent UPS's these days put out a clean sine wave as well. 

 

Add an inexpensive power strip that isolates each plug; it can be fed from the UPS, and the result is power that is about as clean as it gets. At least from the $200-$250 range.  If you are powering monster amps, that price would go up of course. But not dramatically,  you don't need to buy for expensive runtimes. Buy for clean power. It doesn't matter if it runs for five minutes instead of 50 during a power outage, not really.

 

P.S. - Some folks have reported that their systems sounded a little "dull" when put the music on a UPS. I do not hear that, but have never measured the outputs. I expect the outputs, UPS or Mains, to be very close, but I do not know that. I do prefer the sound when the system is filtered through the UPS. 

[Paul R]

39 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

  I tried that.  The UPS still injects noise of its own.

 

Here, the UPS is very clean. Does take isolation to avoid one device polluting the other, and you have to use an inverting UPS. Pass through power with standby batteries is no better than a wall plug. 

 

Do you remember exactly what you saw? Type of noise, magnitude, etc.? 

 

 

[Paul R]

8 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

 I could hear it.   It was a digital noise effect.  This is what I bought...

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1354477-REG/apc_smt750c_smart_ups_750va_lcd_120v.html

 

This was a higher end APC unit.  After listening with it,  I contacted APC and asked about it and they agreed.  Its not designed for audiophile use,  but for high quality utilitarian office use.  When you get a better sine wave on battery its keeps things like the spinning hard drives from being damaged. Moving things like a hard drive can be damaged with much use with the likes of the typical saw tooth wave found with standard UPS on battery.

 

Ummm- with respect - no. Besides only the cheapest UPS units not pushing out clean sine waves these days, if that were true, then almost every data center in the world would be in big trouble.

 

I suggest you got ahold of person an PAC not familiar with the special needs of audio gear. If nothing else, remember those hard drives are going to be attached to a power supply, not directly to the mains. 

 

On the other hand, whatever sounds better to you is a perfectly valid way to choose what equipment you want in your rig. I find the cost of the "audiophile" power units outrageous, right up there with $10K/meter USB cables. It works from some folks, but not for me.

 

 

[Paul R]

1 hour ago, shtf said:

 

Anyway, good job on taking the plunge.  As you can see, most refuse.  I suspect most refuse because somebody tried an inferior line conditioner and since it did nothing or made things sound worse, they concluded all line conditioners are evil or snake oil.  Then they go out to forums like this one to spread the bad news that all line conditioners are a joke.  When the truth of the of the matter is, only most line conditioners are a joke.  But certainly not all.

 

Not so! 

 

Personally, I have found the most bang for the buck in using a UPS that regenerates the power from battery. A decent one will put out very very clean sine wave power that audio gear just adores. 

 

And truth be told, the Uber expensive units do not sound any better than an APC unit for a couple hundred dollars. Sighted or blind in my case. 

 

-Paul

[Paul R]

54 minutes ago, shtf said:

 

If there was any truth to what you say, then considering the UPS you're speaking of being quite inexpensive and if indeed they provided one of the biggest (not the biggest) jumps in musicality, I'd venture most / all would already own 2, 3, or 4 of these UPS' because it would be a no brainer and considered foundational to every last system.  If what you say is true. 

 

In fact, if what you say held any truth, I'd also venture we wouldn't be dialoguing about this because this thread probably would never have been created because the issue would have been settled years ago.

 

But as things stand, most are still all over the map with many refusing to even engage with new threads like this popping up routinely and with the vast majority of playback systems still sounding like cheap hi-fi.  Which, if anything, would seem to substantiate my position on the matter.

 

 

 

 

Sigh - you are not a very good judge of truth then, because you seem to be stuck on the idea that only very expensive power systems, that really do not do  much more than an inexpensive power strip do, are the only answer to the "power problem."  A problem, I will add, that largely does not exist. 

 

Can an über expensive power unit make your system sound better? Of course. But so can just cleaning the prongs on your electric cable. Often, the improvement is actually comparable. Can,  supplying your system with power from a regenerative UPS make an improvement? Sure, and again, of about the same magnitude.

 

Cleaning your cable or using a decent but inexpensive UPS also has the advantage of letting you upgrade your system in places where it counts more too. DACs, Phonos, Amps, Speakers, speaker cables, etc.

 

Where does paying attention to power really matter?  Inside your unit mostly. Or outside your unit with devices that supply low voltage power, 5v in USB for example. 

 

You are quite welcome to believe what you believe mate, and of course, you should configure your system in a way that pleases you, regardless of what anyone else thinks. But please lay off on claiming a lock on the "truth."  You won't like it when unpleasant facts are shoved back at you. 

 

-Paul 

 

 

[Paul R]

11 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

   Well then....

 

Anyone here want to buy this for only $100.00, plus shipping? 

 

 

                                    APC Smart-UPS 750VA LCD 120V

 

 

 

 

Essential brand new.   Used for only a few days.

 

 

 

 

 

I do not believe that particular model is a true UPS, I think it is a line standby model, and that doesn't buy you the good stuff. 

 

I believe this little guy does double conversion, making it a true UPS, and also is pretty cheap. About $650 new and $250 used.  And remember, the runtime isn't a concern with audio, it is the power filtering.

 

https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/product/ups/ol1000rtxl2u/

 

Superior Electric has some nice models, and APC actually does too, but that ain't one of them. The little $100 model will do just as much as this guy.

 

The man you really want to talk to is probably Barrows. He has a lot of experience, and may not agree with me. But that's okay, cause he will have some great insight to offer, and you have to make up your own mind anyway.

 

-Paul 

 

[Paul R]

14 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

  The one you linked looks just like what is usually used in a isolated room, as for a business network system.  Had one at a hotel telephone room.  That fan gets very loud. I would not recommend it for an audio room.  Have ever had direct use with one?

Yes, and they work quite well in a closet or at the electrical panel.   That particular model is not all that noisy, but it occasionally ramps up, making it too loud to rack in the open with the audio gear. Of course, I rack it with my server gear, as far away as possible from anyplace I want to actually be. At least for any length of time. Even that is shrinking though, as my physical development equipment needs shrink. 

 

i wonder if if a Yeti would work well for you? They are a bit more expensive and have limited runtimes of course. Side benefit is you could run your system off solar. 

 

[Paul R]

10 minutes ago, shtf said:

 

So you compare cleaning your cables "where it really counts" to my claims of superior line conditioners and what I consider one of the biggest musical improvements you or I would ever experience?

 

Clearly one of us is on a different planet.  And I'm starting to think it's me.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, maybe. Or maybe it is me, or maybe we just are talking past each other. Or maybe you are so bent on telling everyone how much you spent on a hunk of audio gear, you have difficulty communicating in a nice manner with people who do not agree with you. 

 

Basically, I do not consider audiophile grade power systems superior to well engineered and far cheaper systems. Just as surely, I do not buy into the “common wisdom” that a UPS hurts the sound of an audio system. I want extraordinary wisdom..

 

 

 

 

Have you ever cleaned the prongs on your power cables? If not try it and see what happens - you may experience a dramatic improvement. 

 

 

[Paul R]

1 hour ago, GeneZ said:

  Not really....

Recharge From the Wall, Car, or Sun:

Easily recharge from an AC outlet in about 18 hours with included charging cable, from a 12V outlet* in about 44 hours, or from a solar panel in up to 6 hours depending on solar conditions and the size of the solar panel*. Works with third-party solar panels, adapters sold separately.

 

Not very practical solution unless I am running a mini amp.

 

Just for fun I hooked up a 1400 here, and got an estimated runtime of over 40 hours. ;).  It can recharge to a full charge easily in about 4 hours with my panels, on a clear sunny day of course. 

 

I do not think it would be practical for a system running a lot, and I also tend to leave everything on most of the time, but it was fun to see.  It can run pretty much all the lights in the house for days on end, and the fridge either for a day, or for several days if I I only throw the breaker on for one hour of every 5. 

 

In any case, it would easily run a small system.

 

-Paul 

 

P.S. And I just realized I could take off into the hills and days of time with music, computers, and a nice midi keyboard....

[Paul R]

56 minutes ago, shtf said:

 

Clearly you know not what you speaketh.  Who let you in here?

 

Do me a favor and take a video recording using your smart phone of one of your better playback performances and post the link here.  And don't worry about the quality cuz it won't matter.  With 12,518 posts under your belt I want to demonstrate something.

 

Yawn - do yourself a favor and grow up some. About the only thing you are demonstrating is an immature mindset. 

 

Anyways, my place is a mess right now... have to clean it up before guests who are not good friends get invited in. But it all runs on very clean power.