Audiolense vs. DIRAC Live : Same Gain Loss?

[nxrm]

I may be able to use this interface to build a 5.3  system (three powered subs). https://motu.com/products/avb/8a

 

 

I would certainly enjoy it for music listening, and which may be greatly enhanced via this software. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auro-3D    

https://www.auro-3d.com/

 

But just as often I'd want to use the system for playing 1080p BD movie disks via JRiver. https://jriver.com/ 

 

The plan is for JRiver to output the video from my graphic's card's HDMI port to my TV, while it decodes the BD movie's DTS-MA to a 5.1 PCM signal and sending it via USB to the MOTU 8A.

 

Regarding the analog outputs, https://motu.com/products/avb/8a/specs.html it appears that each of the eight balanced outputs deliver 20 dbu max output/channel, or ~ 7.8 volts/channel, as per this chart. https://www.sowter.co.uk/decibels.php

 

Given the MOTU's (undistorted) output level range, and depending on speaker sensitivity, amplifier input sensitivity/gain, room size and volume levels, might these two software achieve comparable room correction results-but with one of them imposing much less gain loss?

https://www.dirac.com/live/ 

 

https://juicehifi.com/butikk/

 

Or another solution?

[El Guapo]

20 hours ago, nxrm said:

The plan is for JRiver to output the video from my graphic's card's HDMI port to my TV, while it decodes the BD movie's DTS-MA to a 5.1 PCM signal and sending it via USB to the MOTU 8A.

Just curious, what TV has USB output and can connect to multichannel DAC?

[nxrm]

No, what I meant was that my pc's HDMI port feeds the video to my TV and my pc feeds the MCH audio to 8 channel DAC via USB.

[cjf]

On 3/13/2023 at 12:53 AM, nxrm said:

might these two software achieve comparable room correction results-but with one of them imposing much less gain loss?

https://www.dirac.com/live/ 

 

https://juicehifi.com/butikk/

The amount of Gain losses is more dependent on the target curve you choose to implement not really the software used to get there.

 

Dirac is pretty User friendly and very "Apple'ish" in its GUI implementation making things quite easy for beginners to dip their toes into the water. Nothing wrong with that, but you may find yourself wanting much more control later. But then again maybe you wont?

 

Audiolense is about as flexible as you can get but its not a simple platform to learn.  The time spent learning it though is well worth the effort if SQ is a top priority.

 

Having limited guardrails with the software used allows you to implement as little or as much Correction as you want, exactly where and how you want it which could result in almost no gain losses at all depending on which route you choose.

[nxrm]

On 3/24/2023 at 9:47 PM, cjf said:

The amount of Gain losses is more dependent on the target curve you choose to implement not really the software used to get there......

 

Having limited guardrails with the software used allows you to implement as little or as much Correction as you want, exactly where and how you want it which could result in almost no gain losses at all depending on which route you choose.

I'm still almost a total noob with room correction, but for now is this https://juicehifi.com/produkt/audiolense-convolver/ built into this? https://juicehifi.com/produkt/audiolense-2-0/ 

 

However, the latter only seems to work with 2.0 systems. What if you want to add a pair of powered subs?

 

Admittedly, I haven't yet read the tutorials on any room correction software, but here are my current issues:

 

My room is ~ 20 ft x 14; sloping ceiling 11 ft to 8 ft. It opens into a 9 ft x 10 kitchen and 3.4 ft x 15 hallway. One large window, usually closed.

 

I'm having a pair of speakers built from a proven design for a 2.1 system. The main speakers are ~ 94db spl/w/m. The midwoofers play down to 70Hz, below which my pair of Rythmik sealed subs will take over. The plate amps in the subs have balanced differential inputs to allow for better subwoofer placement options. Might this help minimize the need for generating room correction filters which would otherwise result in high gain losses?

 

I've yet to decide on the stereo amp for the main speakers, but hopefully it will have relatively high input sensitivity. That's because I want to drive that amp and the subs directly from this DAC, using its unbalanced and balanced outputs, respectively. https://benchmarkmedia.com/collections/digital-to-analog-audio-converter/products/benchmark-dac3-hgc-digital-to-analog-audio-converter

 

But referring to this conversion chart https://www.sowter.co.uk/decibels.php and then clicking on the DAC’s specs, see that while the balanced outputs have a range that maxes out to at least 17.3 volts the unbalanced outputs only do less than 3.7 volts before clipping.

 

Therefore, if using room correction software,  like Audiolense or DIRAC, they may generate a filter that could cause a ~ 7db or greater signal loss, which might leave DAC's unbalanced outputs without enough output to drive the main amp.

 

Far worse, if there's some high-level transient spike of noise or in the source material for which the DAC's unbalanced outputs don't have the output voltage to at least equal in amplitude, could it clip the DAC's output and damage my horn driver diaphragms, even if my normal listening level from the main speakers will likely be well under 85db?

 

So far, the only power amps I've found whose unbalanced inputs might have enough input sensitive vs. output power is Benchmark's own power amp and https://parasound.com/a23+.php

 

The latter has adjustable gain pots https://parasound.com/a23+.php , but until I hear from Parasound Support it's unclear how much input voltage is required for the unbalanced inputs to deliver at least half of the A23+ full power into 8 ohms.

 

How would that change when using those gain control pots with unbalanced inputs?

 

Will noise and/or distortion increase appreciably if the gain pots have to be turned up at least half way?

 

I'll post the answers when they reply.

 

Please advise.

[jrobbins50]

If you are using powered subs and you want to correct the sound for either a 2.1 (3 channel) or 2.2 (4 channel) format, you need to use Audiolense XO and a multichannel DAC. The Dac3 won’t work because it is only 2 channels. 
 

If you want to use only a 2 channel DAC, then you’ll need a preamp that can take the DAC output and do the crossovers within the preamp to send the LFE to the powered subs and the mid and high frequency material to you stereo amp for output to the main speakers. 
 

I run a 5.1.2 system which enables Atmos playback, with the .1 really being two subs running together as a single sub. I use no preamp and my Audiolense correction filters take out 6dB of headroom. Plenty of undistorted volume, but I am using the rather powerful Bel Canto REF600s for my mains and center channel (300W at 8 ohms). A lesser powered set of amps might require the use of a preamp. For example, I know that @Kal Rubinsonuses several Topping Pre90 preamps in his multichannel setup to boost the gain into his amps. JCR 

[nxrm]

2 hours ago, jrobbins50 said:

If you are using powered subs and you want to correct the sound for either a 2.1 (3 channel) or 2.2 (4 channel) format, you need to use Audiolense XO and a multichannel DAC. The Dac3 won’t work because it is only 2 channels. 
 

If you want to use only a 2 channel DAC, then you’ll need a preamp that can take the DAC output and do the crossovers within the preamp to send the LFE to the powered subs and the mid and high frequency material to you stereo amp for output to the main speakers. 
 

 

May I ask what DAC are you using?

https://www.oktoresearch.com/dac8pro.htm

https://www.exasound.com/Products/s88StreamingDAC.aspx

Or a MCH processor?

 

But might Audiolense-or at least the particular filters which needed to generate- be somehow more efficient than DIRAC Live 3, that KR uses? I ask this because he complained of DIRAC imposing almost 20db gain loss. His DAC is the Exasound S88 which only does ~4.1 v/channel balanced. But are not the input sensitivity of his Benchmark and/or NAD power amps relatively high, while delivering 100 w, 8 ohms

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-specifications and 185 w , 8 ohms?

https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-c-298-power-amplifier-specifications

 

I don't know what KR uses for a center channel amp, but if the center produces mostly vocals then that's unlikely what's responsible for much gain loss (?). And he uses three SVS powered subs.

 

But given the above, how likely would KR's gain loss be low enough not need the multiple Topping preamps he uses if he used Audiolense rather than DIRAC?

 

Also, regarding my 2.1 system (two powered subs mono driven), are you saying that with Audiolense I would only need the use a preamp, and not something like miniDSP hardware, which includes converters?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jrobbins50]

1 hour ago, nxrm said:

May I ask what DAC are you using?

https://www.oktoresearch.com/dac8pro.htm

https://www.exasound.com/Products/s88StreamingDAC.aspx

Or a MCH processor?

I use the Okto dac8pro. 

 

But might Audiolense-or at least the particular filters which needed to generate- be somehow more efficient than DIRAC Live 3, that KR uses? I ask this because he complained of DIRAC imposing almost 20db gain loss.

 

With Audiolense, you select the amount of dB correction. When my front height speakers were the small KLHs and I was powering them with a 45W Parasound amp, I had a lot more dB loss — 12-15dB — because the speakers elsewhere in the array were running 300W amps. Now, my front height speakers are running off a 250W Bel Canto REF501S amp, which is a much better match and my dB loss to run the correction is only 6dB. 

 

His DAC is the Exasound S88 which only does ~4.1 v/channel balanced. But are not the input sensitivity of his Benchmark and/or NAD power amps relatively high, while delivering 100 w, 8 ohms

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-specifications and 185 w , 8 ohms?

https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-c-298-power-amplifier-specifications

I can’t speak to this. 

 

I don't know what KR uses for a center channel amp, but if the center produces mostly vocals then that's unlikely what's responsible for much gain loss (?).

 

I can’t speak to this, either.
 

And he uses three SVS powered subs.

Yes. I use two GoldenEar SuperSub XXLs in my system. 

 

1 hour ago, nxrm said:

 

But given the above, how likely would KR's gain loss be low enough not need the multiple Topping preamps he uses if he used Audiolense rather than DIRAC?

I can’t say for sure, but he uses the same switching between sources — a Coleman switch — as I do and he started out, like me, without any preamp — DAC straight to the amps. In his system, he couldn’t get enough gain. In mine, I now do. 

1 hour ago, nxrm said:

 

Also, regarding my 2.1 system (two powered subs mono driven), are you saying that with Audiolense I would only need the use a preamp, and not something like miniDSP hardware, which includes converters?

Well, you still need a DAC.  If you are going to run it as a 2.0 system, with left main and subs as left channel and right main and subs and right channel, then a preamp to do the crossover between the DAC and your amps will suffice. If you want to run a true 2.1 system, you are using three channels which requires a multichannel DAC. But then, Audiolense will create the crossovers for the subs and no preamp is required — the LFE output of the DAC would go strength to the powered subs. JCR 

1 hour ago, nxrm said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

2 hours ago, nxrm said:

But are not the input sensitivity of his Benchmark and/or NAD power amps relatively high, while delivering 100 w, 8 ohms

They both have relatively high gain as used, 28-29dB with the Benchmark bridged.

2 hours ago, nxrm said:

I don't know what KR uses for a center channel amp,

Same as for L/R and the presumption that the center "produces mostly vocal" does not apply in classical music.

2 hours ago, nxrm said:

But given the above, how likely would KR's gain loss be low enough not need the multiple Topping preamps he uses if he used Audiolense rather than DIRAC?

I can go without the additional gain from the Topping amps if I was willing to live with a marginal cushion.  W/O the Topping or with them set to 0dB gain, my level setting on the Okto or exaSound is at or under -10dB, sometime in single digits.  I am not comfortable with such a margin.

2 hours ago, nxrm said:

But might Audiolense-or at least the particular filters which needed to generate- be somehow more efficient than DIRAC Live 3, that KR uses?

It is not a matter of "efficiency."  It is a matter of how much boost compensation one needs to employ as that will determine how much general attenuation is applied globally in order not to generate overload.

 

[nxrm]

16 minutes ago, jrobbins50 said:

 

Well, you still need a DAC.  If you are going to run it as a 2.0 system, with left main and subs as left channel and right main and subs and right channel, then a preamp to do the crossover between the DAC and your amps will suffice. If you want to run a true 2.1 system, you are using three channels which requires a multichannel DAC. But then, Audiolense will create the crossovers for the subs and no preamp is required — the LFE output of the DAC would go strength to the powered subs. JCR 

 

 

Thus, with a pair of speakers and two pairs of subs I'd need 3 (sub mono) or 4 (sub stereo) DAC channels; so two Benchmark stereo DACs (or the Okto 8 Pro) in either case. Then use Audiolense XO-instead of the sub's crossover-to cross the subs with the mains?

 

Does that XO software also do the room correction, or is additional software needed?

 

Question: I realize that your Bel Canto mono blocks likely output ample power vs. input voltage. But since you have the Ocko 8 Pro DAC, did you go for the higher output voltage option? Or would doing yield less resolution and/or more distortion when using the remote volume control?

 

 

 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

9 minutes ago, nxrm said:

Thus, with a pair of speakers and two pairs of subs I'd need 3 (sub mono) or 4 (sub stereo) DAC channels; so two Benchmark stereo DACs (or the Okto 8 Pro) in either case. Then use Audiolense XO-instead of the sub's crossover-to cross the subs with the mains?

Yes.

9 minutes ago, nxrm said:

Does that XO software also do the room correction, or is additional software needed?

I have not used it but I understand that it will do both.

[jrobbins50]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Yes.

I have not used it but I understand that it will do both.

It does indeed. JCR 

[nxrm]

Speaking of the Ockto, I wish they would have made it with user selectable output voltage, like the Benchmark DACs.

[Kal Rubinson]

9 hours ago, nxrm said:

Speaking of the Ockto, I wish they would have made it with user selectable output voltage, like the Benchmark DACs.

Or the Merging Hapi II.   You just have to pay for it.

[cjf]

On 4/9/2023 at 4:12 PM, nxrm said:

Thus, with a pair of speakers and two pairs of subs I'd need 3 (sub mono) or 4 (sub stereo) DAC channels; so two Benchmark stereo DACs

I believe you would need some kind of "box" connected to the Music server as the first device in the chain which can present the server with multiple channel paths (like a MiniDSP box or similar) to route the various room corrected channels thru. This box would sit in front of the two, 2channel Benchmark DAC's in order to use that approach. So as an example, Channels 1 & 2 would go to the main L/R speaker pair and Channels 3 & 4 would go to the two Subs.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, without such a "box", the music server would only ever "see" the 2 Channels of the first Benchmark DAC it was directly connected to and if you create room correction filters within Audiolense or similar for all your speakers they all need to have directly addressable channel paths to route thru. 

 

Also, in case its been overlooked, you need to have a multi-channel AD converter as well to record the signal sweep used to generate your room correction filters so that each speaker being captured is given its own directly addressable channel to modify within Audiolense or similar. If your going to run Mono Subs, this still applies because if all channels are not given there own routable/addressable path then you are forced to make all your room corrections against only the two main L/R speakers and you lose out on the ability to have different settings for the Subs vs the main L/R speakers.

 

The Benchmark has a Digital Out option which can be used to feed the second Benchmark DAC from the same source signal of the first Benchmark but it will just be a duplicated signal from the first Benchmark (so in other words, it would only contain the signal from Channels 1 & 2 used by your main L/R speakers). 

 

Using multiple 2 channel DAC's is definitely doable but I believe you need another box to accomplish it. Its a bit easier with a multi-channel DAC to begin with IMO.

 

Using a Merging Anubis, Merging HAPI, RME or Motu AD/DA box, just to name a few, for the job to begin with makes all the above possible with as few "boxes" as possible in the signal chain.

[Kal Rubinson]

10 hours ago, cjf said:

I believe you would need some kind of "box" connected to the Music server as the first device in the chain which can present the server with multiple channel paths (like a MiniDSP box or similar) to route the various room corrected channels thru. This box would sit in front of the two, 2channel Benchmark DAC's in order to use that approach. So as an example, Channels 1 & 2 would go to the main L/R speaker pair and Channels 3 & 4 would go to the two Subs.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, without such a "box", the music server would only ever "see" the 2 Channels of the first Benchmark DAC it was directly connected to and if you create room correction filters within Audiolense or similar for all your speakers they all need to have directly addressable channel paths to route thru. 

Nah.  You can do this with MAC-OS by setting up a virtual output device that combines two stereo DACs each fed via its own USB port.  Supposedly, it can also be done with WIN by adding a bit of software like ASIO4ALL or VoiceMeeter.

[cjf]

12 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Nah.  You can do this with MAC-OS by setting up a virtual output device that combines two stereo DACs each fed via its own USB port.  Supposedly, it can also be done with WIN by adding a bit of software like ASIO4ALL or VoiceMeeter.

Interesting.

 

Are there any Bit/Sample Rate, Reliability or Routing issues with the MAC approach that you are aware of?

[Kal Rubinson]

7 minutes ago, cjf said:

Interesting.

 

Are there any Bit/Sample Rate, Reliability or Routing issues with the MAC approach that you are aware of?

Nope but, ideally, a clock link between the DACs would assure it.  I used multiple Mytek DACs.

[El Guapo]

On 4/8/2023 at 9:26 AM, nxrm said:

Therefore, if using room correction software,  like Audiolense or DIRAC, they may generate a filter that could cause a ~ 7db or greater signal loss, which might leave DAC's unbalanced outputs without enough output to drive the main amp.

We're talking about the loss of dynamic range when DSPing. The signal loss (or insertion loss) does not equal, also not proportional to real SPL loss. Loss 7dB in digital domain is something like 24bit -> 23bit that small. If speaker's SPL calibration can be done properly prior than log sweep, in my experience, the real SPL loss is very small.

 

In my case, after done the DRC I even need to dial down 1dB to match the target SPL:

 

[Treeps]

Hello experts. Im a relative novice living  in little old New Zealand wanting to make a massive improvement to my sound source in a 5.1 - will be 5.2 set up. I was captued by a few reviews of the Hapi, including yours Kal but  I need help. I will be moving from a single source heavily modified Oppo 205 player to a network system and don't know much about what to include where, though I'm reading.

 

I'd like to include DIRAClive tp set up for the room. I'd like to be able to stream from HD music providers as well as play from local storage or from the Oppo. I'd like to be able to handle all the movie and music sound processing options. And I have a big screen and 4k projector so would like to be able to do movies. 

 

Can you direct me to people and configurations which would work and I can emulate and read about. I feel like I'd like to push the button on aquiring the HAPI but there is a lot more to set up for this round of improvements.

 

Baseline: I have a string of Odysey Kismet Amps, Yamaha NS-2000s (rears), and NS- 5000s (fronts),  a  Focal Sopra (centre),  and Paradigm Reference Sub - got to get another.     

       

[Kal Rubinson]

5 hours ago, Treeps said:

Hello experts. Im a relative novice living  in little old New Zealand wanting to make a massive improvement to my sound source in a 5.1 - will be 5.2 set up. I was captued by a few reviews of the Hapi, including yours Kal but  I need help. I will be moving from a single source heavily modified Oppo 205 player to a network system and don't know much about what to include where, though I'm reading.

If you are going to have only 5.2 channels, I do not recommend that you go to the HAPI because it comes with unnecessary complications, as you have probably gleaned from my review.  Using an exaSound, Okto or Topping 8-channel DAC is suitable and so much easier to set up and use.

[scintilla]

I suggest that you look into the Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 HT preamp, which provides up to 16 channels of Dirac, while handling all of the codecs for movies, etc.  It is currently on sale  and that might mitgate the cost of shipping down under.

[Treeps]

That looks like a cover all option. Reviews very nicely. Have you any direct experience with it?

[Treeps]

That looks like a cover all option. Reviews very nicely. Have you any direct experience with it? actually I see you hav one and its partneing MC amp.

 

Any gotchas apart rom a 5 year warranty which unfortunatley for me is probably a $500 courier away. Ha ha

[scintilla]

No gotchas.  It now has a very stable firmware, works seamnlessly and sounds way better than it has any reason to.  Its a great product that has been largely undiscovered because of pandemic-related shortages for quite a long time.  I absolutely love mine.