Wyred 4 Sound Dac2 vs Calyx 24/192 dac for Active speakers?

[arthrodoc]

Several people on this forum have experience with both of these excellent DACS.

 

I'm considering the Calyx and the W4S Dac2 to connect to active speakers (ADAM A5x) on my computer workstation, currently running J River as media player, files stored on a Synology server to supply this machine as well as my audio system in another room. Have both ripped CD files and HD files from various sources, up to 24/192.

 

(To head off anticipated comments: I realize both of these dacs may be overkill for these speakers, but I may migrate the DAC to the my audio equipment later.)

 

There's been little direct comparison of these two from what I can find, other than the PinkFish bake off which obliquely suggests in that constrained setting that the Calyx was perhaps "better", and the DigitalAudioBlog post which compared the Calyx to the Weiss Dac favourably and the 6Moons comparison of the W4S to the Weiss; so it would seem that the Calyx and the W4S are close in quality.

 

The W4S has some additional features that make it in some ways a better choice: for example volume control, so I don’t have to adjust the volume on each speaker independently. It has some adjustability to (perhaps) better match the speakers and the room, although so do the speakers, and I'll be using them in near field, so the room is less important (I think?) The W4S is also potentially upgradable, according to their website, although there are not yet any upgrades actually made available for it. With the volume control on the W4S, I can wire the DAC -> speakers with balanced cables and still be able to adjust easily.

 

For the Calyx I'd either have to add a preamp or a volume knob, or wire the speakers with RCA cables between them, so one speaker controls the other; or use balanced cables but then have to independently use the volume controls on each speaker.

 

The RCA cable solution might work fine, since the difference in this setting between short RCA cables and short XLR cables is likely small (or is it?) I don't really want to add the cost or the extra connections and probable loss of quality of extra controls.

 

The specs seem close for both, with the main difference seeming to be the output stage with Calyx using XMOS chips, and the W4S using discrete components; and it seems the USB input to each is using different drivers, from what I can understand.

 

The other main difference is the W4S is much bigger and a little industrial in appearance, while the Calyx is a much cleaner, more elegant design.

 

The Calyx is much simpler in design: does this mean more has gone into ensuring better sound given it doesn't try to do as much as the Dac2, or into the visual design?

 

They are roughly the same price, although it'll cost a bit more to land the Calyx as duty will need to be added (in Canada.) The W4S is available from a Canadian distributor, so no duty.

 

I suspect, from what I've been reading, that they are pretty close, but before pulling the trigger, I'd like to hear what those older and wiser than I have to say. (Well, maybe not older or wiser, but having had more experience in these expensive devices!)

 

[bhobba]

I don't know anything about the Calyx but I have the WFS DAC 2 in my system right now. Its a good DAC but others are definitely better IMHO. I have lent the DAC 2 to a number of people to try and what they all say (and I agree with it) is yes it sounds good but it has no excitement factor such as for example the mercury like midrange of the Tranquility (it is a better DAC IMHO). It also sounds a bit cold in the top end and maybe has a slight sibilance issue. I will even tell you what DAC's best it IMHO - they are - Lite DAC 83, Audio GD Ref 7, Tranquility DAC and PDX. You can find a review of them all here:

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net.au/index.php/audio-reviews/digital-source-reviews

 

My advice is many of those DAC's will give you a free in home no obligation audition. Take them up on the offer and make up your own mind. If they won't be in it then forget about that DAC.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

[seta]

Agree with Bill that best is to try them out in a familiar system.

 

But just some comments from Mike's original post.

 

The Calyx does not have a physical volume control and is limited to only one SPDIF input and one USB input. In theory you can use digital volume control from your computer but that would only give you control for your USB input, not SPDIF. The W4S is full featured with volume control, and even HT pass through.

 

The Calyx sounds better with its XLR output. The DAC chip is run in balance mode, so if you use RCA, then you only utilize half of the chip.

 

The XMOS chip is a USB interface chip, nothing to do with the output stage.

 

 

[arthrodoc]

I appreciate the comments.

 

Consider the note that I want this for USB out, and having to add a quality spdif out will add significantly to the cost.

 

Bhobba: I've noted your posting with respect to the W4S since last year, and your input has certainly given me pause. Note however that I don't want a DAC for legacy spdif support: it is for computer files out.

 

The LiteDac 83 has no USB input: means I have to get additional sound card or rely on spdif support for the m/b under windows, which does not support all sample rates.

 

Audio-gd ref 7 also has no USB input.

 

They do have the NFB-7 using the ESS9018, but no USB input.

 

The audio-gb NFB-8 has usb, but limited to 96/24, using dual WM8741 chips. Looks quite impressive, but as with the Calyx, no volume control option. Might be good alternative to the Calyx, given the price differential and the good feedback about their their designs. Couldn't find much in the way of reviews of this specific model. If it is limited to Windows supported audio sampling rates, might not have 88.2/24 (can't find in specs.)

 

Linehan is similarly spdif only.

 

Tranquility sounds great, but only supports 44.1 USB: no support otherwise for hi res files, unless I downsample.

 

Some of these may be able to be reviewed with a minimal restocking charge, but not to Canada: I get dinged for duty bringing them in, and good luck getting it back on returning, never mind the shipping charges to return.

 

Seta: thanks for that. I misread/misunderstood the specs about the XMOS. If the Calyx sounds better with XLR, I lose something by going to RCA to allow single control with the Adam monitors.

 

There's also the anedio DAC but that limits USB to 44.1 and 48.

 

The new Nuforce DAC-9 limits USB (currently) to 96.

 

The Lindemann DAC 24/192 has no Balanced out, but does support 88.2 and 176.2 with a driver; has no volume control. Also does not currently have a Win7/64 driver. There's also currently no Canadian distributor, and one US source I found won't ship to Canada!

 

I also considered the RME Babyface, and although it could work, the fact it packs so much into the package suggests the dac alone may not be at the same level.

 

There are also the Benchmark HDR and the Grace Design 903, but they are 25% more (here) and also pack more in, and I've not found and comparisons of these with the w4s and the calyx or Weiss dacs.

 

I'm sure I've missed some...

 

I still come back to the Calyx and the W4S; and perhaps, from the above, the audio-gd NFB-8, with reservations.

 

I have found it quite frustrating to learn that although computer motherboards have chips that can support 88.2 and 176.4 on the m/b, that win 7 doesn't support these sampling rates, and the drivers supplied by the m/b manufacturer or the chip maker (eg Realtek) will not support them either. Came up after I downloaded an 88.2/24 file from HDTracks (accidentally) and found I couldn't play it without resampling.

 

These issues mean either buying a card to get access to a driver to implement those rates on an spdif out (and adding cost, as well as power and heat to the pc, which is designed to be quiet and use low power) ... or buying a USB dac to get access to their high res drivers. After looking at spdif cards, seemed the best one currently available for the pcie bus is the RME HDSPe AIO, which is $800.

 

So ...

 

Yes, I'd love to audition some of these. Not currently feasible, so like others I rely on observations of others in this and other forums.

 

Hmmmm ... decisions, decisions.

 

 

[seta]

Here's a nice list of 24/192 capable USB DACs.

 

[arthrodoc]

I'd seen that. Most of them are quite pricey.

 

The Onkyo looks nice, but doesn't support 88.2 or 176.4 over USB. Noted that it also needs a separate stepdown transformer in N America, since it needs 100v.

 

As time goes on, the prices will stay the same; we'll just get more specs/$.

 

 

[bhobba]

Hi Mike

 

'Linehan is similarly spdif only.'

 

I see where you are coming from now. I presume you mean Lenehan instead of 'Linehan'. That DAC is available in your choice of input - USB, SPDIF or I2S. And the new USB they have is the John Kenny modified Hiface with I2S. John Darko who did those reviews I linked to compared the Tranquility to a PDX through the standard USB and it was a close thing with perhaps a slight edge going to the PDX. I have verified the same thing personally. But via the John Kenny - Johns exact words were - 'the Tranquility was caught with its pants down'. That why it is now being offered with that option

 

That said I understand buying a product unheard from a place like Australia is a big ask. I just live about 30 minutes away from Lenehan Audio and know Mike Lenehan and the designer Clay Giesler personally. Basically they are my local Hi Fi shop. Because of that I would have zero problems doing it. But you are taking a much bigger risk and in your place I would shy away from it. Also the PDX aren't cheap - it's more expensive that the WFS especially with the extra costs you would have to pay.

 

In your situation I would tend to opt for the WFS. I am listening to the Carpenters through it right now and it is good. IMHO it is way better than the Burson 6 Moons gushed on about. Everyone I lent the WFS to liked it. They just were not wowed by it - that's all.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

[Codifus]

The Calyx is much simpler in design: does this mean more has gone into ensuring better sound given it doesn't try to do as much as the Dac2, or into the visual design?

 

The W4S is big mainly because it uses discrete components. It's just like how a Burson discrete opamp is very big compared to similarly functional IC opamps like the burr brown OPA2132, analog devices AD8599 etc.

 

CD

 

[Cortes]

bhobba,

 

out of curiosity, because shipping from Australia must be terribly expensive, is there any web where the PDX is offered with prices, features, etc?. I've been unable to find any.

 

Best.

 

[Rumbleripper]

I am very happy with the Calyx DAC in my setup. I am running it from a dedicated Macmini (I am running Audirvana currently as the player and am very amazed at what this open source player does for the music) via USB and balanced into my headphone amp, a Woo Audio WA-22. I strictly use it for headphone listening, using my recently acquired Audeze LCD-2's. The sound out of the whole combination is amazing. I never thought headphone listening could sound this good.

The Calyx has definitely added to the sound. I previously had a JK modded M2Tech HiFace (24/192 USB interface) running to a Matrix Mini-i DAC. This was a good setup also and sounded very nice, but the Calyx was a definite improvement to that.

From a functional standpoint I have not had any issues. Aesthetically it is a beautiful piece of audio gear and complements the Macmini very well. I ordered directly from the Manufacturer, and they shipped me the unit into Canada, again with no issues.

I am not an "audiophile" per say, just enjoy great sounding music, and really can't compare it to the W4S Dac2 as I have no experience with it at all. Looking over its specs and reviews of the W4S, it does seem to be a nice unit. It has more inputs than the Calyx so if that is needed by you then I would consider that over the Calyx. Also as you have stated there is no volume control on the Calyx so you will have to spend more for that functionality if you need it. When I am listening to my system I am sitting right beside my Headphone amp and adjust the volume of the amp as needed so this is not an issue for me.

I did not spend a lot of time in my decision to purchase the Calyx, read a few reviews and looked at the photos online and felt that it would meet my needs, of which it has without question. So I am completely satisfied with my purchase.

Could I have gotten a better deal with something else or better sound? Perhaps, but there are thousands of audio components out there, which I have neither the time or inclination to check out or read about, and you can always wonder "what if".

Personally I have found something that satisfies my musical requirements and now just enjoy the music.

 

Peace,

 

Rumble

 

 

[arthrodoc]

Hi Bill ..

 

You have posted quite a bit about the Lenehan pdx, and I have followed the thread in stereo.net with interest:

 

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/30169-Level-2-PDX

 

However ... it is still not up on the Lenehan website, and from the comments in the thread, seems that it is a handbuilt custom job, designed for each customer, and they have had enough customers in Oz or from "word of mouth (or internet)" that they haven't felt the need to put info on their website.

 

From what I can see with the above thread, the PDX becomes fairly expensive with add-ons, depending on what you want, starting at around $2000 (doesn't matter with current exchange rates: US = CDN = AUD) and going up to ~ $4000, depending on what addons or mods you might think necessary.

 

That the Lenehan may be "better" than the W4S or Calyx doesn't surprise me... it's getting up into expensive territory. Question is really how does it compare with the upper tier of DACs. By implication from your comments, very well.

 

It's not really a comparison to what I would call mid-priced DACs, when you start comparing a "level 2" PDX which is more than double the price.

 

Re: the Burson HA-160D: I'd forgotten about that one. Certainly reads well from the 6Moons review.

 

They don't actually state, however, that it supports 88.2/24 anywhere in the documentation on the website. The 6Moons review doesn't mention it. If it's relying on Windows drivers, that implies it will only support 44.1, 48 and 96, so you miss out on the 88.2 files available, or have to resample them.

 

I've fired off a note to them for clarification.

 

I'm surprised though, from what I read about it, and your comments here and elsewhere that you find the W4S dac sounds better: I'd have predicted the opposite. Sounds like you've heard both: can you comment how it sounds better (different?) I know W4S has their own discrete output stage as well, and that is something they care about.

 

Edit: found the thread where you comment on it:

 

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/30428-Burson-Audio-won-the-Blue-Moon-Award-with-their-DAC-Preamp-Headamp-3-in-1.

 

If you've heard both and find the W4S is an improvement on it, it makes my decision making easier!

 

Thanks for all your comments.

 

[bhobba]

The PDX is available from Lehehan Audio:

http://www.lenehanaudio.com.au/

 

But they haven't put it on their site yet. While not cheap shipping to the US is not too bad - probably under $100.00

 

The best place to find out details is John Darko's review

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net.au/index.php/audio-reviews/digital-source-reviews/item/188-lenehan-audio-pdx-base-level-dac

 

The price etc has been posted elsewhere eg:

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/30169-Level-2-PDX

 

How good is it? The Level 2 is one of the two best DAC's I have ever heard (the other is the Killer DAC) and of those is the cheapest.

 

IMHO the reason to get the PDX is the upgrade-ability and support. Its a first class performer and up there with the best DAC's at any price - but I know of other DAC's such as the lite83 and Audio GD Ref 7 in that category as well. However you wont get the same level of support as technology changes. For example I am getting a version built with the John Kenny Hiface. Things like that are not available on the Lite etc. Of course you pay extra for that - but I think in the long run it will be cheaper.

 

The Burson is good in its price range and has a warm likable sound but when compared to a genuine reference DAC it sounds like a blanket has been placed over the speakers. IMHO the WFS is better - but I also have to say some people preferred the Burson.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

[seta]

I have not heard the W4S, but heard the Burson in a non familiar system compared to an M2Tech Young DAC. The Burson is the more laid back and easier listening of the two.

 

Bill,

Who is Clayton Geiseler? Any insights?

 

[bhobba]

Clayton Gieseler is the tech that does the electronic work for Lenehan Audio. This entails fixing and upgrading amps, DAC's etc etc. He is also a talented designer that using some general principles Mike Lenehan wanted in the PDX designed it eg it was to have a valve output stage. That's because in Mikes experience valves sounded better. I don't necessarily agree with that - both can sound fantastic IMHO - but a lot of mediocre SS designs are about and that does tend to turn off quality designers. He and Mike are constantly working together to improve and enhance the PDX - eg they are working on a capacitor-less version using nothing but high quality transformers. Clay is also integrating the John Kenny Highface into the PDX and since it has a battery supply is looking at other parts of the PDX that can be operated from a battery. It is quite likely it will become the standard USB input. They have also found, like the Tranquility DAC guys, that even the switch that allows you to select different inputs degrades the DAC's performance and in future only DAC's with a single input will be offered.

 

Clay is also working on a KT88 valve amp specifically designed to power Mike Lenehan's Speakers - the ML1 and ML3. Right now he uses a Mac 501 but thinks he can exceed that performance at a much reduced cost (it is $20K here is Aus). I however have set a high bar with my Leben CS300XS which IMHO exceeds the 501's - but of course it is only 15W which limits the volume - they are not particularly sensitive at 86 and 89 db respectfully. However they can take oodles of power without distress and Mike wants to exploit that with the KT88 amps. I also have an 8W SET I use on my ML1 and ML3's - it sounds divine but you are severely limited in your volume levels. You probably have gathered I am in the less but higher quality watts camp for amps.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

[KDinsmore]

W4S DAC2 is killer. I've had mine for just over a month now and it keeps getting better. You have to put hours on this to notice changes. Even my old Proceed DAP/CDD rig needed big hours to come into it's own. Make sure if someone offers their opinion on this that they've logged at least 100+ hours. Plus this works as a pre-amp as well. If you are going direct inject from file source you need this and an amp and done.

 

[arthrodoc]

I did finally hear back from Burson. There was an issue mentioned in the 6moons review, and that had been resolved:

 

That USB receiver firmware issue identified in the 6moons review has been fully resolved. All currently selling units support up to 96/24 through USB and 192/24 through coaxial.

 

When playing an 88/24 audio file, the DAC either upsample it to 96/24 or lower it to 44. This is completely software dependent and is out of our control...

 

So it appears it relies on Windows for USB2, which doesn't natively support 88.2.

 

I decided, after considering input from the discussion above, to go with the W4S Dac2, which arrived late last week. I'm listening to an HDTracks download of 96/24 Sonny Rollins Saxophone Colossus at the moment while "burning it in" and so far am quite pleased. It does everything I'd hoped, even though I suspect at the moment I'm barely scratching the surface of what it can do.

 

I'm using some older Roland active speakers at the moment while waiting for my Adam A7x speakers to arrive. I expect they'll be considerably better, but even these old speakers sound good. Certainly no harshness to what I'm hearing at the moment.

 

I'll update on the sound of this combo once I've run them for a while.

 

I have had an issue with what I'd describe as fairly wobbly (warbly?) sound using JRiver Wasapi, which disappears with using Wasapi Event style. I suspect that's my computer, not the DAC.

 

Once it's burned in, I'll also compare it with my "main" system, which has my HDPlex music player connected to my Marantz SA8004 as DAC and SACD player, which I'll be interested to hear side by side with the W4W DAC2, at least at supported sampling rates.

 

[arthrodoc]

Everything I'd hoped.

 

Finally got them hooked up today. The DAC2 has a almost 2 months use on it now, and I've hooked up it to my new A7x speakers today. These are new out of the box, and so far with only 10 hours on them, the combination is great. I don't get any sense of sibilance or "brightness." Have played thru a series of HDtracks 88.2 or 96 downloads I've been accumulating, everything sounds superb. I'm listening to the Koln concert at the moment, something I've enjoyed for almost 30 years, since my girlfriend first played if for me (must have worked: we have 3 kids, and married almost 25 years ago.)

 

Playlist for today: Clapton's slowhand; Peterson's Night Train; Jarret; Lang Lang live at Carnegie Hall; Raising Sand; Beggars Banquet; Gaucho .... I like what I'm hearing.

 

I just sit here playing track after track and loving what I'm hearing. Some I'm really familiar with, some new. Downloaded the Stones in high def just to see... and was surprised at how good they sound, and how easy to understand what Jagger is singing. (I often have a hard time with lyrics, but with these tracks and this setup, sounds totally different from what I expected: I'll have to get a bunch more!)

 

..Mike

 

[jky999]

The reviews on the Calyx look quite promising. The part that weirds me out is the units is powered from your PC's USB. Whenever I've been able to swap psu's on a piece of gear, it has resulted in a marked improvement. I owned the DAC2. It's a great piece of gear. Within it's sonic presentation, it's really good. Sure you can do better, but it would cost you more. I've cycled through most of the DAC's out there and the lesson I've learned is that you've got to decide on your preferred sonic landscape and then take it from there.

 

I'm running a LIO-8 to some ATC active monitors. It sounds great. A very immediate and dynamic sound.

 

It's amazing what $1,500 gets you in a dac these days. Combine it with some active monitors and you get great sound for not too much money in audiophile-ville.

 

 

 

[Johnny Moondog]

Back in March I imported the Calyx 24/192 directly from the manufacturer Digital & Analog in South Korea, and have been extremely happy with the quality of it's sound. I also appreciate the construction quality of a sold block of aluminum and the fit and finish of it's connectors.

 

Don't know if you are aware of this feature or not, but the USB power is an option. There is a toggle switch on the back for selecting between USB power or an attached Power Supply. I've read some user reviews that an improvement is noticed by using the 5 volt 3 amp version of the KingRex PSU II. But they had to re-solder a new longer plug onto it, because the one that comes with the KingRex is too short.

 

Audio Magnus will soon be importing the Calyx to the U.S., and they will also be offering the KingRex PSU II with a proper power cable for the Calyx. So if you're interested you might want to contact them.

 

http://www.audio-magus.com/default.asp

 

Unfortunately I've come down with a serious case of the Digital Audiophile Virus, and am in the process of upgrading from the Calyx to the new AMR DP-777. But I would highly recommend the Calyx to anyone looking for a DAC at the $1500 price point.

 

 

[moschlegel]

@Johnny Moondog

Just a suggestion here, you really should consider not buying a high dollar item like a Calyx DAC from Audio Magus. Read the all the recent customer complaints against them. I'm personally in the middle of a paypal dispute and now a claim against them.

 

[moschlegel]

Paypal found in my favor, I got my $257 back. Audio Magus didn't even seem to reply to the dispute at all at least nothing that was shown in my dispute page.