HQPlayer4 EC modulator tips and techniques

[Miska]

1 hour ago, dminches said:

Now that I have gotten my new build to work with ASDM7EC -> 48k / 256DSD I now need to take a step back and understand what all these modulators and filters are/do.  Is there a guide to them or are people just doing trial and error to see what sounds best?

 

For filters there's some rough guidance in the manual. Filter choice depends primarily on content (mostly genre) and personal preferences. Personal preferences in a way that different people are especially sensitive to different aspects of the sound. When source material is something like RedBook, which is very tight package, there's no one size fits all filter. In addition, apodizing filters give fairly consistent results regardless of what kind of digital filters were used at the production side. While non-apodizing filters let the production side digital filter characteristics through and thus results depend more on what was used at the production side. Modern ADCs and many software rate converters leave quite a bit of aliasing band at the highest audio frequencies, which is cleaned up by apodizing filters at playback side (and at the same time allow modifying/replacing "ringing" behavior of the filter used at the production side).

 

Choice of modulator is more technical, although there are many different technical aspects which are audible. If a DAC doesn't have very advanced analog filter in the output, fifth order modulator gives more relaxed noise profile by trading some SNR for that. Typical ESS Sabre DAC being example of such. Seventh order modulators provide improved SNR/performance, but the the noise profile is also more aggressive. These things matter more at lower DSD rates (DSD64 and DSD128) than at higher rates where the noise is anyway further up. Usually using either one doesn't cause problems anyway. EC ones are evolution of the earlier ones improving already very good performance significantly.

 

Regarding SNR, what I've measured at DSD256+ speeds, using either fifth or seventh order modulator doesn't really change SNR of the DAC output at audio frequencies because both have already noise floor so far below analog noise floor of the DAC.

 

[Miska]

8 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

It stayed below 80 °C for round about 1 hour. Than I changed filter. poly-sinc-xtr-mp is not my favorite. HQplayer is working in my passive cooling System with a case fan (140mm).

 

These are temps of i7-8086K using quiet fans on Noctua's small 3U case compatible active cooler, running HQPlayer Embedded poly-sinc-ext2 + ASDM7EC to DSD256:

Package id 0:  +64.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 0:        +64.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 1:        +44.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 2:        +64.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 3:        +45.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 4:        +46.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 5:        +45.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
 

Cores 0 and 2 running modulators here. poly-sinc-ext2 doesn't really cause much CPU load. Difference being that with ext2 CPU load increases when source rate increases, while with single stage xtr CPU load decreases when source rate increases (vice versa for -2s).

 

[Miska]

5 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

Is HQP OS working for you on that machine?

 

Yes it is, playing Tidal at the moment using UPnP (mconnect Player). I have only tested the latest 4.11.2 release on it because the machine doesn't normally have monitor or keyboard to select boot device.

 

[Miska]

Sorry, not with ASDM7EC to DSD256 not, but otherwise yes...

[Miska]

6 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Ah, that's consistent with Outlaw then. I think @k6davis also had issues with latest HQP OS?

 

But Ubuntu Server  + HQPe works ok for both of them.

 

It's not about HQPlayer OS, it's about the HQPlayer build. The Ubuntu build is entirely different from the HQPlayer OS, Debian or Fedora builds...

 

[Miska]

3 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Noted. Do you normally recommend Ubuntu Server over Debian Server, for running HQPe?

 

Some more optimizations with Ubuntu Server?

 

Doesn't make much difference from that point. Other than that I don't have a custom kernel build for Debian 10 yet.

 

But the HQPlayer build makes more difference, if you use Debian 10 you can likely interchangeably use stretch package on Ubuntu and bionic package on Debian. I have not tested but you can easily try out.

 

If you don't want to play with custom kernels and want very latest kernel, Fedora Minimal is good. If you are otherwise OK with the Fedora package build (not same as the Ubuntu one).

 

[Miska]

25 minutes ago, craighartley said:

And how does using T&A DAC8 DSD affect choice between ASDM5EC and ASDM7EC from a technical point of view? I’m mainly using high res files. 

 

It works fine with either one. My recommendation is to use ASDM7EC and set the analog filter in DAC8DSD to "clean" (instead of "wide").

 

[Miska]

OK, I have a solution...

 

I have updated the image and now on my i7-8086K it works perfectly fine with Tidal source and poly-sinc-xtr + ASDM7EC to DSD256.

 

Please redownload!

[Miska]

5 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

@Miska with latest HQPe update, what is your average CPU running speed now with your i7-8086K? ext2 + ASDM7EC + DSD256

 

Has this dropped a bit? A bit closer to 4.0 GHz running speed now with latest update?

 

With xtr it is about 4.4 GHz right now on all cores... (somewhere between 4.3 and 4.4)

 

[Miska]

3 hours ago, craighartley said:

Thanks. And is this at all related to whether ‘wide’ is chosen in DSD Settings in HQP?

 

No, that is totally unrelated...

 

[Miska]

Here's a not-so-fancy screenshot of the new HQPlayer OS image playing Tidal with poly-sinc-xtr-lp + ASDM7EC to DSD256, on i7-8086K:

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Outlaw said:

Is there any way to measure cpu temp when using HQPlayer OS ?

 

For example "cat /sys/devices/platform/coretemp.0/hwmon/hwmon0/temp1_input" to see temperature of first core. Divide it by 1000 to get value is Celsius.

 

Or "cat /sys/devices/virtual/thermal/thermal_zone0/temp" for the package temperature.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, dminches said:

Which poly-sinc-xtr?  LP or MP or?

 

Load-wise LP and MP versions are the same, just different numbers, but otherwise the same.

 

[Miska]

5 minutes ago, Outlaw said:

Do I just type that into start up screen when HQPlayer  loads ?

 

After you login as "root"...

[Miska]

Load with i7-8086K and Ubuntu Server, from Roon (on Mac Mini) to DSD256 with poly-sinc-ext2 + ASDM7EC:

 

And temps after almost three hours of playback:

Package id 0:  +62.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 0:        +62.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 1:        +45.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 2:        +47.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 3:        +62.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 4:        +45.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 5:        +48.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
 

[Miska]

16 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Can your i7-8086K machine not handle Roon Server on same machine, with that config?

 

Is there a reason you need the Mac Mini for Roon Core?

 

It can probably handle Roon, but I can have only one Roon instance while I have about 10 HQPlayer servers around.

 

But OTOH, even if the machine can handle Roon Server, I cannot handle Roon's dependencies. In addition, now with HQPlayer OS the memory footprint of entire OS and HQPlayer is around 300 MB and with Ubuntu Server around 600 MB. I don't want to bloat this any further.

 

If I would put Roon Server there, then I would need something else to control Roon. Now I have Roon running on the old Mac Mini and I control it from there. And I don't really use Roon that much. I end up using mconnect Player more for playing Tidal, and local content is played by HQPlayer directly.

 

So overall I don't see any advantage of having Roon on the same machine(s), only disadvantages.

 

[Miska]

4 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Fair point.

 

Hasn’t that old Mac Mini stopped receiving Apple Security updates?

 

I guess you’ll be upgrading it soon-ish?

 

I think it is 2011 model and macOS is offering Mojave update, but I'm is still sticking at High Sierra until next macOS release (it is my -1 machine). Also MacBook Air of same age still got Mojave, after quite a bit of delay though.

 

Since new Mac Mini's have the USB problem, I'm planning to replace the old Mini + monitor combo with my current development machine which is (IIRC) 2012 27" iMac. And then I'll get a new iMac for development (which doesn't have the security chip causing USB problems).

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Outlaw said:

Getting no such file or directory

 

OK, depends on hardware and BIOS

[Miska]

2 hours ago, luisma said:

ssh doesn't seem to be enabled nor installed, probably by design to create a minimum footprint and efficient OS

 

No ssh, one reason being slim and another being security. ssh access with default password for root access would be bad idea...

 

[Miska]

4 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

mConnect Player, Bubble UPnP, Audirvana.

 

All do Tidal and Qobuz, to HQP Embedded & HQP OS UPnP input.

 

Did Roon also support Qobuz these days? Sorry, I'm a bit outdated on that front because Qobuz is not available in Finland. So I have never tried it myself.

 

[Miska]

4 hours ago, ddetaey said:

What is than the technical explanation for that? Am I just listening to noise, which makes for a more 'enjoyable' (not necesarilly correct) soundstage?

 

And how as a non-technical user, can we know for sure about this.  E.g. T+A is recommending 'Wide' choice for everything equal or above DSD128 , if one's amplifier supports it. 

 

Likely it has more to do with analog filter phase response. Noise is noise, if you hear it you hear hiss (with HQPlayer).

 

You can as well follow the T+A recommendation. My recommendation is based purely on evaluation and balancing of objective figures. If your amplifiers don't have much high frequency IM challenges and if your loudspeakers don't become short-circuit at high frequencies (Apogee full band ribbons and some electrostatic speakers), you are fine with any combination and can select what sounds best to you.

 

Roughly, amount of noise in the output is same when you use fifth order modulator + wide analog filter, or seventh order modulator + clean analog filter. This is also similar with AKM DAC chips filter selection between 50 kHz and 150 kHz. With RME ADI-2 Pro I'm using ASDM7(EC) and 150 kHz setting to Schiit Jotunheim + Sennheiser HD800. While on DAC8 DSD I have analog filter set to clean. So I'm not always following my own recommendations (again, my ears vs my measurement gear).

 

Anyway, given above, it is easy to switch between the two analog filters and compare. If you don't notice difference, select clean or 50 kHz, if you hear positive difference and don't have technical concerns select the one that sounds better.

 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, richard kimber said:

Hi: thanks for your response. I've seen an implication somewhere that the new licence covers both Windows and Linux, is this correct?

 

v3 license is split into two, one that covers Windows versions and another that covers macOS and LInux. v4 license is not related to the OS you use, same license applies to all three platforms.

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, dminches said:

For several weeks I have been able to convert everything to DSD256 using the "new" ASDM7EC.  Now I am getting stuttering.  I have gone down to DSD128 for now.  I added an RTX 2080 Super but that doesn't change things.

 

I have been running 4.1.0.1.  Maybe I should try 4.1.1.

 

Would be good to try latest version...

 

Do you have CUDA becoming active? IOW, when you start playback, look at HQPlayer status bar and see if it says "Offload: resampler=enabled".

 

[Miska]

30 minutes ago, dminches said:

I upgraded to 4.1.1.  Resample = disabled.  The CUDA off-load box is filled.

 

It needs to be checked to offload both filters and convolution. If it's grayed, only convolution is offload.

 

If it doesn't become enabled, please check that you have latest Nvidia drivers installed:

https://www.geforce.com/drivers

 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, Xoverman said:

Thanks, I turned Hyper threading off. So why do we need 8GHz and can’t use 2x 4GHz ?

 

Is it because the Modulators can’t be split in 2 tasks ?

 

With Multicore enabled (checked) EC modulators are already split into some separate tasks, but it is not feasible to split it much more. There are diminishing returns because overhead increases...