HQPlayer Embedded & Ravenna Issue

[bodiebill]

@The Computer Audiophile

 

Did you succeed getting HQP 4 Embedded to work with Merging Ravenna?

Here it works well with HQP 4 Desktop for Windows, however with the same setup and HQP settings I am getting no sound with HQP 4 Embedded. Maybe I am missing something?

[bodiebill]

28 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I gave up on it for the time being. I'll circle back one of these days. 

 

Thanks. I will report any progress here. I also asked Jussi.

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

I did but using different way (I built the Ravenna kernel module on my i9 server). You can try output PCM first. If sounds coming out then switch to SDM.

 

Thanks! I am running hqplayer-embedded-ravenna-4.32.4-x64avx2 and was assuming Ravenna ALSA is already installed. Or maybe I still need to setup the Ravenna driver (Linux Kernel Module) as per

https://github.com/dewiweb/ALSA-RAVENNA-AES67-Driver

I will experiment a bit more. I cannot find much on the web and understand that Jussi's Ravenna support is limited as this is mostly used by professionals.

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

It has driver pre-installed, no need to install anything there.

 

Did  you check with ANEMAN that your RAVENNA device is set up as master clock and that HQPlayer belongs to the same clock domain? Then establish unicast channel connections between HQPlayer and your DAC.

 

Any errors in ANEMAN?

 

Thanks Jussi. For the lack of a managed switch I have a direct connection (so not on the home network) between the PC (which has 2 NICs) and the Hapi. I can only 'see' the Hapi and use Aneman from Windows, not when I boot into HQPE. So it looks like a catch-22? 

 

[bodiebill]

22 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

When running HQPlayer OS / Ravenna edition you need a switch + another PC or Mac to run ANEMAN to manage the audio route.

 

I understand. But that seems impossible without a managed switch, because of the direct connection between HQPE and the Hapi. And I have been reluctant to buy such a switch as I was told that the direct connection sounds better.

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

You don't need a managed switch or direct connection to use Hapi... I have Hapi on my regular network with everything else on the same network. I do have managed switches, but I haven't made any special configurations for RAVENNA use.

 

Why direct connection?

 

This is some strange myth without any technical basis...

 

Thanks Jussi, the wake up call is appreciated! I attached the Hapi to the modem-router, installed HQPE and Ravenna on GentooPlayer and MAD and Aneman on a NUC with Windows and the latter discovered the Ravenna ALSA driver and the Hapi. There is music!

[bodiebill]

5 minutes ago, Miska said:

Just remember to create unicast streams on ANEMAN when establishing channel connection. This way it won't flood your entire network with multicast audio!

 

Multicast would be useful only if you need to send same streams to multiple Hapi's for example.

 

Yes, Unicast only in my 'simple' setup with just one Merging device.

Though nothing is simple plug and play with Ravenna... Stuff for tweakers indeed.

Glad I have some results before putting my head to rest.

Thanks all for your help!

[bodiebill]

Although the connections exist in Aneman and the music is playing with HQPE, the MAD panel says "MAD is not connected to any device" and in Aneman the ALSA device is shown with a question mark and there is an error "Receiver in Error" (error 132, "indicating that no packet is received (no streamer? improper IGMP rooting?)").

Maybe this is because MAD and Aneman are designed for ASIO, not for ALSA? Also, the ALSA receiver error may not be relevant as I am using ALSA as a sender, not receiver?

 

 

[bodiebill]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’ve been down this road a million times :~)

Does not sound promising :-|

 

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Try clicking on the orange squares, deleting the connection, and re-adding it. 

Yes did that a few times already, especially after switching from Ravenna to AES (with SDTrans384 as source) or spdif (for watching movies etc.) and back.

 

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Or, try playing music. With Linux devices sometimes they appear orange when no music is playing. 

Indeed I noticed that in spite of things that look like errors, playing music does help. This is probably related to what @El Guapo mentions in his post.

 

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The question mark is only an icon. Don’t worry. 

Thanks, good to know.

 

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Make sure the sample rate of all devices is the same. 

Yes I did: same in MAD, Hapi web interface and Aneman S/R zone.

 

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

What is your ASIO host setting, when you expand the MAD driver panel?

See below.

'Rob Pap' (author of PureAsioPlayer and the one who recommended the Hapi) advised I could put the S/R at 44.1 even though I mostly play DSD. The Hapi internally corrects this to DSD/DXD. Rob kindly supports me by answering my many questions and doing remote sessions if needed. He does not have experience though with Ravenna + Linux.  

 

[bodiebill]

25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Don't get too worried I've run into issues a million times because I'm constantly changing things around, trying different configurations, and different products etc. I break things, so you don't have to and if you do, I can help fix them :~)

 

The Master Audio host could get interesting at the default setting. This means that any of the devices can set the sample rate I ran into some strangeness with this, but likely because I have more than one device sending audio to my Anubis and HAPI Mk2 via Ravenna. I'd play something and the sample rate would change, then I'd open my laptop and the rate would change because that wasn't in sync etc... It got strange. 

 

It would be great if you could set the Gentoo player as the ASIO host, but it's on another PC, so you can't.

 

DSD can only be set by the Master ASIO host if it's an application, not the MAD device driver. I'm guessing you'll be fine if it's set by Gentoo but I've only done this by setting HQPlayer as the Master ASIO host or another app. 

 

I ran into an issue where I'd hear little pops once in a while at 352..8 kHz. After trying everything under the sun, I switched from an Intel NIC on my motherboard (should've been perfect) to an add-in PCIe 10Gbps card (I know, not officially supported), and everything works perfect.. 

 

Steep learning curve, nice!

 

You say you set HQP as Master ASIO, but I do not see how I could that here as it does not appear in Aneman. Which makes sense as in my case it is on another PC (on the NUC with GentooPlayer). So far no pops or dropouts with i7-9700K, sinc-M, ASDMEC7v2 and DSD256. It is quite a relief that the Merging DACs go no higher than DSD256 as that saves me from taking part in the battle of the giants for PC optimization :-)

[bodiebill]

44 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

MAD (Merging Audio Device) is not in use on your Mac, because it is not involved in the playback. IOW, the CoreAudio driver is not being used.

Ah that makes sense (substituting Windows for Mac in my case).

 

44 minutes ago, Miska said:

One issue I spot here is that you have ALSA as clock master and Hapi as clock slave.  They correctly share the clock domain though. You should drag Hapi to the top to have "crown". But otherwise looks fine to me.

From the examples I saw I assumed that the ASIO or ALSA should always go in the crown and not the Hapi, but I now realize that it means that the crowned device is the Master in the sense that the other devices follow its S/R. So I reversed it and crowned the Hapi. Which seems to make sense as I am feeding the Hapi with an external WCK signal as follows:

Afterdark Emperor Double Crown (we are getting more royal every day) --> 10 MHz 75 Ohm --> Audio-gd DI-20HE WCK out 50 Ohm --> Hapi WCK in 75 Ohm.

 

The latter does not look ideal but already seems a small step up from Hapi's internal clock.

I am considering either to convert the WCK on the Audio-gd to 75 Ohm or get me a Gustard c2 magical clock cable that is said to be insensitive to the 50/75 Ohm discrepancy. Not that I can explain how this cable works...

 

 

 

[bodiebill]

50 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

I forgot to mention please check the configuration file:

merging_ravenna_daemon.conf

 

you need to configure the frame size at 1fs to match your Hapi’s frame setting (here I use Ravenna’s 64 but if you use AES67 please change to 48):

tic_frame_size_at_1fs=64

and also if you want to put the ALSA on crown position, please also verify this line to the desired sample rate zone:
default_sample_rate=352800

 

I cannot say that I fully understand, but I checked in the Hapi advanced setting and there it says frame size (@1fs) 64. So as you suggested I changed merging_ravenna_daemon.conf to look like

 

interface_name=eth0
web_app_port=9090
tic_frame_size_at_1fs=64
config_pathname=/var/alsa-aes67-driver/butler.config

 

i.e. I changed 192 to 64.

 

I did not add the default sample rate as I now have the Hapi in the crown.

[bodiebill]

9 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It’s a bit confusing, at least to me :~)

 

Also to me. For instance this passage in the Merging link you shared above:

DSD

Many ASIO host do not handle DSD sampling rates, and may even prevent some to start.
Therefore, when Merging Audio Device is set as Master ASIO Host, DSD sampling rates are not accessible.
If you need to run DSD, then please set your ASIO DAW as Master ASIO Host in the Merging Audio Device panel (and press Apply).
Then set the required DSD sampling rate from your ASIO/DAW.

 

I assume similar applies to ALSA. When I set my Hapi as master rather than the ALSA host and set the S/R to 44.1, DSD from HQPE plays well OK. Maybe this just means that the GentooPlayer ASIO host with HQPE does handle DSD S/R's? Upon playing, MAD, Hapi WI and Aneman do show 'DXD/DSD'.

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

My understanding is…

Device on the crown position leads the change of the sample rate of the zone but doesn’t mean the crown must be the master clock (except when Hapi / Horus use the external clock).
 

Master clock (which has a small clock icon) can be anyone of the zone member. For example I have an Anubis and a Hapi, I can put my NAA Mac mini to the crown position and set member Hapi as the master clock. Then every devices in the same zone will follow the Mac mini’s command to change the sample rate while all devices still use the Hapi as master clock to deal the audio data transmission.

 

After playing with the Ravennalised ALSA, MAD and VAD, I personally prefer using VAD (Mac) on crown position. That would kill less brain cells.😆 My $.02

 

Thanks, useful info. In Aneman the Hapi is shown with the clock icon. Just theoretically: how would I be able assign the master clock to the ALSA host?

I will play around with both options (Hapi vs GP/ALSA as Master). When set, so far either works fine. Only when I want to switch the Hapi to spdif for video and back to audio, I have to chgange quite a few settings in MAD, Hapi and Aneman, including removing/adding a S/R zone and deleting/renewing the connections in the latter. Learning by doing...

 

Something else: here the external WCK signal is not accepted by the Hapi when set to spdif. It works well with Ravenna.

 

[bodiebill]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:30 PM, Miska said:

Why direct connection?

 

This is some strange myth without any technical basis...

 

Above I mentioned that DSD256 with Sinc-M and ASDM7ECv2 played flawlessly on the Hapi. However lately I had many clicks and dropouts when doing this with HQPE, and that even with DSD128. So I thought I'd try with HQP Desktop under Windows... Same problem alas. So I wondered what had changed since it worked well... Then I thought I'd try the direct connection again between the PC and the Hapi (only possible with Windows). This solved the problem. Flawless playback again.

SO HQPE (for which I have a license, unlike for Desktop 4) is not yet up to the task.

Any advice to make this work with HQPE -- and hence with an indirect connection, i.e. via a switch or router -- would be appreciated.   

[bodiebill]

23 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

HQPe is definitely up to the task. It’s likely your switch isn’t up to the task. 

 

You are probably right. Any advice for a managed switch that would make this work and costs less than a HQP 4 Desktop license? 🤔

[bodiebill]

In answer to @The Computer Audiophile's question above:

My current network setup is either Zyxel VMG8825-T50 (stock modem router) --> Afterdark SFP --> 15m fiber --> EtherRegen --> CAT8 --> Delock 62619 --> short CAT6 --> Hapi; or alternatively a direct connection into the Afterdark SFP. etc.

Both SFP input and RJ45 output on the EtherRegen are on the A side of that device. The B side is only 100 mbps and Ravenna requires 1GB. 

 

To be honest, I think maybe I should bite the bullet and also buy HQP 4 Desktop for Windows. I see a number a disadvantages with the ALSA version of Ravenna. In order to get it to work I have to add yet another device (a suitable switch) to the chain. Also it requires the use of two computers -- one with Linux, one with Windows (or macOS) -- and so far this latter setup has given me a headache as I continue to have to redo the settings/connections on MAD and Aneman. And then all the red error messages...
Doing everything under Windows just feels better.

 

It is good that Merging has introduced the Linux ALSA driver, however what is the real use if you are required to also run Windows (or macOS) to make it work?

[bodiebill]

17 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Have you tried removing EtherRegen? I see it as most likely source of problems. Especially if you use it's 100 Mbps side.

 

Thanks Jussi. I am already using the ER's A side only. With A-B I cannot even reach the Hapi web interface. But I will try later with the ER replaced by another SFP converter.

17 minutes ago, Miska said:

For example in my case, it is needed just once and then can be left as-is.

 

Alas that was not the case here as I had to often redo the settings without probable cause. I also begin to think that it may not be a good idea to use the Hapi for multiple purposes (Ravenna/HQP, video via spdif, SD Transport via AES) as switching is so cumbersome and often requires restarts.

 

The experimenting continues...

[bodiebill]

6 hours ago, El Guapo said:

It looks like you mixed the Ravenna network with your home network. 🤔 Suggest to configure a dedicated network for Ravenna (build a VLAN or use independent switch).

 

The discussion aside whether a dedicated network is really necessary in a simple setup with only one Merging device and Unicast, would not a direct connection (separate from the home network) be the simplest way to achieve this?

[bodiebill]

10 hours ago, Miska said:

Have you tried removing EtherRegen? I see it as most likely source of problems. Especially if you use it's 100 Mbps side.

 

I replaced the ER respectively the Afterdark SFP module by a MikroTik SFP/RJ45 switch. In both cases there were still dropouts when playing with HQPE and the Hapi on the home network. Also with fiber removed and just a single CAT7 cable there were dropouts. So I do not think my modem-router (alone) is fit for Ravenna.

 

Suppose I would buy a Merging compatible switch (such as the Cisco SB CBS350-8T-E-2G), should configuring and plugging this in the existing modem-router as well as in the Hapi solve the problem? Will the modem-router not remain a bottleneck?

 

Still deliberating between HQPE and HQP Desktop for Windows... I do like the renderer possibility of the HQPE though, so would like to make this work.

[bodiebill]

14 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Do not use switch features of modem/routers, these are almost systematically bad. Instead having a decent unmanaged switch is many times better option. Just connect your modem/router to one port of the switch like everything else.

 

Smart switches like the Cisco in question are fine, only thing to pay attention to is that they really need some effort to configure correctly. So those are not plug-and-play.

 

For HQPlayer NAA and other audio streaming, you should make sure you have 802.3x (Flow Control) and 802.1p/DiffServ (CoS/QoS) enabled. Also 802.3az (EEE, aka Green Ethernet) is useful with it's cable length, transmit power and idle port detection. Earlier, I have posted information about required configurations for HPE and Cisco switches.

 

Merging driver on macOS, Linux and Windows should behave largely the same. So for any differences, I would primarily look for any other possible differences.

 

 

Thanks Jussi. I did make some (slow) progress. Before buying anything else, I thought to try what I have available: I replaced my Zyxel modem-router by an Asus RT-N66U, upgraded its firmware, defined some QoS rules in favor of Ravenna and turned of the firewall. Trying with HQPE ASDM7 the crackles and dropouts are now much more rare. I just played a 10 min track without any. They are not completely absent though.

 

Here

https://merging.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/PUBLICDOC/pages/4817447/Network+Switches+for+RAVENNA+-+AES67

I read

RAVENNA/AES67 network should have its own VLAN and not mixed with other network types

So I could consider making a dedicated VLAN in the Asus router?

 

I am now torn between Linux and Windows. Linux has the benefits of HQPE's renderer function and my already available license (no extra cost). Windows has the benefits of a direct connection between the PC and Hapi (which felt good and played flawlessly when I tried it) and less cumbersome (re-)configuration with MAD and Aneman.

 

Work in progress, just sharing my thoughts.

 

 

[bodiebill]

On 8/20/2022 at 1:58 PM, El Guapo said:

I once used my home network for Ravenna audio. Until one day I copied some DSD albums to my NAS while playing the music and the Ravenna audio streams distorted... really bad. So that's why I decided to get a Cisco CBS350 for Ravenna.😅

 

It was a long day playing around with several routers and switches... However in the dual Linux/Widows setup I cannot get rid of crackles and dropouts even without activity other than audio playback. So I am seriously considering the CBS350 you recommend. My network experience is limited though, and before buying it I would appreciate a summary of how to set this up with HQPE and Ravenna on one PC (Linux) and MAD and Aneman on another (Windows). I assume there will be 2 VLAN's? How would these be used? What would be on which VLAN? Would I use both NIC's on the PC with Ravenna ALSA as I did with Ravenna ASIO under Windows? On which VLAN would I access my music, for instance if I use JRiver as control point and HQPE as renderer?

[bodiebill]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You may be able to just plug the switch in and everything will work without special config. I had it working on my network without any config. I switched to a dedicated switch for 12 channel at 32 bit / 352.8 kHz. 

 

'Plug in' as in plug in my current modem-router?

Do you have one or multiple networks? 

 

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I wouldn’t mess with vlans. 
 

Merging offers config info here - https://merging.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/PUBLICDOC/pages/4817447/Network+Switches+for+RAVENNA+-+AES67

 

Still a bit confusing to me as this is the same article I quoted above which says "RAVENNA/AES67 network should have its own VLAN and not mixed with other network types."

Just trying to understand before ordering the switch.

[bodiebill]

15 hours ago, Miska said:

 

There shouldn't be any need to configure any QoS rules as long as the switch honors 802.1p / DiffServ and assigns traffic correctly into different priority queues. RAVENNA and HQPlayer NAA flag the traffic correctly to indicate type of traffic.

 

With some switches ones needs for enable 802.1p and/or 802.3x, but usually default priority queue assignments are fine.

 

Thanks. I ordered the Cisco switch...

 

15 hours ago, Miska said:

Doing unicast RAVENNA (or HQPlayer NAA) for 8 channels or less, is not particularly heavy on the network. So it should work without too much trouble.

 

Did you use same NIC hardware for direct RAVENNA connection you are using for your home network? Or is there possibility that the NIC / driver is different?

 

When on Windows I had good results using two different NICs on the PC, on different subnets, one on the home network and one dedicated to Hapi.

When on Linux I only use one of the NICs and everything runs on the home network, including Hapi.

My goal is to get the latter setup to play undistorted. Currently there are occasional glitches, dropouts, short electronic screaming sounds, or sometimes playback stops altogether.

 

[bodiebill]

@Miska

Something I do not understand about playing with HQPE into Ravenna...

 

With this setting there is music:

 

but with this setting no sound:

 

Any explanation?

 

I am using the more forgiving settings for testing, but aim to use the EC modulators when things have settled -- if they ever will...