Music Server Recommendation for Merging NADAC (ravenna ethernet)

[longinc]

Hello,

 

I recently got the Merging NADAC (with external power supply). I set up my Macbook Air (M1) to pipe the bits straight into the NADAC, and not surprising, it sounds so-so since my laptop is not an optimized server/streamer. My CD transport piping into the DAC via Coaxial actually sounds much better. For those who are using a network attached DAC (esp one using Ravenna over ethernet), do you have a music server (off the shelf or DIY) and network topology setup you would point me to that would give me the best SQ. I am hoping to fully realize the benefits of AOIP ethernet over USB.

 

Any help or advice much appreciated. Thank you.  

[Kal Rubinson]

I have no experience with the M1 but I have used the NADAC (and its stablemate, the Anubis) and I am doubtful that your disappointment is due to the M1 itself.  What music program are you using to play to the NADAC and how is it configured?

[longinc]

Hi @Kal Rubinson, I am using Audirvana, and have configured it based on the instructions from Merging: https://confluence.merging.com/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=9338957

 

A possible weak link is the thunderbolt-to-ethernet adapter (Amazon Basics) that I am using. Apparently the Merging folks are recommending this adaptor these days: https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt-avb-adapter/overview.html.

 

Also, when playing DSD on Audirvana sounds weird (high res PCM was much better). I was told that Audivana never quite got for DSD playback right. Any music program that does well for both high res PCM and DSD?

[Kal Rubinson]

14 hours ago, longinc said:

Also, when playing DSD on Audirvana sounds weird (high res PCM was much better). I was told that Audivana never quite got for DSD playback right. Any music program that does well for both high res PCM and DSD?

It has been so long since I've used Audirvana that any comments on it that I might offer would be irrelevant.  I did use Jriver and Roon with the NADAC and did not ever find any significant difference between how they handled PCM compared to DSD.  However, it is hard for me to see how any of these programs would.  If there's a difference, it more likely occurs in the DAC, itself, not what feeds them the bits.

[longinc]

Thanks @Kal Rubinson

[El Guapo]

On 4/29/2022 at 11:24 AM, longinc said:

Hello,

 

I recently got the Merging NADAC (with external power supply). I set up my Macbook Air (M1) to pipe the bits straight into the NADAC, and not surprising, it sounds so-so since my laptop is not an optimized server/streamer. My CD transport piping into the DAC via Coaxial actually sounds much better. For those who are using a network attached DAC (esp one using Ravenna over ethernet), do you have a music server (off the shelf or DIY) and network topology setup you would point me to that would give me the best SQ. I am hoping to fully realize the benefits of AOIP ethernet over USB.

 

Any help or advice much appreciated. Thank you.  

 

First I'd like to suggest to get a better NIC like Sonnettech AVB Thunderbolt Gbe adapter for your MacBook Air. Don't use other brands' USB->RJ45. The AVB is time-sensitive so it's good for Ravenna.

 

Here's my home network topology. Ravenna is my main audio backbone so I configured a Cisco CBS350 (Ravenna certified) for it. HQPe is the multichannel DSP / upsampling engine and Roon is the 2ch~5.1ch music server. If greater than 5.1ch like Atmos 5.1.2 I use another Mac as the player. Mac mini M1 configured as NAA->Ravenna bridge. Ravenna is one of the best AoIP protocol if you treat it correctly. 😁

[longinc]

13 hours ago, El Guapo said:

 

First I'd like to suggest to get a better NIC like Sonnettech AVB Thunderbolt Gbe adapter for your MacBook Air. Don't use other brands' USB->RJ45. The AVB is time-sensitive so it's good for Ravenna.

 

Here's my home network topology. Ravenna is my main audio backbone so I configured a Cisco CBS350 (Ravenna certified) for it. HQPe is the multichannel DSP / upsampling engine and Roon is the 2ch~5.1ch music server. If greater than 5.1ch like Atmos 5.1.2 I use another Mac as the player. Mac mini M1 configured as NAA->Ravenna bridge. Ravenna is one of the best AoIP protocol if you treat it correctly. 😁

Thanks @El Guapo! This is super helpful. I will give the Sonnentech AVB a try. And, I didn't realize the (HQplayer) NAA is available for the MacOS. Which Cat6 cable are you using? Given I have a much simpler setup, does inserting a network switch (like one of the Merging qualified Cisco switches) between the MAC and the NADAC improve sound quality vs directly connecting the mac to the NADAC?

 

Also, can you elaborate on "Ravenna is one of the best AoIP protocol if you treat it correctly." - what is it sensitive to? or rather what are the key elements of getting great sound from Ravenna? For context, i am only do 2 channel stereo.

[El Guapo]

4 hours ago, longinc said:

Which Cat6 cable are you using?

I use these brands mainly: Amphenol, Panduit and Linkomm. If 5e or 6 cables came from the equipments I'll use that, too.

 

4 hours ago, longinc said:

inserting a network switch (like one of the Merging qualified Cisco switches) between the MAC and the NADAC improve sound quality vs directly connecting the mac to the NADAC?

With or without switch has no effect on Ravenna's SQ. I configured a CBS350 simply because I have two computers need to access my Anubis.

 

4 hours ago, longinc said:

what are the key elements of getting great sound from Ravenna?

1. Network interface card: Merging recommends separated NIC with Intel's controller chips. Some considerations you can find it here.

2. Switch: Merging validated some switches for Ravenna, here's the list.

3. Driver software: always update to the most current version. Also follows the optimization guide to optimize your system.

4. Topology: do not mix Ravenna with your home network!

[longinc]

Thanks @El Guapo ! for pointing me in right direction. Very much appreciated! One quick question, what is the difference between Core Audio and the Virtual Audio Device. Are they essentially the same thing? I tried both and seems like they both provide the necessary driver for my Mac to talk to my NADAC.

[El Guapo]

6 hours ago, longinc said:

what is the difference between Core Audio and the Virtual Audio Device.

It's the same thing. But CoreAudio driver for NADAC is for NADAC only (limited to 8ch), VAD is for pro audio interfaces like Anubis, Hapi and Horus (up to 128ch).

[longinc]

Thanks @El Guapo!

[Mantheunknown]

Hi @El Guapo I am in the process of buying a Hapi Mk2.  Your schematic was very welcome.  It confirmed a few items and made me change my thinking on a few others.  You are using only 8 channels, I intend to go for 16 (2 cards).  Any word of caution to share?

I am planning on Asus ProArt MB (Z690) which has a 2.5G LAN port.  It has an Intel chip for that port (the 10G port has Marvel).  Does it meet your criterion of INTEL NIC.  I was going use MIKROTIK but changed to CISCO 350 after I saw your schematic.  Is setting up the HAPI very cumbersome esp for DSD 256 input from HQP?

I am waiting eagerly for Chris' article to give more insight.

You are using Anubis.  I know it is more involved.  Do you recommend Anubis over Hapi.

Cheers

[El Guapo]

36 minutes ago, Mantheunknown said:

Any word of caution to share?

Congrats for your new Hapi Mk2 😃 I’m still saving my money for it (I’m planning to get Hapi Mk2 + 1x DA8P and peering with my Anubis for 12ch).
Just one thing… Ravenna’s driver software is a little bit difficult to deal. My past experience was: VAD on M1 mini had DSD playback issue (solved) and current version of MAD on Win 10 had unknown issue caused no sound but rolled back to previous version could be solved tho.

 

42 minutes ago, Mantheunknown said:

Does it meet your criterion of INTEL NIC.

On board Intel chip I guess it’s I225-V? Previously this chip had compatibility issue (too new) but I think it should be fully supported now. 
 

45 minutes ago, Mantheunknown said:

Is setting up the HAPI very cumbersome esp for DSD 256 input from HQP?

On Windows the HQPlayer Desktop will see it as a normal ASIO audio output. On Mac the HQPlayer Desktop will see it as a normal CoreAudio output. Pretty straight forward. Ravenna on Linux is a bit hassle, need to build the kernel extension and use another computer to run the ANEMAN for audio channel management. But so far it works well with kernel 5.4 (I’m lazy… didn’t try 5.15😅).

 

55 minutes ago, Mantheunknown said:

Do you recommend Anubis over Hapi.

Anubis is designed to be the console. Although Hapi has volume control but somehow it will put far away from you. I suggest to get both and configure the Anubis as the remote controller (use CBS350’s PoE will make your table neat).😁

 

Guapo

[Mantheunknown]

Hi, @El Guaposo how do you use the Anubis now.  8 Channel DXD256 with a volume control?  I thought you had to jump through hoops to get 6 channels.  Tell me how you would configure it with Hapi (one card) as you are suggesting.  My table is never neat.  People have filing system and I have a piling system.

 

I want to avoid LINUX.  Windows 10 would be my choice.  The I225 issue seems to be still around.  I do not understand where this NIC comes in.  The computer will connect to the CISCO, may be on 10G fiber (with convertors) and that will connect to the Hapi/Anubis.

Thanks. Cheers

 

 

[El Guapo]

49 minutes ago, Mantheunknown said:

so how do you use the Anubis now.

Hi @Mantheunknown I configure two main XLR output as L / R, two TRS output as C / LFE, #1 headphone as unbalanced output for Ls / Rs and #2 headphone as unbalanced output for Top L / Top R. The ESS DAC can control the DSD volume within the DAC chip.

 

58 minutes ago, Mantheunknown said:

Tell me how you would configure it with Hapi (one card)

If I get a Hapi with 1x DA8P and peering with Anubis, I'll set ch 1~8 to Hapi's DA8P and then set ch 9~12 to Anubis' XLR / TRS outputs respectively. If you configure a Hapi with 2x DA8P (16ch outputs) and an Anubis as console (source / monitor selection and volume control), the Anubis only need one CAT6 RJ45 cable for data and power from Cisco CBS350. 😁

 

1 hour ago, Mantheunknown said:

The computer will connect to the CISCO, may be on 10G fiber

Connect using SFP / SFP+ should be no problem (CBS350's SFP slots are Gbe only).

[Mantheunknown]

Thank you @El Guapo Where does the Intel NIC come in.  What you have outlined is straightforward and is what I was thinking (w/o Anubis). Going forward I will be seeking your advice and guidance.  This implementation is quite rare.

 

How do you like the sound of DSD 256 through Anubis.  Thanks, Cheers.

[El Guapo]

46 minutes ago, Mantheunknown said:

Where does the Intel NIC come in.

It's from Merging's resource: Merging recommends Intel Gigabit network adapters, especially for ASIO.

 

I brought the on-board I225-V issue up because it was not supported by Ubuntu Server 20.04 stock kernel 5.4. When I build my i9 / z690 host, the 20.04 installer could not recongnize the I225-V, gonna install another Realtek Gbe PCIe NIC to run package update and install the kernel 5.13 then I225-V could be activated then pull the Realtek out. 😅 So far the I225-V working well on Ubuntu Server 22.04 with 5.15 kernel tho. If you're not using Linux you can skip this part.

 

46 minutes ago, Mantheunknown said:

How do you like the sound of DSD 256 through Anubis.

Love it. Especially using ASDM5EC modulator. Friends came to my home and after listening to the basic Atmos 5.1.2 all changed their thinking of Hi-Fi. 

[Mantheunknown]

Hi @El Guapo.  This was suggested to me

https://nl.hardware.info/netwerkadapters.36/intel-gigabit-ct-desktop-pci-express-network-adapter.43453

It is a 1G Intel card.  It is very inexpensive. 

Why do you need an Intona.  Is Denafripps USB implementation not good enough.  Have you compared SINGXER – SU 2 – USB DSD1024 Digital Interface SPDIF AES/EBU I2S HDMI to the INTONA.  You can use the I2S to the Denafripps.  Initially I am not going to use anything on the USB line.  I have a similar Z690 Asus ProArt build on the way.  I am not at all familiar with LINUX/Ubuntu.  Is the sound that much better with Ubuntu than Windows 10 1809.

Thanks. Cheers

[El Guapo]

41 minutes ago, Mantheunknown said:

Is Denafripps USB implementation not good enough.

Denafrips Ares 2 is entry level DAC. It does not have USB isolator like Holo Spring.

 

43 minutes ago, Mantheunknown said:

Have you compared SINGXER – SU 2 – USB DSD1024 Digital Interface SPDIF AES/EBU I2S HDMI to the INTONA.

I don't have Singxer DDC. And since I'm focusing on multichannel system so no plan to get that. 😅

 

46 minutes ago, Mantheunknown said:

Is the sound that much better with Ubuntu than Windows 10 1809.

I didn't compare Linux vs Windows because Windows is not my main OS. I use Windows only when I run Audiolense XO. But in general Roon ROCK (based on Linux) is better than Roon Core (on Win or Mac) IMHO.

[Mantheunknown]

Thanks @El Guapo

Cheers

[longinc]

HI @El Guapo

 

I recently bought the Afterdark clock for NADAC (https://www.adark.co/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-word-clock-x-10m-master-clock-for-merging-nadac). They actually make the clock work at the 625K frequency needed by the NADAC. Clock performance spec wise, it's actually slightly better than the Merging UL clock. It does sound amazing - i must say. Anyways, the issue I am experiencing is as follows: 

 

1. Connecting my Macbook air M1 directly to the nadac via ethernet cable works perfect and sounds great

 

2. Connecting my Macbook air M1 into a network switch (cisco 2960) and from the switch into the NADAC, my laptop is not able to connect with the NADAC , and I am getting the error in my CoreAudio driver "No ptp master or unrecognized domain". Prior to the introduction of the external clock, I was able to get this setup (with the switch) to work.

 

Any thoughts you might have on what is causing this error? I can't imagine the introduction of the external clock is causing this issue since on the NADAC it's showing that the NADAC is syncing with the external Word clock. I wonder whether with an external clock, it is expecting certain changes to my network switch configuration. Tried searching the merging confluence site but can't seem to find an explanation for this error.

 

Also, now when I play DSD files i get this static like ticking sound. HIgh res PCM and DXD are fine though. This didn't happen before. Again, can't imagine it's a clock issue. FYI , I do have both Core Audio and VAD installed on my laptop (the VAD installation is a recent introduction) 

 

Any thoughts or insights you might have?

 

Thank you!

[El Guapo]

3 hours ago, longinc said:

Any thoughts or insights you might have?

Curious what's the driver / version you currently use? Nadac CoreAudio driver or Virtual Audio Device, VAD?

[longinc]

@El Guapo 

 

Core Audio version is 3.2.1 Build 1403 (it was a beta version that Merging sent me because the public version apparently doesn't work with M1 and MacOS Monterey)

 

VAD version is 3.2.1 Build 52061

 

I have both installed on my laptop.

 

Thank you. 

[El Guapo]

28 minutes ago, longinc said:

@El Guapo 

 

Core Audio version is 3.2.1 Build 1403 (it was a beta version that Merging sent me because the public version apparently doesn't work with M1 and MacOS Monterey)

 

VAD version is 3.2.1 Build 52061

 

I have both installed on my laptop.

 

Thank you. 

I’d like to suggest to remove both drivers completely, reboot then reinstall the VAD. Use VAD only and try again?

[longinc]

Thanks @El Guapo. I will give that a shot.