Music Hall Dac25.3

[Jef Paas]

Hello

 

does anybody here have a Dac25.3?

 

what are your impressions?

 

how many hours have you logged?

 

how many hours to really break in that single tube?

 

what input are you using?

 

which input from my macbook pro is better; toslink or usb?

 

thx

 

jef

 

[HiFiInsider]

Anyone here has one? How's the headphones amp?

 

[Jef Paas]

I have not tried the headphone out yet.

 

However i just picked up a V-link and checked out my Old Vista laptop.

 

And WOW what a difference!

 

JP

 

[bombadil111]

Yeah, I have one. This is my first DAC, however, so have no reference to compare to.

 

I don't use the headphone out. But I hear it's decent, nothing to write home about. The rest of the unit is pretty solid.

 

Mines still stock, no tube rolling at this time. But my laptop (W7) running through the Music Hall, onto my MiniWatt tube amp, through Hawthorne Audio ob's sound fantastic!

 

I'm also running extra 15" Hawthorne Augie woofers. This is where I've developed a new found appreciation for this DAC. You see, on back are both RCA and XLR outs. You can use both simultaneously! So, I was able to keep a pure signal to the main amp via RCA, and also run a signal to an active crossover (XLR) and onto my "sub" amp (XLR). Simple, elegant, sound great.

 

Anywho, the Music Hall is a keeper. I'm sure it competes well in the $600, or more, price range.

 

[wpsands]

Hey JP- I have the Music Hall Dac25.3 as well. Do you need the V-Link with the 25.3? I have thought about getting one. What is your impression of the v-link with the DAC?

 

 

Page

 

[discreplayboss]

If I buy the 25.3, it features "Asynchronous Reaclocking" so why would I need to convert the USB to SPDIF before using the DAC?

 

[wpsands]

This is the eternal question

 

[Jef Paas]

v-link because..

 

"Standard computer USB outputs are synchronous. This means that the computer will determine its output data rate at its whim. From an audiophile’s perspective this is a disaster. The data rate might be 14 BIT 32 kHz or it might be at a higher data rate. It just depends on…what the computer decides to do."

"The solution to this problem is asynchrony. Simply put the receiving device instructs the computer to give it data (via its USB output) at whatever rate it has been stored on the computer disc. This is a big change. Now an audiophile can be confident that the data received from his computer is genuinely high quality and unfailingly consistent. Perfect!"

 

JP

 

 

[discreplayboss]

I just emailed the following to Music Hall-

 

 

'm trying to hook up my Vortex Box Server to my hi-fi system and I can't seem to get a clear answer on this issue. If I get a Dac25.3, why would I need a Musical Fidelity V-Link to convert the USB out of the server to SPDIF? If I buy the 25.3, it features "Asynchronous Reaclocking" so why would I need to convert the USB to SPDIF before using the DAC? I'm thinking the answer is I just need the 25.3, but I wanted to verify the answer with you.

 

 

I believe Roy Hall answers the email personally. I'll post their response.

 

 

 

[wpsands]

I picked up a V-Link today and I'm listening with and without the unit in place. I'll post my thoughts over the next couple days.

 

Page

 

[Jef Paas]

You don't need the V-Link with the Dac25.3

It's just antoher box of snake oil feeding into another box of snake oil.

Then to another box of snake oil feed to 250wpc!! To your speakers and out comes some Screaming VanHalen and all is good again!

 

And after a couple of Tequila Difusers you'll never know any difference anyway!

 

LMAO!

 

[discreplayboss]

Talked to Roy Hall today and he confirmed my point above about not needing a V-Link.

 

[Paul R]

Of course you do not need a V-Link, or Halide Bridge, a WaveLength, or even a Berkeley USB 2 S/PDIF adapter. The 25.3 will function just fine without one.

 

But can you benefit acoustically from using one? Well, that all depends on the DAC of course. Usually, a $550 DAC with an ASRC USB interface will benefit to a greater or lesser degree from a higher quality USB adapter.

 

It's a garbage-in / garbage-out type of thing. If you put a better signal into the DAC, it stands to reason you will probably get a better signal out. The V-Link will probably, almost certainly, put out a better signal to feed into the 25.3 than the 25.3 will generate from it's USB input.

 

So again, no, you absolutely do not need one. But you sure might want one.

 

-Paul

 

 

[discreplayboss]

Why would think the v-link's asynchronous USB reclocker is any better then the DAC25.3's?

 

[Jef Paas]

Not necessarily same or better...

 

Just different...

 

i have had some good listening time now with mine, and it does sound better with both laptops. Mostly Rock, Rhythm and Blues or and a Punk tune here and there sometimes more here than there. The MBP is the Ref unit. The XPS just for giggles, both loaded with the same tracks, at the same bit rates, file sizes, formats, same junkie USB cables.

 

then again, the last piece of kit i bought was a new ST-2 fm antenna.....

 

thx

 

JP

 

[Paul R]

The easy answer sounds like a smart alec remark, but it is essentially true.

 

Async USB, such as the V-Link implements, is superior to an ASRC. In any modest hardware implementation (both the V-Link and the DAC 25.3 are modest implementations) it is far easier to get Async USB connections to sound better than ASRC connections.

 

If for no other reason than Async connections reduce jitter far better. A Benchmark USB DAC, which is significantly more expensive than a Music Hall 25.3, benefits quite a bit from a V-Link, and more so from better adapters.

 

Here is a CA article that really gives a good introduction to the subject.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Asynchronicity-USB-Audio-Primer

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

[Jef Paas]

Thx Paul.

 

I concur.

 

and i would send you my Dac25.3 for a week of listening in a heart beat...

 

that's if you would send me your Proton in return. hell i'd through in the XPS too.

 

thx again

 

JP

 

[Paul R]

Actually, I just picked one up from Craigslist the other day that a guy was selling for an irresistible price. I plan on playing with it in the bedroom system when I get a bit of time.

 

I like the little beastie a lot, it has some really nice features, not the least is being able to disable up-sampling. Haven't listened to it for more than a few minutes yet, just enough to be sure it was working.

 

I don't think my wife would let me do that, unless I bought her a Cosecant first.

 

-Paul

 

 

[discreplayboss]

Are you confusing ASRC with Adaptive USB?

 

The Dac25.3 is asynchronous USB capable and has a Ti SRC4192 Asynchronous Sample Rate Converter w/high precision active crystal

oscillator master clock.

 

The former reduces jitter and the latter upsamples the digital sound to 24/192.

 

No one has made a convincing argument to get a V-link with this DAC.

 

[Paul R]

 

The Music Hall Dac 23.5 does not have a true asynchronous USB port on it, and a V-Link or Bridge significantly improves it's sound.

 

Where are you getting your information that the 25.3 has an Async USB port implementation?

 

Do you understand the difference between an adaptive USB port with an ASRC behind it, and a true asynchronous USB port?

 

Did you read Chris' essay that I linked in a previous message? If not, it will fill you in really well.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

[discreplayboss]

Paul, let just say that I'm not trying to say your wrong, or that I know anything more then what I'm reading, and I definitely read Chris's article more then a few times. I just want to try to get to the bottom of this issue, as I have a ridiculous amount of money invested in my system, the room in general, and in my CD collection. BTW, as a fellow Maggie owner, I bet we'd get along fine sonically.

 

This is from the owner's manual on the Music Hall website-

 

To achieve the best sound, we use an advanced

asynchronous reclocking and anti-jitter control system upstream of the PCM1796

digital-to-analog converter. For this system, we are using the Philips 74HC574 in

conjunction with the Texas Instruments SRC4192 Asynchronous Sample Rate

Converter, whose master clock is a high precision active crystal oscillator.

 

[Paul R]

The part of the manual you are reading is not talking about the USB port, but is talking about the ASRC chip, which is used just before the DAC for input signals from all the ports.

 

The USB port on the Music Hall 25.3 is adaptive, not asynch. The only documentation on the USB port in the manual is that it accepts input up to 24/96k, which it does, just adaptively.

 

So the unit takes in data from the USB port adaptively, or from the S/PDIF ports, then feeds it to a ASRC which essentially buffers it up and reclocks it to feed to the DAC chipset.

 

You can seriously improve the S/PDIF inputs by using an external USB 2 S/PDIF adapter. Well above the quality of the onboard USB input. This is pretty much true not only on the MH 25.3, but also on the DacMagic, Benchmark DAC-1, and similar DACs.

 

The V-Link is about the lowest cost unit that performs well. There are many others, but they tend to cost as much or more than the DAC.

 

Asynch USB input is not a panacea for all USB ills, and there are adaptive USB implementations that sound very good indeed. YMMV, but a V-Link or EVO is a "cheap tweak" that can dramatically improve the USB sound with your 25.3.

 

-Paul

 

 

[Jef Paas]

I notice yesterday that while PM was running the fan reved up.

 

I checked iStat and the temps were up and PM was @ 46% usage.

 

Shut down the PM, MBP temp gradually dropped.

 

And to my ears didn't really sound any better or worse.

 

The V-link - Dac25.3 combo trully kicks that much ass!

 

J