ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

[asdf1000]

 

10 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I just personally wouldn't buy Genelec's for music listening. Even though it's a Finnish company too. I've heard and used many of their speakers and it's just not my thing. Amps, DACs and the DSPs they have are not so great either and hard to replace with better ones given that those are active speakers.

 

 

Of course, that's fine.  The point of good measurements (for me) is simply to shortlist what to demo. Nothing more.

 

Once I get to the demo stage, it's completely subjective and personal preference for me.

 

I don't need someone else to tell me something sounds good or bad... when I can simply decide that myself with my own ears.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Miska said:

Good measurements don't mean that the sound would be good. But if something measures really badly it's a good way to reduce amount of gear you need to test by listening.

 

100% agreed 

 

You and I are in way more agreement than disagreement on the entire topic of measurements 😃

 

 

[asdf1000]

15 hours ago, Miska said:

I just personally wouldn't buy Genelec's for music listening. Even though it's a Finnish company too. I've heard and used many of their speakers and it's just not my thing. Amps, DACs and the DSPs they have are not so great either and hard to replace with better ones given that those are active speakers.

 

8 hours ago, Miska said:

From personal experience I know very well for example how these monitors sound like:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/genelec-studio-monitor-1031a-loudspeaker-studio-monitor-1092a-powered-subwoofer-measurements

 

You can also see in Fig.2 the resonance peak I'm talking about. And I know the sound makes patches come off my teeth, so to say...

 

By going into subjective territory can you see the silly path you've taken this discussion 😃

 

The resonant peak of metal dome tweeters outside audible band makes patches come off your teeth.

 

But the metal driver Sennheiser HD800 with known resonance peak inside audible band , which you use for development work you've said, does not bother you at all? 🤔

I can't stand the HD800 for this (again inside audible band where there is a lot of musical energy...).

 

Like a dentist drill ... and this is a metal driver milli meters from the ear !

 

So many people made mods to fix this flaw.

 

You should have left it at this comment yesterday 😃:

15 hours ago, Miska said:

Good measurements don't mean that the sound would be good. But if something measures really badly it's a good way to reduce amount of gear you need to test by listening.

 

Going into subjectives about what we like and dislike is just non-sense. For example, in my opinion Dynaudio's garbage vertical directivity make it sub-optimal for nearfield, compared to well done coaxial (like Genelec 8341A's). For nearfield I'm not interested in hold my head in a vice...

 

But who cares what I think and like? Nobody should. Just listen to what you enjoy. I don't want to read about what others like and don't like subjectively when I can decide with my own ears.

 

Then you have people with conflicts of interests chiming in, people that are paid by manufacturers and write reviews, which just distorts discussions.

 

The coaxial KEF LS50 Meta (metal dome! 😲) that you're interested in getting will make great nearfields 😉

 

 

HD800 measured with state of the art GRAS45BC

 

 

You should have left it at your comment yesterday:

 

 

[asdf1000]

25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Two things. 
 

1. You forgot to say Schiit is sending ASR gear now. 
 

2. perhaps you should’ve taken your own advice long ago. 

 

Any constructive comments ? Something to add value to the discussion ?

 

 

[asdf1000]

50 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

In your mind, everyone should be taking your advice. Your confidence and obfuscation knows no bounds. 

 

What utter non-sense.

 

I shared an example of how silly it is to take things down the subjective route, in a discussion about measurements.

 

It went down the stupid path of 'my speakers are better than yours'. How you could see that as productive discussion, is strange.

 

If you have a constructive comment on this post above, share it. 

 

Otherwise you just look like an upset troll that's had his feelings hurt.

 

 

[asdf1000]

Just now, AudioDoctor said:

 

Wow...

 

Hi Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Kettle...

 

You didn't understand the point of the example then...

 

[asdf1000]

Just now, AudioDoctor said:

 

Are you sure?

 

Yes your reply proved it.

 

 

[asdf1000]

22 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Are you sure?

 

Let me connect the dots for you, to show why 'pot calling kettle black' makes absolutely zero sense.

 

In the very same post that I say:

 

1. "Going into subjectives about what we like and dislike is just non-sense."

 

2. "But who cares what I think and like? Nobody should. Just listen to what you enjoy. I don't want to read about what others like and don't like subjectively when I can decide with my own ears."

 

I also deliberately write:

 

1. "I can't stand the HD800 for this (again inside audible band where there is a lot of musical energy...). Like a dentist drill ... and this is a metal driver milli meters from the ear ! " (with measurement btw)

 

2. "For example, in my opinion Dynaudio's garbage vertical directivity make it sub-optimal for nearfield, compared to well done coaxial (like Genelec 8341A's). For nearfield I'm not interested in hold my head in a vice..." (there's measurement data for this too)

 

These are thoughts I generally keep to myself (deliberately) but people started going down this path of subjective impressions before my post, while I was just talking about objective measurements.

 

The point of these 2 examples is to show how silly and unproductive it is to start sharing these subjective impressions with others and going down the 'my speakers are better than yours' and 'you don't have good speakers/headphones' which is exactly the way the thread started heading before my post.

 

So 'pot calling kettle black' makes no sense.

 

If you think the way the thread was headed was productive with that kind of subjective discussion, well each to their own I guess.

 

[asdf1000]

34 minutes ago, Superdad said:

[Just kidding a bit. I can tell from your posts that you are not painted into any one corner.]

 

😃 correct. I'm still a proud Rendu owner... after all these years there still isn't anything with BOTH the slim form factor and so light that can easily be hidden out of sight AND great and easy OS support...  I mentioned that very early in this thread. Not hidden.

 

I'm also not interested in the sometimes 'circle jerk' nature of some discussions over on that forum, which seems to be happening in this thread too, with the purist subjectivists. I try to ignore that over the ASR forum. Before ASR Forum it was no different for me with the comments under Stereophile reviews on their website. I  enjoy skipping to JA's measurements.

 

I'm just interested in the technical discussion without the emotion but it seems some people have had their feelings hurt and feel the need to chime in with nonsense one liners that add no value to the discussion at hand.

 

Miska has the ability (and while you've mostly stayed out of this thread I think you can too) to have a technical discussion without the emotion. I might disagree with him on some things but because he actually makes good sense in his arguments and generally backs up his points objectively, I agree with him more than I disagree.

 

So I've enjoyed his contributions a lot here.

 

This is what I'm interested in. 

 

If someone isn't interested then that's fine but go browse a different thread. Nobody is forcing anyone to read and reply on this thread. Spare the silly one liners.

 

[asdf1000]

23 minutes ago, Summit said:

We are all different I like subjective impressions of audio. That means that if someone  for example states that KEF LS/LSX 50 sounds better than Genelec 8341A' I know that we don't share the same idea about how good sound should sounds like. That' perfectly fine to like different speakers, but also good to know when other audio gear are debated.  Knowing what a person think about a few key products is fundamental for me to see if we share the same image of high fidelity.

 

Absolutely no problem with any of that of course...  but in a thread about measurements, I would ask the subjectivists that aren't interested in measurements like ASR provide, to go start a different thread to share those impressions somewhere else. Or just go do something else...

 

I started this thread and stated I have no interest in reading about what others hear. Not by Amir, not by JA at Stereophile, not by a/the 'Computer Audiophile'.

 

Have you seen what the thread starter of 'A novel way to massively improve'  thread says and does, if someone comes into that thread talking about objective measurements?

 

So as the thread starter here, I think it's a fair and reasonable thing to ask that these subjective discussion go to a different thread.

 

27 minutes ago, Summit said:

The thing is which gear could suite me and me listning room, because I don't want and can't borrow home every speaker/amp/DAC and test for myself. 

 

I respect that 100%. I just ask that such impressions be discussed in those relevant threads. Not asking for more than that. 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Summit said:

Can't I use measurement as a guide instead? For some gear, if they are correct made and by the same person/equipment. But even then it will tell me only some things I want to know IME/IMO.

 

 

Absolutely, anyone can use measurements however they like. I just don't like the 'circle jerk' mentality that some people feel they need to chime in with, on objective discussions.

 

There are other threads to go read and participate on if this particular discussion doesn't interest you (this isn't directed at you btw - you are obviously a smart and very reasonable person to communicate with).

 

33 minutes ago, Summit said:

Final I agree on the significant difference between inside and far outside audible band, when debating measurement of speakers. 

 

Noice. There was some good discussion with Miska on this earlier in the thread, about the relevance of digital filtering images over 300 kHz ... I would personally like to see some of his measurements showing how this does actually affect distortion measurements within audible band but I do respect that he's probably done these measurements. Still would be nice to see though.

 

Thanks for your respectful and pleasant comments. Much appreciated.

 

 

[asdf1000]

3 minutes ago, ShawnC said:

I thought you started this thread to prove that Amir wasn't a woman. 

 

Yes and I wrote that on page 7 also, so this isn't breaking news...

 

Same post where I said the thread could be closed (as the thread starter).

 

Thanks for chiming in though...

 

 

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, Miska said:

 

It is not silly and unproductive. It is important to try to correlate listening experiences and measurements. Otherwise subjective experiences become just hands-waving.

 

 

Of course it is for this thread.

 

Have you seen what the thread starter of 'A novel way to massively improve'  thread says and does, if someone comes into that thread talking about objective measurements?

 

So as the thread starter here, I think it's a fair and reasonable thing to ask that these subjective discussion go to a different thread. 

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, ShawnC said:

I'm sorry page 1 for me starts with that post.  So I'm missing 6 pages.  I Keep trying to get the first 6 pages but their missing.   

 

No worries, yes Page 1 started with that but I also brought it up again when I asked for the thread to be closed (as the thread starter). 

 

But it wasn't closed by the forum boss and the discussion ended up going in an interesting direction. I guess that's what he wanted?

[asdf1000]

15 minutes ago, Miska said:

What resonance peak where?

 

Below, as shared earlier. Nearly every measurement I've seen of HD800 with state of the art GRAS or B&K machines show the peak...

 

I know Sennheiser provide it - I had HD800 and currently have HD800S myself.

 

All 3rd party measurements I've seen show this peak had been fixed by Sennheiser with HD800S. And that the HD800 has this peak.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Miska said:

Not too much off from the Harman target. If you want to look at it in traditional frequency response way, you need to apply at least apply diffuse field compensation to the response.

 

The red curve is the diffuse field compensated response... the peak is there, as expected.

 

Oratory1990 has the same GRAS measurement rig that Mr. Harman Curve (Dr. Sean Olive) himself has...

 

 

17 minutes ago, Miska said:

In addition the driver is plastic, not metal.

 

Apologies, my error. But the plastic resonates like a mofo in the critical midrange area

 

19 minutes ago, Miska said:

I'm not using my Dynaudio floorstanders as nearfield monitors...

 

And to me, Genelec's sound shit, no matter how they measure. I cannot listen to those. And I've listened too much to those for work...

 

I wasn't referring to your Dynaudios. 

 

But if I say Dynaudio sounds shit and I would never again own those, how is the direction of such a discussion productive?

 

Such comments are clearly not productive and you know this but this is what you kicked off when you commented about not liking Genelecs sound... And you hurt my feelings a little bit !!

 

A bit like Amir hurt some other peoples feelings it seems 😃

 

21 minutes ago, Miska said:

So far I've not seen the resonance in it's measurements. But I'll wait for HiFi-News to do it, since they measure up to 40 kHz while Stereophile stops at 30 kHz.

 

But I will also need to listen to the LS50 Meta before deciding if I'm going to buy it. If it has the ear piercing metal dome sound I won't buy it regardless of how it measures.

 

Noted and fair comments of course.

 

 

[asdf1000]

42 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

OK, I guess there are very few threads and places where people actually try to understand correlation between subjective listening experiences and objective measurements. Which is pretty much all about the work I do...

 

To me, searching those correlation is one of the primary reasons for doing the measurements. If your measurements don't show the differences you are hearing, maybe you are not looking at the right measurements or right place in the measurements. And adjust the measurements accordingly.

 

After 20+ years of doing this, I have a hunch how things work.

 

 

Of course that is an interesting topic and I am happy to start a seperate thread for that.

 

Separate because some key smart people that would contribute to said topic are missing from this thread here because they want nothing to do with the title, "Audio Science Review Forum".

 

So such a discussion would be wasted in this thread here, for that reason.

 

What you are talking about deserves it's own thread without ASR in the title and doesn't even need to mention Amir at all.

 

Sound fair and reasonable?

 

Of course it does.

 

 

[asdf1000]

20 minutes ago, Miska said:

At least for me, not him so much than some other people on his forum. Some of the stuff there is just illogical. Like saying product X is bad based on measurement and product Y is good based on measurements. But then on the other hand saying that nobody's gonna hear any difference anyway. So I kinda don't understand why they make such SINAD ranking and tout so much about it while at the same time they think it doesn't matter. There's a missing logic there.

 

 

All your comments noted. 

 

But regarding the part I quoted here, we've discussed this to death since many pages back. Let's not go there again and again (please!). Hopefully this makes you chuckle but I tried to google Finnish word for please and got this 😄

 

 

20 minutes ago, Miska said:

It is even more conflicting attitude that put me off enough, when they continue telling me that "your measurements don't matter, because nobody can hear the difference" but "our measurements matter a lot, despite nobody can hear the difference".. So ehh?

 

Noted and I agree the discussions there can be unhelpful too. I've said the same numerous times in this thread here, so I'm in agreement with you.

 

20 minutes ago, Miska said:

Sorry if my personal subjective experience hurts your feelings.

 

Ha, I was joking... Somebody else's subjective experience cannot hurt my feelings about a pair of the most accurate monitors on the planet (which I can adjust to taste with EQ...).

 

I must be deaf above 20 kHz but I'm personally fine with that 🙃

 

 

[asdf1000]

16 minutes ago, Miska said:

But from studio monitors I'm mostly inclined towards Adam Audio monitors (oh yeah, I like sound of those ribbon tweeters)... ;)

 

 

I have a pair of speakers with ESS Heil AMTs.

 

Dr Klaus Heinz (founder of Adam, now founder of HEDD Audio) knew Dr. Heil and in this interview with Darko he is sitting next to a pair of Heils I have too (video link below).

 

I love the Heil AMTs too ;-) with DSP correction... DIY project.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[asdf1000]

9 hours ago, semente said:

But the problem in my view is not whether people like or dislike measurements, you seem to be struggling to accept any criticism of ASR or Amir.

 

Have you gone through the various 8C measurements yet to realise they don't all complete the same overall set of measurements?

 

 

 

After you've done that, then come back and go to the start of this thread and look at my comments about Amir (seperate from measurements) and then we can address what you've written here.

 

Hint: your post is once again not accurate

 

If you don't want to that's fine of course... but then I'd have to ask why are you posting here at all?

 

Plenty of other threads for you to peruse:

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/

 

[asdf1000]

15 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Validating opinion with objective facts before posting would be a good start in trying not to mislead. 

 

Spot on.

 

One example that comes to mind is ASR's Denon AVR-X6700H review.

 

Initial unit was sent in by a member of the public to Amir.

 

ASR measurements showed issued. This was transparent for all to see.

 

Amir went in discussions with Denon engineers and Denon acknowledged the issue and made the fix.

 

Amir re-measured and the issues were fixed.

 

No damage done to Denon. In fact quite a lot of people were very happy with Denon's pro-active attitude. They won fans with how they reacted and rectified things.

 

A good example of how competent engineers tackle things.

 

And this is a clear example of ASR's measurements doing good for consumers.

 

Good luck to someone trying to argue against that.

 

With the typical review that is just subjective and you have paid sponsors and paid writers, you can't achieve this kind of thing that benefits the consumer.

 

More people measuring, more measurements, more data points, more verification is great for consumers.

 

 

[asdf1000]

20 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Your example has nothing to do with what you think it does.

 

You're right, this example is not good for consumers.

 

The style of reviews where money is involved is better.

 

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Nobody insinuates more, but has less information that you. Put up or shut up. 

 

I presented many lines of information with an example and you chirp with another one liner... another 'nothing' reply.

 

Share information about how that example is not good for consumers?

 

 

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Paul and I were talking about Oranges and you chimed in with an example about used cars. 

 

Forget about your discussion with Paul for a moment.

 

And now look at the example I shared.

 

And explain to me how Amir's measurements in that example did not benefit the consumer?

 

He found an issue through measurement, Denon acknlowedged and fixed it.

[asdf1000]

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I don't know the full circumstances of the issue and I certainly can't take your word for it and won't read about it over there. 

 

This is pathetic. Evidence that you are a waste of time here.

 

I even showed you the statement from Denon themselves but you conveniently ignore it. Below once again. Denon's word.

 

More clear evidence of disingenuous behaviour by you, for everyone to see.

 

Explain to me, how ASR finding issues with the Vinnie Rossi Ultracapacitor Power Supply did not benefit consumers?

 

His measurements showed that it did not do what it claimed to do. The particular product was pulled from the market very soon after the review. You will again conveniently dismiss this.

 

You should close this thread now, like I asked you on Page 7 where I let you have the last word out of respect.

 

 

 

[asdf1000]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Cherry pick all you want. 

 

 

More 'nothing' chirpy replies. Pathetic.

 

The attempted (but failed for all to see) back-pedalling is comical.

 

You could have avoided this when I asked you respectfully to close the thread on page 7 of this thread.

 

 

 

[asdf1000]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You can copy/paste the same thing over and over, but it doesn't make you right. 

 

Copy/paste is  very useful when replying to people that try to deflect and ignore the examples and questions.

 

Readers and especially newcomers reading your replies should be reminded.

 

I show examples and ask you questions and answer your questions and you back-pedal and try to deflect and ignore answering with really pathetic replies. 

 

People can see this disingenuous behaviour clearly.

 

This particular copy/paste below is important for others to see who actually had good intentions very early on in this thread. When some claims 'crusade'

 

 

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Please move on to ASR and enjoy looking at graphs, ignoring conflicts of interest, and your hidden measurement crusade. 

 

I enjoy discussing various topics with people here too. The people that actually add value to technical discussions. Not just chirp with 'nothing' replies.

 

Or are you saying you're banning me?

 

 

 

[asdf1000]

5 minutes ago, Jud said:

Or I invite you to actually do what you claim to enjoy, i.e., discuss with people who in your estimation "add value."

 

This has been happening in this very thread... With Miska, Pkane, Plissken...

 

So I'm not sure what your point is?

 

Do you have any value to add, on the topic of measurements at ASR? Or not?