Which is the better match for Elac Navis ARB-51 bookshelf speakers - ADI-2-DAC FS, Chord Qutest (with Sbooster BOTW MKII Linear Power Supply + MKII Ultra) or Denafrips Venus.

[Momtazul Arefin]

I have recently purchased Elac Navis ARB-51 bookshelf speakers.

Looking for a compatible DAC that can bring the best out of them.

My current choices are ADI-2-DAC FS, Chord Qutest (with Sbooster BOTW MKII Linear Power Supply + MKII Ultra) or Denafrips Venus.

Now I am looking for suggestions based on real listening experience on how these sounds.

Goal is to find the right balance and synergies between the DAC and the Speaker.

[Rexp]

6 hours ago, Momtazul Arefin said:

I have recently purchased Elac Navis ARB-51 bookshelf speakers.

Looking for a compatible DAC that can bring the best out of them.

My current choices are ADI-2-DAC FS, Chord Qutest (with Sbooster BOTW MKII Linear Power Supply + MKII Ultra) or Denafrips Venus.

Now I am looking for suggestions based on real listening experience on how these sounds.

Goal is to find the right balance and synergies between the DAC and the Speaker.

This guy uses active Elacs:

https://www.soundstagesimplifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews

 

[Natekrs]

Hi Mo,

I have a pair myself. I have them connected to a Denafrips Ares II via XLR.

Its strengths.

- Amazing Vocals

- Amazing Guitar Acoustics

 

Hip Hop and Pop

- Need to bump up the settings up on the speakers and EQ on spotify.

 

[Momtazul Arefin]

On 4/2/2021 at 7:50 AM, Rexp said:

This guy uses active Elacs:

https://www.soundstagesimplifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews

 

Thanks for the link, although I have already gone through it. The person has a more casual configuration utilizing Elac Navis rather for easy setup than getting the best sound out of it.

[Momtazul Arefin]

On 6/29/2021 at 11:20 AM, Natekrs said:

Hi Mo,

I have a pair myself. I have them connected to a Denafrips Ares II via XLR.

Its strengths.

- Amazing Vocals

- Amazing Guitar Acoustics

 

Hip Hop and Pop

- Need to bump up the settings up on the speakers and EQ on spotify.

 

Thanks for your reply, I exactly have the same expectation from the Elac Navis. I am particularly looking forward to its ability to express vocals. I think I am leaning forward to Denafrips Pontus II.

 

As you own the Elac Navis, could you confirm me on the fact that some consider this speaker to be a little shy with recessed high frequency response with more emphasis on a warm sound signature? And hence Chord Qutest to be a better match with its more detailed and somewhat bright representation?

[Natekrs]

Hi Mo,

Im sure any of those DACS will sounds nice. The ELACS are very good speakers and i find you dont need to spend big to get them sounding good. Mine sound great even with the Bluesound Nodes Dac. My Advice is to get a DAC with a Pre Amp functions because it is good to have the volume control. I am streaming from a Bluesound node that is connected to the Denafrips then XLR out into the speakers. It does get a little annoying using the App for volume control. So i am looking at a pre amp to connect but its kind of expensive. If i was going to do it all over again i would be looking into these DACS.

 

I would research these on youtube.

 

1.Burson Composer DAC

2.SMSL M4000 

3.SMSL SU9

 

 

 

Cheers Nathan

[Momtazul Arefin]

21 hours ago, Natekrs said:

The ELACS are very good speakers and i find you dont need to spend big to get them sounding good. Mine sound great even with the Bluesound Nodes Dac. My Advice is to get a DAC with a Pre Amp functions because it is good to have the volume control

Your comments are reassuring, and I can't agree more on the preamp section. Changing volume through app can be frustrating at times. I have some analogue sources, therefore, will need a separate preamp anyway. Thanks for the DAC suggestion, I will look into those.

[Natekrs]

Keep me posted with your Journey ! Love to see photos of the setup.

[Momtazul Arefin]

On 7/6/2021 at 5:41 AM, Natekrs said:

Keep me posted with your Journey ! Love to see photos of the setup.

Thanks mate. Sure I will !

[Momtazul Arefin]

On 7/6/2021 at 5:41 AM, Natekrs said:

Keep me posted with your Journey ! Love to see photos of the setup.

I have finally decided in favor of Denafrips Pontus II. I wish to retain the slightly warm tone of the Navis. Pontus sounds warmish to neutral based on the filter selected and other settings. Most recordings nowadays are just too bright for me. Therefore, the added details of Chord Qutest doesn't seem conducive to my taste anyway.

[Momtazul Arefin]

On 6/29/2021 at 11:20 AM, Natekrs said:

Hi Mo,

I have a pair myself. I have them connected to a Denafrips Ares II via XLR.

Its strengths.

- Amazing Vocals

- Amazing Guitar Acoustics

 

Hip Hop and Pop

- Need to bump up the settings up on the speakers and EQ on spotify.

 

 

Hello,

 

I have my Elac Navis ARB-51 for some time now and I have tested it with music recorded since 1940s!

I did not buy any DAC yet. This was intentional, I wanted to understand its sound to identify suitable DAC.

So far I have tried an inexpensive ESS Sabre DAC, a DAC based on a Cirus Logic Chip and some other generic DACs.

The speaker is warm sounding, but it has its weaknesses. I can understand because I listen to music from all genres from all ages.

 

1. Very deep notes are rounded off, need a subwoofer, bass texture is not great. Increasing back panel setting to +1 makes things boomy but not audibly better.

2. Bass around 100Hz is its strength, strong male vocals sound great.

3. Up to 2K things are fine, but afterwards something is missing. I understand this because some of my older recording have frequency response only up to 7K. Elac makes them sound very dull.

4. 10K and above response is fine.

5. The warm sounding nature is appreciated, but this also results in lack of clarity. On the good side, compressed modern day recordings sound very good, never bright and edgy. The warm nature also suppresses distortion in some tracks.

6. Listening to a any modern day recording with good vocal sounds great on the Navis, but whenever I move to something different like even the well known Star Wars soundtracks it falls behind.

 

Coming back to the point of finding a suitable DAC for the Navis, I think it needs improvements everywhere. After spending some time with it, I rewatched the YouTube reviews by John Darko and Steve Guttenberg and they are just accurate. Elac Navis is a non-fatiguing listeners' speaker, but it has its shortcomings. I understand why Steve marked them 7.5/10 and according to him Denafrips Terminator should provide a huge improvement in sound quality.

 

I have concluded that the Navis requires an overall aggressive signal, something like that from a Chord Dave or the Denafrips Terminator Plus, both are out of my budget right now! If anyone has some other inexpensive alternatives please let me know.

[Natekrs]

Hi, i would suggest a DAC with a pre amp. I feel like my system is lacking with the AeriesII. I was looking at getting a topping pre 90 pre amp to give it a bit more kick.

 

they say the RME is pretty neutral. Also the SMSLM400 is highly talked about. 
 

 

[Momtazul Arefin]

17 hours ago, Natekrs said:

Hi, i would suggest a DAC with a pre amp. I feel like my system is lacking with the AeriesII. I was looking at getting a topping pre 90 pre amp to give it a bit more kick.

 

they say the RME is pretty neutral. Also the SMSLM400 is highly talked about. 
 

 

Yes I am under the same impression that with Ares II the system would be missing something.

 

I am using HQPlayer and controlling it remotely from a smart phone. I calculate Replay Gain by JRiver before I play any track. JRiver uses EBU R128 Loudness measurement which is pretty accurate. HQPlayer can read the Replay Gain set by JRiver and adjust with the final volume so that the volume is changed only once. HQPlayer uses 64-bit floating point processing internally and finally outputs 32-bit integer data to the DAC using ASIO driver. The result is obvious - I don't use any upsampler, nor dithering, still it sounds better than any other PC based software including JRiver. The chain is very neat and transparent therefore I am not willing to break it. I think the volume control in this way is better than most DACs' internal preamp and other moderately expensive preamps. Cable to each speaker is 1 meter only, hence that is not an issue.

 

Now coming to DAC list, the choice is very tricky with the Elac Navis ARB-51

1. A particularly neutral DAC like the RME will be good, but based on reviews, there are more incisive DACs for the price. I hate tone controls and hence RMEs additional features are not very useful to me

2. In some ways your Ares II is a good match. It has a strong presentation in the 2K to 7K range which will compensate the Elac. It is not an incisive DAC, but it has very good separation. I guess it will sound good on the Elac. It is just I wanted something with a little more resolution and my budget is 2K USD.

3. I was pretty much sure with the Chord Qutest, but later identified that its strength is the transients but it will not help me in the 2K~7K range. The high frequency transient response of Elac is fine.

 

Currently my only option is the Denafrips Pontus II DAC. But I am a little skeptic that it may  be too warm and laid back for the Elacs.

[davide256]

Your F

9 hours ago, Momtazul Arefin said:

Yes I am under the same impression that with Ares II the system would be missing something.

 

I am using HQPlayer and controlling it remotely from a smart phone. I calculate Replay Gain by JRiver before I play any track. JRiver uses EBU R128 Loudness measurement which is pretty accurate. HQPlayer can read the Replay Gain set by JRiver and adjust with the final volume so that the volume is changed only once. HQPlayer uses 64-bit floating point processing internally and finally outputs 32-bit integer data to the DAC using ASIO driver. The result is obvious - I don't use any upsampler, nor dithering, still it sounds better than any other PC based software including JRiver. The chain is very neat and transparent therefore I am not willing to break it. I think the volume control in this way is better than most DACs' internal preamp and other moderately expensive preamps. Cable to each speaker is 1 meter only, hence that is not an issue.

 

Now coming to DAC list, the choice is very tricky with the Elac Navis ARB-51

1. A particularly neutral DAC like the RME will be good, but based on reviews, there are more incisive DACs for the price. I hate tone controls and hence RMEs additional features are not very useful to me

2. In some ways your Ares II is a good match. It has a strong presentation in the 2K to 7K range which will compensate the Elac. It is not an incisive DAC, but it has very good separation. I guess it will sound good on the Elac. It is just I wanted something with a little more resolution and my budget is 2K USD.

3. I was pretty much sure with the Chord Qutest, but later identified that its strength is the transients but it will not help me in the 2K~7K range. The high frequency transient response of Elac is fine.

 

Currently my only option is the Denafrips Pontus II DAC. But I am a little skeptic that it may  be too warm and laid back for the Elacs.

Your DAC choice should be largely dictated by the quality of your digital source and your listening preference. I find that a Chord Mojo is far more incisive and correct on transients than an Ares II. However the Ares II because of Denafrips aggressive linear interpolation rolls off high frequency at low sampling rates and blunts typical irritants from source "digititus". The Ares II does have its pluses, a more textured midrange. The two remind me in some ways of the choice of whether to use solid state or tubes for amplification... better transients or better midrange?

While undoubtedly both improve as you go up the line, I suspect the Pontus will be a better choice if you haven't done the full Monty on a tweaked

home server to keep irritants under control.

[Momtazul Arefin]

14 hours ago, davide256 said:

Your DAC choice should be largely dictated by the quality of your digital source and your listening preference. I find that a Chord Mojo is far more incisive and correct on transients than an Ares II. However the Ares II because of Denafrips aggressive linear interpolation rolls off high frequency at low sampling rates and blunts typical irritants from source "digititus". The Ares II does have its pluses, a more textured midrange. The two remind me in some ways of the choice of whether to use solid state or tubes for amplification... better transients or better midrange?

While undoubtedly both improve as you go up the line, I suspect the Pontus will be a better choice if you haven't done the full Monty on a tweaked

home server to keep irritants under control.

I understand exactly what you mean. But what I find, by nature the Elac Navis tends to smooth out everything I play through it. It is not that it doesn't have the necessary high frequency extension or it rolls off quickly. Rather, it lacks micro details on the entire frequency spectrum, especially in the 2KHz~7KHz range. Hence, I am more in fear of ending up with a system that lacks clarity and excitement than one with excessive digital glare.

 

Typical delta-sigma DACs will not help because I find them incisive at the top, at above 10KHz where Elac is a little laid back, but I find that rather pleasing to hear not willing to alter it. Their very lows are not very good, but they can't be fixed without a subwoofer. From 100Hz to 2 KHz Elac is just fine. It is just in the 2KHz~5KHz zone where the Elac is at its worst. This may be largely contributed by the DACs I am testing with. I have tested with a topping DAC which has the typical sizzle at the top and an unexciting midrange that does not help in my case. I have another DAC based on Cirus Logic chipset, which has very good midrange and not the ESS like sizzle at the top, but that does not help either. I need something with a more robust midrange. Hence the R2R DACs.

 

I have heard that the R2R DACs have good midrange with good texture and body. Among delta-sigma DACs, Gustard x26 Pro has robust midrange. Therefore the Pontus II and Gustard x26 Pro are on my shortlist, both are similarly priced and within my budget. But my knowledge is limited to reading reviews and it is very difficult to correctly judge by reviews only. Like I wanted a warm speaker, Elacs are warm, fine, but they lack clarity in 2K~7K range also which no reviewer said! After living with it I understand what is wrong with it. From Elac's site the spec goes as-

Frequency Response: 44Hz – 28kHz
Crossover Frequency: 2.2kHz / 260Hz

This means the tweeter is handling from 2.2KHz~28KHz

No crossover is perfect and when it splits at 2.2KHz, it looses some signal. Besides the tweeter cannot handle from 2.2KHz up to 28KHz. Hence the lack of clarity in the 2KHz~7KHz range. This is just a theory! Anyway I need a DAC with an aggressive detail retrieval capability with a boosted midrange performance. This will somewhat neutralize the speaker frequency response! 

[davide256]

12 hours ago, Momtazul Arefin said:

I understand exactly what you mean. But what I find, by nature the Elac Navis tends to smooth out everything I play through it. It is not that it doesn't have the necessary high frequency extension or it rolls off quickly. Rather, it lacks micro details on the entire frequency spectrum, especially in the 2KHz~7KHz range. Hence, I am more in fear of ending up with a system that lacks clarity and excitement than one with excessive digital glare.

 

Typical delta-sigma DACs will not help because I find them incisive at the top, at above 10KHz where Elac is a little laid back, but I find that rather pleasing to hear not willing to alter it. Their very lows are not very good, but they can't be fixed without a subwoofer. From 100Hz to 2 KHz Elac is just fine. It is just in the 2KHz~5KHz zone where the Elac is at its worst. This may be largely contributed by the DACs I am testing with. I have tested with a topping DAC which has the typical sizzle at the top and an unexciting midrange that does not help in my case. I have another DAC based on Cirus Logic chipset, which has very good midrange and not the ESS like sizzle at the top, but that does not help either. I need something with a more robust midrange. Hence the R2R DACs.

 

I have heard that the R2R DACs have good midrange with good texture and body. Among delta-sigma DACs, Gustard x26 Pro has robust midrange. Therefore the Pontus II and Gustard x26 Pro are on my shortlist, both are similarly priced and within my budget. But my knowledge is limited to reading reviews and it is very difficult to correctly judge by reviews only. Like I wanted a warm speaker, Elacs are warm, fine, but they lack clarity in 2K~7K range also which no reviewer said! After living with it I understand what is wrong with it. From Elac's site the spec goes as-

Frequency Response: 44Hz – 28kHz
Crossover Frequency: 2.2kHz / 260Hz

This means the tweeter is handling from 2.2KHz~28KHz

No crossover is perfect and when it splits at 2.2KHz, it looses some signal. Besides the tweeter cannot handle from 2.2KHz up to 28KHz. Hence the lack of clarity in the 2KHz~7KHz range. This is just a theory! Anyway I need a DAC with an aggressive detail retrieval capability with a boosted midrange performance. This will somewhat neutralize the speaker frequency response! 

Be wary that you may be fixing the wrong problem. it could be the amplifier is not a good choice for the speaker, that the pre section

is stomping on transients...

[Momtazul Arefin]

On 9/3/2021 at 12:16 AM, davide256 said:

Be wary that you may be fixing the wrong problem. it could be the amplifier is not a good choice for the speaker, that the pre section

is stomping on transients...

Elac Navis ARB-51 is an active speaker meaning the amp is built in inside the speaker. I have no choice to tinker with the amp. All I can do is find a suitable DAC.

[Momtazul Arefin]

Happy to inform that after significant break-in the speakers now sound much better even with an inexpensive topping DAC. The sound signature is now much neutral with some more clarity in the midrange. Very hopeful now that the sound will be very appealing with a better DAC. The sound now has more density and alacrity, so much so that I had to enable upsampling in the HQPlayer to make everything warmer and rounder.

 

Currently I am using poly-sinc-mp with sampling rate of 384 KHz and reduced bit depth of 18 bit with NS5 dithering, because although the DAC supports 32-bit natively its effective bit-depth is not more than 18 bit according to ASR (audio “science” review). The resulting signal sounds warm without loosing any detail and adds to the strength of the Elac Navis ARB-51. Based on the current playback chain, I understand the Denafrips line of DAC will be the best match for these speakers.

 

I will save up for some time and buy a Denafrips Venus II in November this year hopefully! I will keep my activities posted here.

[Momtazul Arefin]

I have received my Denafrips Pontus II yesterday. Playing with it since then. It sounds good overall. However, my Yukon XLR cables have not reached me yet. Currently using a top of the line Oyaide RCA cable and Elac Navis ARB - 51 active speakers with no preamp. Volume control is achieved digitally by HQPlayer. I am sharing my experience so far with this setup -

 

1. The DAC defaults to NOS mode, in this mode it is sweet sounding with slightly rolled off treble. The soothingness and musicality with spacious presentation are immediately evident, but technically it becomes a weaker piece than a cheap delta sigma DAC. Some naive music listeners may find it to be not very good sounding and become disappointed! But this mode renders better mid range than any delta sigma DAC I have ever heard. Musically the sound mimics a good analog system without the high frequency roll off. I think a high end analog system do not roll off high frequencies in this way.

 

2. The general consensus over the internet, Pontus sounds best in OS SLOW mode. So, next I moved to that. The overall no digital artifact analog nature remained, but now the focus moved from midrange to high frequencies. This way the DAC sounds technically superior, more like a soothing delta sigma DAC. But I am quite sure anyone will miss the vocal presence and mid range focus of the NOS mode immediately. Ah dilemma! At this point I felt like I love the NOS mode, only if it had little more oomph and treble! I was itching to move to the NOS mode, it is just the lack of wow factor there kept me in the OS SLOW mode. But I believe in the OS SLOW mode the DAC is not anything special. A well implemented delta sigma DAC can touch it, may be the VMV D1SE! BTW I have not heard that.

 

3. One recent reviewer the GoldenSound, proved that no Denafrips DACs are true NOS DACs, rather in NOS mode they use simpler interpolation to upsample from 44.1 KHz to 1.4112 MHz. So I thought why don't I help Pontus II in this regard! So applied HQPlayer upsampling with no dithering, I used the Sinc-Mx filter. The objective is to provide Pontus II an already upsampled highly quality signal in NOS mode so that hopefully the simple linear interpolation upsampling of the NOS mode will be bypassed! I don't know if the process is working or not, because I have no measurement to back it up. But in this way Pontus NOS mode is providing a truly glorified sound! The bass has more heft, the midrange has more body and the high frequency roll-off is not that outrageous as before. I have tried songs from different genres and from different generations, starting from 1940's to present date and all sound great. The older songs have more rigidity, more body and newer songs are free from the digital glare. Truly phenomenal. I would like others to try this approach. Only downside is after being robbed off by my customs department import duties, now I think I need to buy the HQPlayer also. This makes me sad!

 

4. I did not try the OS FAST mode or other HQPlayer filters, these tests along with my Yukon XLR cable, I will share as soon as possible.

[davide256]

On 11/3/2021 at 2:42 AM, Momtazul Arefin said:

I have received my Denafrips Pontus II yesterday. Playing with it since then. It sounds good overall. However, my Yukon XLR cables have not reached me yet. Currently using a top of the line Oyaide RCA cable and Elac Navis ARB - 51 active speakers with no preamp. Volume control is achieved digitally by HQPlayer. I am sharing my experience so far with this setup -

 

1. The DAC defaults to NOS mode, in this mode it is sweet sounding with slightly rolled off treble. The soothingness and musicality with spacious presentation are immediately evident, but technically it becomes a weaker piece than a cheap delta sigma DAC. Some naive music listeners may find it to be not very good sounding and become disappointed! But this mode renders better mid range than any delta sigma DAC I have ever heard. Musically the sound mimics a good analog system without the high frequency roll off. I think a high end analog system do not roll off high frequencies in this way.

 

2. The general consensus over the internet, Pontus sounds best in OS SLOW mode. So, next I moved to that. The overall no digital artifact analog nature remained, but now the focus moved from midrange to high frequencies. This way the DAC sounds technically superior, more like a soothing delta sigma DAC. But I am quite sure anyone will miss the vocal presence and mid range focus of the NOS mode immediately. Ah dilemma! At this point I felt like I love the NOS mode, only if it had little more oomph and treble! I was itching to move to the NOS mode, it is just the lack of wow factor there kept me in the OS SLOW mode. But I believe in the OS SLOW mode the DAC is not anything special. A well implemented delta sigma DAC can touch it, may be the VMV D1SE! BTW I have not heard that.

 

3. One recent reviewer the GoldenSound, proved that no Denafrips DACs are true NOS DACs, rather in NOS mode they use simpler interpolation to upsample from 44.1 KHz to 1.4112 MHz. So I thought why don't I help Pontus II in this regard! So applied HQPlayer upsampling with no dithering, I used the Sinc-Mx filter. The objective is to provide Pontus II an already upsampled highly quality signal in NOS mode so that hopefully the simple linear interpolation upsampling of the NOS mode will be bypassed! I don't know if the process is working or not, because I have no measurement to back it up. But in this way Pontus NOS mode is providing a truly glorified sound! The bass has more heft, the midrange has more body and the high frequency roll-off is not that outrageous as before. I have tried songs from different genres and from different generations, starting from 1940's to present date and all sound great. The older songs have more rigidity, more body and newer songs are free from the digital glare. Truly phenomenal. I would like others to try this approach. Only downside is after being robbed off by my customs department import duties, now I think I need to buy the HQPlayer also. This makes me sad!

 

4. I did not try the OS FAST mode or other HQPlayer filters, these tests along with my Yukon XLR cable, I will share as soon as possible.

Do give PGGB a trial. Its a way to remove processor load from the server  SQ impacts for oversampling with PCM but does require a larger

amount of disk space... my 1TB FLAC library is now a 10TB wav library (uncompressed)

 

[Momtazul Arefin]

17 hours ago, davide256 said:

Do give PGGB a trial. Its a way to remove processor load from the server  SQ impacts for oversampling with PCM but does require a larger

amount of disk space... my 1TB FLAC library is now a 10TB wav library (uncompressed)

 

AFAIK Denafrips DACs buffers all digital inputs and reclocks them internally. The benefit of offline resampling should be very minimal, if any.

[davide256]

39 minutes ago, Momtazul Arefin said:

AFAIK Denafrips DACs buffers all digital inputs and reclocks them internally. The benefit of offline resampling should be very minimal, if any.

Such is not the case. PGGB and the Chord M SCalar both use TAP ranges to reconstruct what was lost, HQPlayer does somewhat the same. You lose quite a lot

of added clarity when  switching  to native mode files feeding an Ares II in OS mode vs feeding it 768/24 PGGB converted files in NOS mode.

[Momtazul Arefin]

As you seem very confident, I'll definitely give it a try. 🙂