A toast to PGGB, a heady brew of math and magic

[kelvinwsy]

Ran some files through 16fs, 32 bit from 44.1khz base files WAV. 

Played the 16fs files through HQPlayer 4.12 PCM 705.6khz output using a NS5, TPD and a variety of the PCM filters. 

Strange sound quality I am getting. The sound stage is very very sensitive to the filters used. Sort of closing in, on the center and depth seems to be flatter...????

My DAC is a Gustard A22 dual AKM4499 dual transformer Class A output stage machine. I set in to Sharp Roll Off...

Not liking what I am hearing ... but still early days. More testing to do. 

I will continue to try 88.2 and 96khz and even 352khz files to see if my 6700k machine can do the heavy upsampling...

 

After a few tunes, I kinda of switched back to my DSD256 ASDM512EC settings which really give glorius some from my 10700k Hqplayer server. The sound stage, depth, focus and detail of vocals, individual instruments, bass punch, skin effect of drums all snapped back into place. 

 

Well still to early to form any definitive findings, but I know my sonic preferences.

 

Processing time on a 6700k running at 4.2ghz 48gb RAM with a 192gb VDISK Page size is about 20minutes for 5 songs -- Really not too bad. But file size is about 11.2gb for 5 numbers of 44.1khz songs.....

 

Kelvin

[kelvinwsy]

Sorry about typo above... I mean glorius sound...

[kelvinwsy]

Ohhh no wonder it sounded Weird.... It was all over the place I mean the sonic images.. Will try again with no filter and no dither.. 

See settings - My Bad - I was DSP'ing the 16fs file once more. My BAD!!

 

Will test again. 

Kelvin

[kelvinwsy]

Ok i need a -4db on the maximum volume setting on HQplayer as the Gustard is 4.6V RMS output on the XLR balance mode. My Class A amps need this for a mor sensitive volume setting so that I dont blow my Eardrums out from my HP's.

Anyway I will try to minimize this to -3 db if I can.

[kelvinwsy]

l a hHave set None on both 1x and Nx filters as well as zero dither on HQPlayer Control Panel

Gustard A22 set to SLow and Slow PCM settings. Sorry No NOS mode on this DAC.

 

Nice effect is that on a High Spec Overclocked PC, the fans just dont come on. That comes with an advantage that one can use a low powered machine to play back the 16fs files. For 32fs it will be still a high spec machine I guess.

 

The SQ is really nice. I can guess 32fs files would be up there against the DSD upsampled files using say HQPlayer. 

Still testing but was so excited I got up at 5AM this morning to reallt try the 16fs files on my system

Intial Findings:

1. Frequency response quite smooth across the audible range. 

2. I do not hear any audible HF or Ultrasonic nasties.  -

3, I find the presence in voices and instruments to be good. 

4. Even on HF dominated music, the music never gets edgy or hot to the hearing.

5. Sound stage is nice, wide and positioning of vocals and instruments is good.

 

Will be experimenting on more  tracks. Highly recommended for those with capable DAC's (16fs and even 32fs), dont want to invest in a super spec PC to upsample and wishes to go fanless without concern about overheating issues.

 

 

[kelvinwsy]

Continuation of PGGB Testing

Doing one on one with Hqplayer DSDEC7 Modulation 

Will report on Stereo soundscape , Bass , Mids And Highs

 

insider joke on the "fish"

"" As the last dolphin disappear b4 tge destruction of Earth to make way for the Pan Galactic Superhighway... they send their last msg which dumb humans thought were excited bleeps and whistles .. Good Luck and Thanks for all the Fish😂😂

[kelvinwsy]

Natural Transparent Minimal

vs 

Front Row Dense Moderate

I find the default setting Natural Transparent Minimal to be soft on JRiver MC26 on full Memory playback

I prefer Front Row, Dense , Moderate 

 

But on Hqplayer 4.10.3 The choice is the opposite as I find that with the greater transparency of Hqplayer mass strings sound harsh on Front/Dense/Moderate...

 

Strange 

Trying the other combos progressiveky

[kelvinwsy]

I am testing HQPlayer 4.10.3 polysinc-xtr-lp AMSDM7EC512+fs on 44.1khz upsampling compared to :

PGGB

1. Natural Transparent Minimal (Default setting)

2. Front Row Dense Moderate

3. Front Row Transparent  Moderate

4. Natural Moderate Full 

 

My comments are of course relevant to my system and my setup.

 

1. HF Noise Filter affects the HF. = Full setting is a bit 'heavy handed' - makes massed strings in a crescendo sound hard.

2. Transparent presentation setting is my favorite setting - a bit lighter and more airy

3. Matched with Natural Transparency setting makes for nice Sound stage presentation and airy open sound quality

 

Comparison with HQ Player DSD EC modulator proved interesting.

Somehow with all noise shaping and dither switched off in HQPlayer to enable bit perfect straight thru playback, I heard the noisy USB3.0 4TB Drive that I had the music PGGB music files on when listening to quiet orchestra music. 

Switched back to the same song on my SSD earthed and mumetal wrapped on LT3045 external power and the very low level intermittent soft clicking sound was gone. 

 

OK back to the comparision. The Default setting on PGGB is very very good for my listening tastes. My HQPlayer was virtually silent as the cooling fans were just idling away - Almost NO load on HQPlayer. vs DSD EC upsampling which puts a lot of load on the CPU and MOBO.

 

The DSD256 -  AMSDMEC7 512+fs gives a most airy and open sound stage and quality on my system suited to my tastes. But the Default setting for PGGB is so close that I can live with it at anytime. Tomato - ToMATO if you know what I mean.

 

BUT - on my downgraded 6700k HQplayer server with no mods - (All stripped out for my new 10700k server), PGGB just as DSD128 AMSDMEC7 or DSD256 AMSDMEC5 shows up the inadequate Hardware which does not do justice for the quality of the source music.

 

So my recommendation  - get your Hardware up to grade if you want to hear the real transparent wonderful SQ of the PGGB music files. (in any of the settings)

 

Happy Listening

[kelvinwsy]

Just forgot to mention all PGGB files are 705.6 from 44.1 khz CD files Maximum Taps 1024Million, 32 Bit, Adaptive Noise Shaping On - Gain on Auto 

 

[kelvinwsy]

Zaphod, I am still finding USB drives to produce Clicking sounds. Same file 32fs on HDD or SSD on the PC plays perfect. Why is this so?

 

[kelvinwsy]

Oh another finding, most Endpoints cannot handle 32fs files. My SOTM Ultra Neo bit the dust and starting to produce crackling sounds. 

A correction. The USB drive connection is ok. It is the SOTM SM200 Ultra Neo that cannot handle the 32fs files.

 

Thanks again. Sounds Out of this world the Default setting on PGGB files.

[kelvinwsy]

23 hours ago, Miska said:

 

It is pretty easy in a way that there are only few DAC chip architectures. I have measured quite a bunch and continue doing so.

 

 

Certainly...

 

 

I have objective approach, so listening preferences don't affect this.

 

My listening tests seem to indicate Jussi's statements above. I am using the iFi iDSD Micro BL in bit perfect mode as well as the SMSL VMV D1 -(dual ESS9038pro- no MQA) and the Gustard A22 (dual AK4499) in PCM mode - Sorry No NOS mode for both.

Using JRiver MC26 as well as HQPlayer 4.10.3 and 4.11.2 in PCM mode with Nil all in the PCM menu boxes;

 

The 32fs files - 705.6khz sound quite good, but I am sure my 3 DAC's are NOT the correct equipment to hear these files in the best bit perfect mode. 

Zaphod - Any suggestion in this area?

My DACs still produce DSD 256 with EC Modulators with a clearly audible superiority in airiness, HF smoothness and extension, Bass impact and definition and Mid range presence and overall PRAT.

Any ideas anyone?

 

[kelvinwsy]

Yes 0db for Max and Min - But I will try again.

My question(if I understand the exchange between the 2 experts Zaphod and Miska)  is this:

1. Are there recommended DACs which are recommended to play back 32fs and even 64 fs files

And 

2. I have reduced the gain -5db to prevent clipping and this allows me to play 0db max and min under PCM playback mode. (I tried Source and it sounded weird and distorted.)

3. What are the others on this thread doing >> ? I am willing to try any ideas.

 

 

[kelvinwsy]

On checking the official specs of the Gustard A22 - it does not specify 705.6. Only the SMSL VMV D1.

The iFi iDSD sounds great with the 32fs. 

I think I will try 16fs on some similar test tunes and try them out on the Gustard A22. 

 

Report back in a day or so.

 

 

[kelvinwsy]

Sorry about typo - Let me correct myself. 16fs - 705.6

I will try 8fs - 352.6 instead

 

Thanks

[kelvinwsy]

I hear sonic improvements using the max 8192 M setting for number of taps 16fs .. 

[kelvinwsy]

I noticed this too .. having only 48gb RAM limits the taps I get to 170-195

 

[kelvinwsy]

Ohh so my 44.1 khz tracks of say up to slightly over 4minutes is generating the max number of taps already? So i am seeing those numbers 149-170 up to just less than 200M taps?

[kelvinwsy]

Of course .. All observations and comments are totally Dac and system dependent' zmy ears and my tastes as well as my gear are Mine!!

No slight on what PGGB hopes to achieve but online upsampling with especially aphrodising filters is much more to my tastes..

YMMV As usual

[kelvinwsy]

Another personal observation.. Purist audiophiles prefer Native Format and optimize their system to this end!

I can understand that BUT I own more than 25000 CD quality tracks .. a Small collection compared to Others. 

And I want to listen and enjoy each of these 25000 tracks as musically satisfying as possible...

But as many hv commented .. so much music out there has been damaged in the transfer to the digital medium..

So my simple aim is to set up my gear to enjoy as much of my collection as possible.

Listening to many 'flawed 44.1khz' tracks is just not possible without DSP to fix the flaws.

Just my few cenrs worth..

 

[kelvinwsy]

A few questions on PGGB-AP

1. Is 32gb DRAM sufficient to handle 128. bit processing of tracks up to 4min 15 second length 

2. what file size at 128 bit from a 44.1 khz file of a 35 mb size track

3. Without any EQ what is the processing time for a 4 min track to 128bit

4. Is a 11600 k pc with 32 gb 3200 mhz DRAM and 500gb of Samsung 970 SSD running Win11 pro and 10 tb HDD Storage up to the task of 128 bit processing of say 256 gb of 44.1 khz tracks(abt 1380 tracks)

Thx

[kelvinwsy]

WA few questions on PGGB-AP

Continued:::- 

My Dac at present is the Gustard A22 which on I2S thru a Gustard U18 DDC connectedvto my dedicated Hqplayer 11900k PC ( only has 26gb 4400 ghz DRAM)

A22 manual says I2S does 32 bit

So using my Other PC the 11600k with the abv mentioned specs what is the highest taps I can go

And 

Playbk thru HQplayer what shukd be my settings?

Thx for prompt reply

[kelvinwsy]

WA few questions on PGGB-AP

Continued:::- 

Can I go higher than 32 bitbl / 256M taps?

PC Hardware limitations the reason?

[kelvinwsy]

1 hour ago, kelvinwsy said:

WA few questions on PGGB-AP

Continued:::- 

My Dac at present is the Gustard A22 which on I2S thru a Gustard U18 DDC connectedvto my dedicated Hqplayer 11900k PC ( only has 26gb 4400 ghz DRAM)

A22 manual says I2S does 32 bit

So using my Other PC the 11600k with the abv mentioned specs what is the highest taps I can go

And 

Playbk thru HQplayer what shukd be my settings?

Thx for prompt reply

Any further input plse?

[kelvinwsy]

I hv the Buena Vista CD in Wav fornat and Courtesy of this forum here I downloaded the 128bit PGGB file of Pueblo Nuevo 

In straight passthru Mode .. It did sound gloriously rich with more warmth and air. No Filter no noise shaping and fixed 0 max/min volume...

ALSO

Using polysinc gauss long and LNS15 to upsample the 44.1 khz version was also very nice ( 705.6 khz PCM output mode)

 

Then I switched bk to my GO-TO ASDM7EC v2 DSD512 mode which has a very sweet hifreq Tone! This is critical as I listen using the Abys AB1266 phi/cc - great slam but a real detail monster..

ON 1 of my favorite musical flavours (Kpop which has tremendous amount of Hifreq music content) , the AB1266 can be mercillously revealing!!

Pcm705.6 fr 44.1 does not cut it!! The hifreqs were a bit too shrill .. on Kpop 

 

ASDM7ECV2 DSD512 was the sweet spot!

 

Initial tests with the PGGB128 Pueblo Nuevo track gives a v nice rich midrange tone

 

I think the new PBBG AP at 128 bit will be v useful to fill out the Abyss 1266 slightly dry Midrange tone
 

i would love to put thus new version of PGGB AP to test really tough music genres!