Pro cabling for audiophile systems

[Kimo]

Got enough hours on the GAC 2 ultra pro to make some determinations.  Most noticeably, the bass is very strong using this IC.  The soundstage is wide and there are no anomalies regarding tone.  Mid treble still has a little extra bite, but this may disappear with time, or at least lessen.  Treble is not particularly extended, but it is not nearly as boxy as 2549 or others.  Still, this is a thick sounding presentation.

 

I fear that there may be no mic cable that is neutral enough to make for a good recommendation for an IC.  Haven't given up though.  I have some Gotham GAC 2 v1 on order.

[Kimo]

On 2/25/2022 at 1:00 PM, Revelation said:

I had 6 year old Mogami XLR cables I connected from my amp to my preamp. I just purchased AudioQuest Columbia cables and noticed improved clarity and openness by about 8 percent. I don't know all the details on why it sounds this way, but I definitely like the sound better and to me, its an improved sound. One would think once you get to a certain level of less resistance, the really high end cables would make less of a difference. With that being said, I am very happy with these cables and they are staying on my McIntosh amp and NAD preamp

 

Almost all of the pro mic cables that I have tried have been a little gritty and closed in by comparison.  The Audio Envy was not, but that is in a different price range.

 

 

[Kimo]

Well, I have come to the end of the line.  Not surprisingly, I did not find any real giant killers going this route.  Seemed to have the best luck with the digital cables.

 

USB: Oyaide Neo + A series Rev 2.  Marketed toward DJs.

 

AES/EBU: Grimm Audio.  

 

SPDIF: Apogee Wyde Eye

 

XLR: NONE.  The Gotham GAC 2 V1 was probably the best balanced of the bunch, but really wasn't very smooth.  Might need a lot of hours.   I expected these cables to pretty much sound the same, but they actually sounded the most different from one another of any group.

 

Speaker cables:  Gotham SPK.  Belden and ultimately  Mogami just aren't as enjoyable.  

 

RCA: Gotham GAC 1 Ultra pro and Mogami 2497.  

 

For a little more money, I believe that one could better the sonics on most of these analog cables.  Maybe not the durability or shielding, but certainly the sound.  I kept the Oyaide as a back up, and Gotham GAC 1 and 2 on my phono stage, but that was it.    That said, these three cables cost me under 150.00, so that is not too bad.

[Kimo]

On 5/5/2022 at 11:14 AM, nilecniv said:

Thanks for your diligence, @Kimo. 

 

Your varied XLR impressions are very interesting. I've been trying to decide between the Belden 1800F or Belden BAV XLR. Would you say that between these two choices, would the BAV XLR be worth the added cost?

 

My dac/preamp has an output impedance of 300, which is sort of moderate.  It might be contributing to the differences in mic cables being a bit exaggerated, at least according to what I have read on other forums.

 

I would go with the 1800F in my system.  I have tried the BAV and liked it in some ways, but I found it had the star quad thing going on.  A little dull/closed in feeling.  Every 110 ohm cable that I have tried has sounded a more open than every star quad, with the possible exception of the GAC 4/1 ultra pro, which gets closer.

[Kimo]

Please post your impressions.  

 

It just seems like the AES cables (1800) always have a very open sound compared with analog and especially star quad, when the AES cable is used for analog.  I tried to find a specific reason for this online, but had no luck, and got tired of reading Gear space posts.

[Kimo]

7 hours ago, nilecniv said:

 

Will report back, once I swap the BAV XLRs. 

 

Interesting findings regarding the digital AES cables, like 1800F. What dac/preamp and amp are you using them with?

 

My BAV XLR will sit in between a Condesa Carmen DJ mixer/preamp (discrete class A) and First Watt J2.

 

DAC/Preamp is by a small German company named Linnenberg.  Appears to be making only home audio product now, but has pro background.

 

Being incredibly inconsistent, as usual, I just ordered up another star quad.  Sommer's top of the line.  I have read they use Teflon insulation.  Not much of that on the pro scene.  

[Kimo]

It has been awhile, but I think I finally have come to the end of this cable rolling craziness.

 

The most important thing that I learned is that insulation matters.  Foamed PE is found in many on the more expensive models and provides for a smoother, more open, cleaner sound in general with cables sounding quite a bit alike.  Teflon and Polypropylene are a bit more rare but provide equal if not greater performance.  Most of my final recommendations end up reflecting this.

 

 

 

AES/EBU: Grimm TPR. I didn't get to do too much testing here, but thought the Grimm sounded good. 

 

SPDIF: Apogee Wyde Eye.  No strong preferences between most SPDIF cables.  The Apogee wins out on a little extra ease and smoothness, perhaps.  Once upon a time, it only cost 25.00 per meter, so there is that.  The Belden is the only one that seemed to sound a little strident at times.

 

XLR: This one was a real struggle.  Perhaps the 600 ohm output impedance of the DAC/preamp exacerbated differences.  That said, when I did start auditioning cables made with better materials results became more consistent and much better. 

 

In order of preference here is the final tally.

Sommer Epilogue.  Probably the most neutral of the bunch, so it gets the nod.

Gotham GAC 4 Ultra pro.  Not quite as open a the GAC 2 UP, but a little more extended on top.

Gotham GAC 2 Ultra pro.  Probably a little colored with strong bass.

Mogami 3173.  Some will find it a little harsh

Grimm TPR.  Silver plating might add a little coloration by comparison with the rest that will be noticeable to some listeners.

 

The key here is to go for a twisted pair or the right star quad made with decent copper and at minimum foamed PE insulation.  Many audiophile cables don't go with this design.

 

SPEAKER CABLE:  Not a lot of choices.  I would recommend looking at Oyaide or Supra instead.  The Gotham SPK is warm, extended, and cheap.  The Mogami 3103 is okay, but some will find it dull.  Belden was not as good as either.

 

RCA: Gotham GAC 1 Ultra Pro, Apogee Wyde Eye, Mogami 2497.  The Sommer is probably more neutral than all of them, but I only have auditioned the XLR.  For phono cable to be used with magnetic cartridges the BJC/Belden LC 1 is an easy pick.

 

USB: The Belkin Gold is certified and sounds great.  There are differences with other more expensive cables, but I am not sure that those differences are actually improvements over the Belkin.   

 

I feel pretty good about these recommendations and am using a number of these cables with end components. There is excellent performance available in pro audio cables, but materials matter.

 

Now, much like half of American work force over the last several years, I quit.

[Kimo]

19 hours ago, nilecniv said:

Thanks for this, @Kimo

 

I think I want to give the Gotham GAC-4 UP or GAC-2 UP a shot. 

 

Which do you think would be better suited for vinyl?

 

I would say GAC 2 UP.  I have it on my phono preamp.

 

GAC 4 is very neutral, but it has a problem.  Easily heard on Grant Green's "Street of Dreams."  The guitar is stripped of its character just a bit.  

 

Damn star quad always seems to rob the signal somewhere, just a bit.  Once heard, well, you know.

[Kimo]

7 minutes ago, nilecniv said:

 Thanks for the input!

 

Have you ever been curious to try Belden 8402? Some folks rave about it

 

I have.  Tinned copper seems to be a favorite of some.  Also, there is an old Stereophile article discussing its measurable benefit with respect to Supra speaker cables.

 

I have been delving into Japanese cables, recently.  Belden seems to be a favorite there.  Apparently, 8412 sounds similar, at least according to Cheaptubeaudio blog.

 

 

[Kimo]

6 hours ago, nilecniv said:

 

One more question... did you use the GAC-2 UP model 10561 or 10666 (AES)? Thanks

There is only one version of GAC 2 UP, used for both analog and digital.  You can, however, get it in different colors.  

 

Now, I have been told by some studio guys that some companies started pushing AES cable for everything in the nineties, and some engineers noted their mixes started sounding a little too smooth.  Lots of somes.  Anyway, the feeling among some is that there is a little extra on offer when 110 cable is used for analog purposes.  Certainly, the standard GAC AES cable has some nice energy at the top of the spectrum, but I have not noticed the same with the UP.

[Kimo]

On 10/3/2022 at 12:13 AM, jparvio said:

Not to mention that tinned copper was once widely and cheaply available. Early Supra Ply speaker cable looked very much like the 1980´s telephone line-related tinned copper cables; my father used to work for telephone company back in the Day and noticed the similarity and showed me. I was using Supra Ply. I cannot recall if I really compared the two.  

 

Were they DNA basically the same? I don't know, don't really care. By comparison to some competition Supra was less extended on top, fatter and less detailed overall.  I've since heard more than decent sound from setups using Supra cables, so they cannot be all that bad ;)     

 

 

 

I have some Belden 9497 on order to compare with Supra XL Annorum, a distinctly more proper design according to the science.  The Annorum is the same cable used in my speakers, so seemed a natural fit.  

 

The Annorum is a little on the warmish side like many, but certainly not all, Supra cables.  They are like a Swedish Oyaide, or the other way around.    

[Kimo]

I am playing in the Belden 9497, and I must say that right out of the bag it sounded particularly crummy.  Seems to be getting better, however.

 

Have to give it a little time, before making any proper evaluation.  It is as cheap as the Gotham, which has been my pro/budget favorite, so may make for a nice alternative.  

 

So far, by comparison, the Supra sounds a little hi fi.  

[Kimo]

On 10/12/2022 at 5:36 PM, Speedskater said:

Belden 9497 is a 16AWG  Unshielded  Twisted Pair (UTP). Rather small for long speaker cable runs or to low impedance loudspeaker.

 

The problem with the 9497 has not been the bass.  The problem that won't seem to go a way is the lack of detail.  Donald Fagen's recordings shouldn't sound this close to classic Blue Notes.

 

I suspect the cheap PVC insulation is partly to blame, at least.

[Kimo]

Made with foamed PE dielectric.  Great for digital or analog. I have Apogee Wyde, Gotham GAC 1 Ultrapro, and Belden LC-1 around here, and all use a similar insulation.

 

Starting to think the insulation may have more to do with the sound than the copper.

[Kimo]

There is a new contender in XLR and AES cabling called Ghost.  Brought to us by a working mastering engineer.  There are a couple of threads at Gearspace discussing it.  Looks like it betters the Grimm in terms of neutrality.

 

Going to order some in to report.  I removed the Gotham GAC 2 ultrapro.  Just a little too colored.   Replaced it with the Oyaide twisted pair, which is also far from neutral with its warm, but pleasant presentation. 

 

An informal poll of mastering engineers at Gearspace showed Grimm TPR and Belden 1800 to be favorites.    

[Kimo]

Well, the Ghost are installed and really much better than anything else that I have heard from any non-audiophile company.  Less colored than anything that I have heard from any other cable maker, with a fast and transparent mid band that can surprise at times.  This is a pretty tweaked out wire using rather basic materials that is just fantastic.  

 

Revisions are in order.

 

AES/EBU: Grimm TPR. I didn't get to do too much testing here, but thought the Grimm sounded good.  Ghost also makes a dedicated AES cable, but my capacity to test is gone.

 

SPDIF: Canare LV-61S.  Apogee is getting harder to find being out of production for some time now, but as I understand it the Wyde Eye was really just rebadged Canare.  I have compared, and I guess it is true.  Sound was very close.  So the easily available Canare is now the recommendation for frankly very little cash.

 

XLR: Ghost Cable.  Nothing really coming close, except for the Grimm TPR.

 

SPEAKER CABLE:  Not a lot of choices.  I would recommend looking at Oyaide or Supra instead.  The Gotham SPK is warm, extended, and cheap.  The Mogami 3103 is okay, but some will find it dull.  Belden was not as good as either.

 

RCA: Gotham GAC 1 Ultra Pro, Canare LV-61S, Mogami 2497.  BJC/Belden LC 1 is just too muddy.

 

USB: The Belkin Gold is certified and sounds great.  There are differences with other more expensive cables, but I am not sure that those differences are actually improvements.   

 

Ghost XLR and Canare LV-61S SPDIF are easy recommendations and part of my system.  I am going to give Ghost a try as an RCA, as well.