Topping D90 great but question future

[OldBigEars]

Wish I could understand what exactly the question is here.  Sounds like the OP is very impressed with the Topping D90 DAC but the final paragraph about DSD is hard to fathom.  Something about DSD software upsampling ending up "the winner"....a highly improbable outcome at the current state of adoption.  Some people like what upsampling does while many others have tried it and clearly do not.

[OldBigEars]

12 hours ago, barrows said:

Hi Andreas.  I looked at the data sheet for the AKM 4499 chip used in  he D-90.  The data sheet has specifications for the chip's performance with different DSD rates, it can clearly be seen that at DSD 256 it performs very well, but that noise noise and distortion actually rise with DSD 512 input.  I have heard Andreas Koch (DSD expert and designer of Playback Designs DAC) discussing different DSD rates, and his point of view is that the "switches" used to convert DSD are not really fast enough to cope perfectly with sample rates as fast as DSD 512, so this may be why the AKM 4499 chip performs better with DSD 256 (the converter tech in the AKM 4499 is a switched resistor converter).

 

See section 8.1.2 of the attached data sheet for details. 

AK4499_Feb2019.pdf 1.7 MB · 3 downloads

 

Barrows,

 

Do you happen to know what's the spec of the fuse in the D90.  I think you've mentioned elsewhere that this DAC reponds well to upgrading with an audiophile grade fuse?

[OldBigEars]

19 hours ago, barrows said:

I am not sure I remember...  I think it was a 250 mA maybe?  Anyway, the fuse is marked.  Topping uses a dirt cheap glass body fuse, even a good quality Littlefuse ceramic body model would likely sound better.  

It is definitely a 5 x 20 mm size, slow blow.

 

I just took a look at the fuse. You're right that it looks like a crappy quality thing.  Very hard to see the spec on it but I *think* it's 250 mA.  Which is a shame 'cause I've got a 3 month old SR Orange I could drop right in - but it's 1A.  I'm no electrician but I imagine that would be a bad idea?

 

Other than that I'm 4 days into testing the D90 vs my Hegel HD25.  Did you experience much break-in change?

[OldBigEars]

1 hour ago, ambre said:

I have asked Topping a few weeks ago about the specs of the Fuse.

 

It is fastblow, 0.2A 5x20mm. 

So not a Slow Blow.

 

Like Barrows I will try at short notice also the attached fuse.

About why or is measurable etc. is and remains on ongoing debate. But I will trust my ears and especially my family If we hear really a difference and/ or improvement. But it is  a very high price😇

 

Thank you for getting the exact spec.  Apos were not especially forthcoming when I asked them.  If I keep the D90 I'll probably add the upgraded fuse. Looking forward to hearing how it works for you.

[OldBigEars]

15 hours ago, Rinaldi said:

I'm looking forward to the result of the comparison between the D90 and the HD25 ...

 

absolutely, should be interesting.  I don’t want to rush to conclusions so I won’t say much now.  Only 6 days in with D90.  I’m a little underwhelmed, frankly, after expectations raised by the rave reviews and the whole ‘measurements’ thing.  All I care about is how it plays music.  I’m entirely neutral about the outcome. If it’s better than my Hegel, wonderful. If not, it goes back.  Note, I use coax on my HD25, via a Schiit Eitr.  And an SR Orange fuse and a decent AQ power cord.  It sounds pretty great, so I’m really not sure what the margin for improvement is. Using the Eitr makes it super easy to switch cables to compare. But many people say that the D90 works best via USB so I’m testing it that way too.  I’m not a fan of upsampled music so I play everything at its native value. Hopefully the D90 will settle down and improve.  If I had to choose today, I think it would be back in its box. 

[OldBigEars]

10 hours ago, barrows said:

As I mentioned, the fuse did make a difference here, and also that i would suggest a ~$1.50  quality, Littlefuse ceramic body fuse would likely be a nice improvement over the el cheapo glass body OE fuse, so no need to necessarily go with an expensive "audiophile" fuse to get an improvement.

 

@Barrows, hate putting the burden on you.  I can only imagine it wouldn't take much to improve on the quality of the standard fuse in the D90.  I took mine out and it's not a premium product.  I tried to read the text scrawled on in - albeit I didn't run around the house to find our magnifying glass, which was lazy - but couldn't figure out the spec on it. The Littlefuse tip looks interesting, although their website is not exactly consumer-friendly.  If I keep my D90, that's a possibility with nothing to lose (once we find out the real, confirmed specs

 

On another topic....power cable.  At about midnight last night I decided to put the original AC cable back, replacing the AudioQuest Blizzard that I normally use with my HD25.  The D90 bass was truly awful - horribly bloated.  Stuck the original cord back in, and voila....so much better. It was hard to stop listening at 1am.

[OldBigEars]

5 hours ago, ambre said:

Hi NewBigEars,

Please try dsd 256 with HqPlayer and you will notice where the Topping 90 is designed for and a next step SQ and hires via usb.
Very best regards,Andreas

 

 

Thanks Andreas - good to hear about future possibilities. I'm not about to invest in HQ Player at this time, but never say never in this hobby.  As mentioned, I've had brief forays into DSD in the past and didn't much like it - either sonically and especially the way it made my MBPro fry.  I use  an ST i5 these days but nevertheless I didn't find the SQ improvements I was supposed to be experiencing enough to torture my computer  Honestly I prefer the sound running 16/44 or 24/96. 

[OldBigEars]

21 hours ago, barrows said:

You already have Roon, it does a good job oversampling to DSD 256.  And it will do it on your ST I5 no problem (Roon oversampling is much more easy on computer power).  Really try DSD 256 input to the D-90 with Roon.  And be sure to run the D-90 in "DAC mode" so that the DSD 256 just goes straight to the conversion stage, I suspect you will have some good results.

 

Yes, HQPlayer is better with the EC modulators, but Roon does quite well with the D-90 at DSD 256.

 

@Barrows - I did try to test DSD last night. Somehow I screwed things up royally with all the setting changes on different pieces of equipment, to the extent that my Roon app went berserk and appeared by 'forget' all my settings, amongst other scary behaviors.  In the end I dug out of the crisis by rebooting everything.  Must have been user-error.  You are an expert on Sonore / ST / Roon systems - as well as D90 - so if you've got some simple instructions as to what needs to be adjusted and the correct settings, I may give it another try.

 

For the time being I'm preferring the coax /schiit eitr feed to the D90, over USB.

[OldBigEars]

@Barrows - thank you.  All working.  Two minutes in and already this sounds much better.

 

I'm excited....and will let you know how it goes.

 

@Mike - you're absolutely right.  This could work....

[OldBigEars]

On 5/14/2020 at 6:52 PM, barrows said:

Please note this is specifically referring to the D-90 in "DAC mode" with DSD 256 input from a Signature Rendu SEoptical, with a Synergistic Orange fuse in the D-90.

 

It is a giant killer.  Not the best I've heard, but very, very good.  It probably needs to be paired with a good preamp to really shine, as the "DAC mode" defeats the volume control, and I do not think the output stage is quite beefy enough (current headroom) to drive amps directly, but at the price, heck, it is a no brainer.

 

There are better DACs, but the ones I know of all cost 10x as much or more...

Quick question about DSD.....when you’re upsampling from PCM to DSD 256 does it matter what quality of file you start with? In other words...any point in 24/96 files as opposed to using 16/44?

[OldBigEars]

6 hours ago, barrows said:

Yes, it matters.  I am assuming the file you start with is legit hi res here, originally recorded at the higher rate.

 

 

It would have to be a generalization of Tidal or Qobuz streaming for me.  I'm not in practice going to be able to make this a case by case assessment - life's too short

 

But as Mike says, much of what I listen to was recorded long before such technologies arrived.

 

[OldBigEars]

Well that’s interesting.....a couple of hours into a fabulous listening session, the music stopped suddenly. 

 

The settings suggested by @Barrows sound fantastic, except I made one tweak: I use the smooth linear filter instead of precise - which blends perfectly with my room, equipment.  Really, the alchemy is special. 

 

But Roon abruptly stopped playing.  A message has popped up saying something like “too many features playing”.  None of my albums will open and play. So I went to the nearby room where I have my router with my STi5 connected. The STi5 was hot. I could touch and hold my hand on it - but it’s hot, rather than warm. 
 

I’ve turned off the STi5 and stopped listening.  Obviously I’m hoping there’s no serious damage to my Sonic Transporter.  I’m assuming there’s a connection between the overheating and the Roon message. I’ll let it cool down and will try again later. 
 

So much for the theory that DSD does not cause an STi5 to overheat.  Any suggestions?
 

 

 

[OldBigEars]

Update -  after cooling down and rebooting the STi5, it restarted and seems to play normally again. 

 

I checked the Roon processing speed on a few albums. It seems to range from 1.5 - 2.0X. This seems low, compared to normal. 
 

I’m going to have to sleep on this.  DVD 256 apparently transforms the D90 but it appears my Sonic Transporter may not have sufficient core capacity to run it safely. 

[OldBigEars]

7 hours ago, barrows said:

If Roon is only running at 1.5 to 2.0 that is not good news.  I would recommend contacting Andrew at SGC and discussing with him.  I am not sure which I-5 the ST is using.  My Mac Mini is also an I-5 machine, and runs Roon oversampling to DSD 256 and 512 with no issues, and Roon shows always running fast 4X or higher.  Roon says that rates below 4x are getting close to borderline, so the problems which you are having are not that surprising, although, I am surprised the ST I5 is not able to run faster, perhaps it just needs a little more cooling?  A computer will throttle its capability if it gets too hot, anyway, Andrew is the man to consult with on this.

 

OK I'll try to reach Andrew.  Another factor is that I also run Convolution filters on Roon.  These are the HAF room correction filters.  I typically use the Crosstalk filter, which I've found to be effective.  I could disable the Crosstalk, or I could try DSD 128.  If Andrews got other ideas, that would be great.

[OldBigEars]

Here's the answer from Andrew at Small Green Computer...

 

The sonicTransporter i5 is designed for DSD 128 max.

 

If you want DSD256 or DSD512 you need a sonicTransporter i9.

 

So that's that.  I'm going to try using @Barrows settings with DSD 128 and will compare with 256.

 

Im finding 128 lifts the processing speed up to around 3.5-4.0X.  In all the experimentation I've also noticed that Tidal 16/44 takes a little less CPU than Qobuz 24/96.  I may well just upsample to DSD 128 from Tidal 16/44 from now on.

[OldBigEars]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

The regular modulators like ASDM7 are not bad either...  And not particularly heavy, with -2s filters and regular modulators one can run DSD256 output even from some Intel Atom models.

 

 

That sounds interesting - would be great if someone could translate that into Roon settings

[OldBigEars]

On 5/14/2020 at 6:52 PM, barrows said:

Please note this is specifically referring to the D-90 in "DAC mode" with DSD 256 input from a Signature Rendu SEoptical, with a Synergistic Orange fuse in the D-90.

 

It is a giant killer.  Not the best I've heard, but very, very good.  It probably needs to be paired with a good preamp to really shine, as the "DAC mode" defeats the volume control, and I do not think the output stage is quite beefy enough (current headroom) to drive amps directly, but at the price, heck, it is a no brainer.

 

There are better DACs, but the ones I know of all cost 10x as much or more...

 

@ Barrows, I'm enjoying using the the D90 in DSD mode - thank you for that recommendation.  It made all the difference.  I'm kind of toggling between 128 and 256.  Yes, I clearly hear superior definition and insight into the music at 256 - but my Sonic Transporter i5 is apparently limited to DSD 128 so I'm a little uneasy about pushing it to 256 for long periods.  Anyway, even at 128 it's good.  

 

You were/are also a huge proponent of the Chord Qutest and at one point made a similar statement on this website about it being as good as anything up to around $7000.  What are you thoughts about D90 vs Qutest?

 

 

[OldBigEars]

@ Barrows, thanks for more insights.  

 

Just to unpack this...I think you're saying that - if you ignore country of origin, brand, design, service issues (not that you should or shouldn't) - then the SQ of the D90 (upsampling native DSD 256) is close enough to the Chord Qutest with standard power supply (upsampling PCM) that you would be hard pressed to confirm a preference, without hearing them back to back.

 

Not meaning to put words in your mouth - just to clarify. I'm thinking about trying a Qutest to do that direct comparison.  Or maybe one of the Denafrips models.

[OldBigEars]

I’m fascinated by the emphasis on the D90’s performance with DSD 256 (specifically).  Wish I understood more clearly what’s behind that.  Yes I can hear a difference vs DSD 128.  It’s definitely got an edge, in terms of clarity and separation.  But the cost in terms of CPU is heavy, which causes me a certain amount of stress that I’m going to overheat my server and cause damage to something. I’m toggling back and forth, trying to decide the best option. 

[OldBigEars]

No disrespect to anyone enjoying their D90's, but after 4 weeks I think I've reached the end of the line with mine.  We've had our good times, and I can see how she would appeal to many.  But I'm not feeling it.

 

Before I pack her up....I'd love to hear any mitigating factors. I've probably put around 120 playing hours on my D90.  Could I expect any further changes in the future? She's definitely mellowed since new, but still has a slightly irritating voice.  I do use the standard USB cord and, of course, the basic fuse. 

 

@Barrows was right about DSD - even 128.  Amazingly wide soundstage and detail.  But I'd question whether it's a pleasing DAC to live with over the long term - there just has to be more refinement out there, without spending silly money. Maybe I'll try an NOS model, such as the Orchid or Troubadour.

[OldBigEars]

3 hours ago, ambre said:

With HqPlayer and Ec filters for Dsd 256 / 512 In combination with a powerful pc / imac will give a dramatic jump with thé Topping 90.

 

A realy Top Dac the same as Barrows said. A bargain.
 

 

 

I've used DSD 256 with Roon quite a lot.  My STi5 ran slightly hot but I could certainly hear an audible difference.  HqP with Ec filters - maybe that was the missing ingredient...?

 

As with all things hifi, system blend is key.  There are aspects about the Topping D90 I appreciate - on the one hand it delivers lots of information, but it's tone of voice through my equipment lacked body and soul.  Hard things to measure.

 

[OldBigEars]

1 hour ago, ambre said:

Roon does’t  equals by far...,,.. HQPlayer4.x imo.
 

Besides the Eq filters there are many other  very nice variants too. Especially in terms of transcients and stage.
 

But you have to replace yr computer first to unlock the REAL potential of Hq player.
 

Besides that I use Allo Usbridge Signature incl. Uptone ISO Regen to clean the signal path and ‘reclock’ the usb signal.

And the Uptone etherRegen which feeds the Allo. That makes anorher lot of differences to my Old ears resp. System.
 

Very best regards,Andreas

 

 

 

I've been seriously thinking about the EtherRegen and/or upgrading my mR 1.4 to oR.  That could probably help.

 

I'm not going to spring for a new computer + HqR license at this point.

 

Thanks for ideas.