Playing Roon over RAAT - Does the server matter for SQ?

[miguelito]

I am sure this has been asked before - I might have asked for all I know...

 

Chris's new sotm motherboard review brought this question back up for me...

 

Has anyone experienced a difference in sound quality between various servers when playing over the network - specifically Roon's RAAT?

 

I am always assuming that Roon's core is running comfortably, not hitting CPU or network bandwidth limits.

 

I have tried a few such servers: mac mini, mac laptop with macOS, mac laptop running Ubuntu (natively, not a VM), mac pro with macOS, NUC10i7 running ROCK. I can't say I hear any SQ differences.

 

What are people's experiences?

 

Thx.

 

Miguel

[miguelito]

18 hours ago, miguelito said:

I am sure this has been asked before - I might have asked for all I know...

 

To give a little more color to this... I wonder if using something like an Innuos server with this configuration (ie Roon over RAAT) would yield any improvements. 

 

I once asked a reviewer (someone I don't know personally) if and why there were any differences... He said he hadn't heard any... And I asked why he had not said so... He said if there are no differences it is not interesting to write about... Huh? It is extremely interesting to write about! I think he's concerned high end server manufacturers might get on his case and ask for their loaners back! So sad...

 

But regardless, I want to know if anyone has experienced any differences in this configuration.

[miguelito]

5 hours ago, thijazi said:

when I moved from a HTPC connected via USB to my DAC to a ROCK NUC build which sits far from the Hi-Fi rack (ethernet connectivity streamed via OpticalRendu)

That improvement is absolutely expected.

 

The improvement from NAS to USB connectivity - I assume you heard this improvement with the NUC, as you say, not HTPC+NAS to NUC+USB disk?

[miguelito]

14 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

I think it’s important to consider what changed and what didn’t change when those moved to different servers and hear no difference.  If one server was equipped with a significantly better power supply I would expect that a difference would be heard.  

Setups:

1- Mac mini (i7, 2012, 16GB RAM, 4tb SSD with music over USB) powered with an Uptone JS-2 + macmini MMK kit

 

2- Mac Pro 2010 on Mojave running Roon Core (at the time 1.7 and 1.8) + files on internal SATA drive

 

3- Macbook pro M1-max running Roon Core + files in USB HD

 

4- Macbook pro 13" 2013 running Ubuntu 20.04 + linux Roon Core + files on USB drive

 

5- NUC10i7 on ROCK + files in internal SATA SSD

 

All of the 5 above sound the same to me over RAAT to a dCS Rossini. In all cases network connectivity to the Rossini is over an SFP-Ethernet bridge (so optical to the bridge, ethernet to the Rossini).

 

I don't hear a SQ difference in 1-5 above.

[miguelito]

On 10/16/2022 at 4:42 AM, thijazi said:

Yes, I had the storage attached directly (USB) to the NUC.. It appears that when I had the Roon storage configured via a NAS drive, it worked but slowed down things, and some of that extra work the Roon Server had to do may have impacted sound quality.

Ok... Over RAAT I am not sure I understand the reason - I am assuming this comparison is with the DAC/Streamer connected over the network and playing over RAAT in all cases. If you're talking about a USB connection, then that's different and I could easily see a difference there.

 

As a side note, I will say that I have played the same files over Roon RAAT and also using MinimServer to serve the file and play it using dCS Mosaic to the dCS Rossini. The difference in sound was remarkable. SAME FILE (eg Shuggie Otis's Purple). Even the soundstage was different. Very strange.

[miguelito]

56 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

Which is better, Roon/RAAT or Minimserver? … using Minimserver here and I’m curious …

I have not done a thorough comparison lately but my impression is Minimserver is better.

[miguelito]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:48 AM, SQFIRST said:

For my ears, Roon with Windows based audio sounds similar to what the Lumin App does. Archlinux based audio did not. Again, this is just my ears, not suggesting any absolute here.

Confirming: Over the network (you said RAAT which would imply that)? As I said previously, I fully expect sound quality differences if playing Roon over USB, but over the network... I have never heard differences when playing over RAAT.

 

The sound quality diff between RAAT and UPnP-served files played with dCS Mosaic varies by track, but there was one track of the lot I tested which was bizarre: Shuggie Otis's "Purple". The soundstage sounded different. Reproducibly, no need for blind testing. Bizarre. 

 

My networking config is tip-top: gigabit wired for Roon core machine (NUC10i7 running ROCK), Minimserver machine (mac pro), and the SFP/Ethernet optical bridge going to the DAC (dCS Rossini). On the Rossini side there's a gigabit SFP/Ethernet bridge powered by a linear power supply going to a SOtM Isocat ethernet filter which connects to the Rossini's ethernet port(s). I have tried both gigabit and megabit Rossini ports but hear no difference between those two when playing RAAT.

 

I am not sure what can be improved in this situation, but I would argue the main difference is unchangeable: Via Roon RAAT, the data is sent from the core to the Rossini which uses some form of a Roon-supplied player in the Rossini network board to play the file. When using UPnP file streaming, the Rossini will source the file data as-is and will use some internal player (almost surely different from the RAAT code) to play the file inside the network board. I would in principle chuck the difference to these two apps. 

[miguelito]

47 minutes ago, SQFIRST said:

Roon can sound as good as your baseline system. Is it easy to get it there? I will have to say, No. But just wanted to add my perspective and this is a good topic to hear everyone discuss.

Yes, understand your argument, though my system is fairly lean in terms of hops between devices.

 

I do not use DSP at all. You say you use convolution but surely not when comparing UPnP served files with Roon?

 

I might try the EtherRegen when the new version comes out. In relation to this I did test running the ethernet connection to the dCS Rossini over 100m instead of 1g (it has two ethernet ports, one with a 1g ethernet chip and another one with a 100m one). All these audiophile networking devices seem to have a 100m port for streamers. I don't hear a diff tbh. 

[miguelito]

38 minutes ago, Yiakubou said:

Forget about NAA. I was testing it also while having the HQP PC connected to USB DAC as mentioned. And it does not matter anyway. Again the only difference between the two scenarios mentioned was in Roon continuously streaming to HQP vs. HQP grabbing the data files on its own, not relying on any external continous data stream. Whether HQP was connected to USB DAC or via NAA to an endpoint does not matter in this comparison as that was not changing when switching between the two setups.

Via USB that is not necessarily shocking: Roon is taxing your CPU more than HQP alone.

[miguelito]

1 hour ago, SQFIRST said:

Thanks for a great new music - I listened to this on Qobuz via Roon and it has a nice vinyl like sound. Your description of it sounds like you are getting a lot of digital hash.

I don't think so. It sounds amazing on both Roon and Mosaic, just slightly different.

[miguelito]

55 minutes ago, SQFIRST said:

I misread your earlier remarks about the soundstage to be negative. In this case, it may well be that the Mosaic processor does handle Roon different. Very interesting and will stay tuned in case you discover something new on this in future.

I think it is different playback software, I don't really know. Most of the time the difference is pretty subtle. It was quite noticeable in this case.

[miguelito]

On 11/6/2022 at 3:58 AM, VASKA said:

Hello to all members. I am a very new to the forum. However just last month I made the jump from using a mac mini with all Uptone Audio mods, as Roon core, to using a dedicated Audio Transport - the Pachanko Constellation Mini. Then I also upgraded further by including a Diretta target / Diretta ethernet protocol to the Pachanko Constellation.

 

The investment came after auditioning near all options available (RAAT/bridge...) to me at this price point (eg sotm 200 ultra neo, lumin...). My budget was Euro 2-3k so not anything extraordinary (considering RAAT price range is between Euro 1-50k). I am the "budget" user...

 

Here's a few thoughts on what differences I saw in my system....may help other members considering such setup.

___________________________________
Other System Components:
Speakers: ProAc Studio 125
Pre & Amplification: Musical Fidelity Preamp 8 and MA65 monoblocks
DAC: Project Pre Box RS2 Digital
Keces P8 Linear Power Supply

SOTM snh-10g switch

Furutech/Chord cables
___________________________________
 

Digital Front End Step Changes:

A. Front End Initial setup
Mac Mini with all UpTone Audio mods and Linear Power Supply, Intona USB Isolator

B. Pachanko Constellation Mini RAAT
Constellation Mini (fed by LPS), Intona USB Isolator

C. Pachanko Constellation Mini RAAT & Diretta Target

Constellation Mini (fed by LPS), Diretta Target (fed by LPS), Intona USB Isolator
_____________________________________
 

I don't understand... Are you connecting the DAC to the mini or Pachanko via USB? If so, this is not the question at all here, the question if what is the difference given a server working over RAAT to your DAC. RAAT means over the network.

[miguelito]

On 12/1/2022 at 5:26 AM, Yiakubou said:

Just to add on Roon Nucleus - I don't think it is any different than if you build NUC with Roon OS / ROCK yourself. I think I remember reading on Roon forums where the Roon guys were saying it's basically NUC in a passive box, just pre-built, for those who just want to buy a Roon Core that is ready to plug and play. I believe the only difference vs. ROCK is they optimized thermal management, so it's slightly different version of the OS, but the Roon guys said there should not be any audible difference.

The Nucleus uses a NUC7 (possibly newer now but last I checked it was 7th gen). The Roon team confirmed to me that there are no hardware mods to the board, just the NUC in a fanless case. The slight difference from the free ROCK install you can put in a NUC is that the Nucleus has Control4 automation enabled - that is it.

 

I run a NUC10i7 with 32gb RAM, 500gb NME SSD (system and Roon db), and 4tb SSD internal storage (music). I have it in my office away from my listening room. One advantage of running a standard NUC is you can set the BIOS to use the CPU's maximal speed - it will result in the fan running at times. This is useful if you're using DSP (eg I upsample and do DSD>PCM in Roon when sending to my Schiit headphone DAC/amp). Setting the NUC to high speed makes it run hotter which will make it throttle down in a fanless case. I believe the Nucleus BIOS is not set to run at max speed.