SACD Hi-RES DIGITAL RIP qeustions

[OpusOne]

Hi everyone,

This is my very first post in the forum.

 

I have been gathering information and setting up a process to rip my SACD collections digitally. So far the possible setups that I have played with are as follows;

Source - Sony PS3 or Oppo 980H via HDMI out

HDMI Audio Extractor - Atlona HD577 via spdif optical out

Recording Equipment - Macbook Pro via optical in

Software - Audacity (which is free)

 

I have been successful in actually recording in low resolution (44.1kHz/24bit and 48kHz/24bit) and producing AIFF files with the above setup but ran into limitations of the hardware. The main problem that I am facing is Macbook Pro spdif optical digital input only support 44.1kHz/48kHz/96kHz; whereas both Oppo and PS3 converts the DSD data on the SACD layer to LPCM datastream in 88.2kHz/24bit, and PS3 can actually go even higher to 176.4kHz/24bit. I have confirmed the output capability of those 2 players with my Denon receiver that is cabable of displaying the format of the incoming LPCM.

If I feed 88.2kHz/24bit LPCM via spdif optical digital in to the Macbook Pro, Macbook actually selects 48kHz as the sampling rate (verified by observing the Midi setup application), and Audacity actually end up recording a bunch of junk because of the mismatch of sampling rates.

 

So what are the possible solutions?

1) Find a hack to add 88.2kHz sampling support to the Macbook Pro Optical in driver (not sure if this is even possible),

2) Find a way to upsample the 88.2kHz/24bit LPCM output from the PS3/Oppo to 96kHz/24bit before feeding it to the Macbook Pro (this involves another piece of hardware and a little further away from digital transparency),

3) Find another player that can support 96kHz/24bit on the HDMI out (perhaps the Arcam 137 or 139 since they have been mentioned quite a bit on various forums),

4) Find an external firewire/USB based recording equipment (like M-Audio Profire 610 or the Focusrite Sapphire) that supports 88.2kHz/24bit on the spdif in port and hook it up to the Macbook Pro.

 

I am hoping someone who has been down this path and point me in the right direction, as I am getting this so-close-and-yet-so-far feeling. I have all the motivation to archive my SACD collections as soon as I can, because I have learned through my other project to archive my entire CD collections that optical CD's do not last (some 20 year old CDs have deteriorated so much that they cannot be ripped or played).

 

Thanks for you help and input in advance.

Cheers.

 

[ted_b]

but not in capturing for recording. Here's my take:

1) it does require a hack cuz supposedly there are known problems with certain Intel-based Macbook pro's regarding 88.2k sample rate.

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2315

2) dunno

3) they don't exist. The DSD-to-PCM offerings out there are either 24/88.2K (majority) or 24/176.4k (Arcam, early PS3's, new Sony 770 announced). The main reason you won't find a 96k DSD conversion in a player is cuz it is not integer friendly to DSD's 1 bit 2.8244ghz (64 times redbook). The 88.2k and 176.4k are the correct divisors.

 

If you sit tight long enough there will no doubt be some new HDMI-to-DSD DACs and cards out there, now that the HDMI HDCP key has been found and hacked. In the meantime, what others are doing is:

* having Oppo modded with Shawn Fogg's spdif board (on my list to do soon, but for me it's listening only, via multichannel DAC)

* install three m-Audio Delta cards in Windows Xp Sp2

* use Adobe Audition to capture three multichannel streams

 

net/net, PITA!

 

 

 

[barrows]

There are ways to get high res PCM from SACD with some affordable pro audio products, as I recall, Tascam has something that will do this, and perhaps also Korg. Boulder Amplifiers website may have something about this, as I remember someone from there mentioning to me how they got high res PCM rips from SACDs to use with their high res player. From the aboce it would seem the way to go is 24/176.4 PCM, and then record the stream on the computer.

 

[ted_b]

capabilities, but the OP's issue is not really DSD recording it's getting the info off of pre-recorded SACD discs. Tascam and Korg will not help per se. There are transports that will allow this (Playback Designs $15k, EMM $10k, etc) and then capture with $20k Soundstream pro or the aforementioned Korg/Tascam..but this is hardly a solution for the OP.

 

Me, if I decide to record the PCM'd DSD I'll use the modded Oppo (4 spdif board) and send to MH LIO-8, which will allow my Mac to capture it via firewire (with something like Wave Editor). But for now I'm happy just planning on using the DAC to playback PCM'd DSD.

 

[barrows]

Are you sure? I pretty sure I remember the guys from Boulder Amplifiers saying that Tascam has an affordable prosumer device that will play SACD discs and output high res PCM for capture. I think the unit they were talking about also included a computer interface, but I might be wrong about that.

I'll do some research, and repost if I find anything. It would be cool to come up with an affordable way to get 24/176.4 PCM from SACD.

 

[ted_b]

I'm only aware of Boulders 800/1000/2000 series stuff. Very good, very pricey (affordable is relative) and not SACD-capable if I remember.

 

[audiozorro]

there will no doubt be some new HDMI-to-DSD DACs and cards out there.

 

Good advice. We are often pushing the envelope beyond where the market is prepared to go right now. Hackers and DIY modders have an advantage in these pursuits but others usually have to wait. I believe there has been several DSD capable DAC chips in many affordable DACs today, but for some reason those features are not enabled.

 

The best solution for SACDs is a DSD DAC and not a conversion from DSD to 24/176.4 PCM. I view anything less as a temporary solution that is better than the RDBK hybrid layer. Of course I feel the ultimate solution is just to get the DSD data files and dispense with realtime playback from optical discs period.

 

[barrows]

I would not expect to see HDMI compliant DACs anytime soon. My understanding is that a company would need to have an HDMI license to produce an HDMI DAC. While the expense of these licenses is no problem for a large company, that can expect to spread the cost over tens of thousand of units (Oppo, Sony, Toshiba, etc) high end DACs are produced in the thousands only. I am not sure that a high end company will be able to offer HDMI input on a DAC that is not a mass market consumer type product.

Direct DSD input is also a problem, AFAIK Sony does not allow for in the clear DSD to be used in consumer products. perhaps with the marginalisation of DSD Sony will change their stance on this...

Yes, many DACs today are produced with DSD capable DAC chips, but getting the DSD to the chip is the problem, the most common way is to have a modder hack the DSD stream from an SACD player, and use a DSD capable DIY DAC.

I am not sure that DSD converted to 24/176.4 is that bad? My understanding is that this is a very easy conversion to make without artifacts being a problem. Right now I would be very happy if I could just pop SACDs into a drive, and get good rips at 24/176.4 to a hard drive; a simple way to this would be adequate for me, as streaming native DSD seems frought with difficulties.

 

[Miska]

perhaps with the marginalisation of DSD Sony will change their stance on this

 

At least there are some signs of this, since they already have and support (on PS3 and on their new SACD players) the unprotected DSD Disc specification. Not that I would have seen any of these discs on market yet. (?)

 

I am not sure that DSD converted to 24/176.4 is that bad? My understanding is that this is a very easy conversion to make without artifacts being a problem.

 

It just loses some of the advantages of DSD...

 

The conversion is not particularly complex, but it can be made in various different ways and since it's a bit processing expensive, many of the current ones seem to be more or less suboptimal. And these conversions are also always more or less lossy since it's a conversion between two different representation types.

 

 

[audiozorro]

Mytek Digital of New York City, manufacturer of high end mastering audio converters announced at AES Convention in New York, in October 2009, a brand new Stereo 192 DAC, top performance 192k PCM and DSD Digital to Analog Converter. The new DAC features USB and Firewire, as well as standard AES, SPDIF and Toslink inputs, capable of handling stereo PCM playback of up to 24 bit 192k as well as playback of DSD files with absolute state of the art accuracy and transparency.

 

Numerous features include: high end headphone amplifier, precision volume control with memory (separate for phones and main output), selectable upsampling to 192k and optional remote control.

 

The DAC will be available in Q1 2010, in both industrial and hi-fi 1/3 rack highly portable enclosure, at Mytek dealers worldwide. It's priced at $1595 for industrial version and $1695 for black or silver Hi-Fi version with RCA outputs.

 

Updated info:

Sunday, August 15, 2010

Mytek Digital USA to unlock DSD files playback capability via stand-alone USB/FireWire DAC -- a game changer?

Despite growing attention at audio shows and hype in specialist magazines, the increasing buzz around the subject of computer audio has not in fact translated to making the idea of hi-rez files playback take off in a real way, with many customers satisfied with their hi-end Bose iPod docking stations. Although a few small firms have taken a more serious approach (Linn, Naim et al), aiming to convert the mp3 crowd and bury the legacy 16/44 RBCD format by offering 24/96 PCM files support, they couldn't provide the organic sound we got used to listening to native DSD recordings (available on SACDs).

 

In comes MYTEK DIGITAL, the US leading manufacturer of digital audio converters, with its new DAC. Aside from basic capabilities of handling hi-rez PCM files (up to 24/192), it will be a first device letting you play native DSD files directly from your hard drive, "with absolute state of the art accuracy and transparency". Mytek has not yet revealed if the device will support both DSD 2.8MHz and 5.6MHz files (although already available Mytek A/D converters offer support for both sampling speeds).

 

Planned release date: 4Q 2010, price $1500. Now, if only labels like Sony could open their vaults and start selling DSD records through digital distribution...

 

Specifications:

 

* New 1/2 rack wide series

* audiophile quality conversion, 120dB, 192 kHz, DSD

* USB2.0 and Firewire interfaces

* Standard AES, SPDIF, SDIF, WCK, optical ins/outs

* Audiophile quality headphone ampli?er

* Precision analog stepper attenuator

* Balanced XLR and unbalanced RCA outputs

* Built in optional upsampling to 192k w/ jitter reduction

* ultra stable clock reference source with wordclock out

 

 

 

[barrows]

Cool news from Mytek! Thanks for posting this. Now if we could figure out how to easily get DSD from SACDs into our libraries...

 

[OpusOne]

It would be really close to digital nirvana if we can extract both hi-res PCM (achievable now) and DSD from ho-res digital disc. In the mean time, while we are soldiering on with recording hi-res PCM, has anyone experimented with both MAC and Windows based platforms and concluded with a certain preference? If yes, what is the set up of the DAW and SW used?

 

[audiozorro]

we can get all high res files directly from digital downloads or on data discs. My experience with dBpoweramp, EAC and different CD drives reinforces my opinion that rips/extractions will always be second best to just getting the data files directly.

 

Ripping CDs and digitizing LPs make sense because of the enormous number of albums on these formats and already in the hands of consumers, many of which will never be available as digital downloads or on data discs.

 

By contrast the numbers of albums on DVD-As, SACDs, or Blu-ray discs are very small and many feel that the DVD-A and SACD formats are dead. I happen to believe that SACDs are a small niche market primarily for those audiophiles who enjoy high res classical music. I believe the only advantage to SACDs over direct digital files now is multichannel audio, which narrows the niche even further. I also feel that the Blu-ray format is a better format for operas and can provide any sonic qualities that DVD-As and SACDs offer, which reinforces my belief that when CD/DVD/Blu-ray players dominate the home theater markets, players that also support the DVD-A and SACD formats will continue to decrease.

 

 

 

[Miska]

I believe the only advantage to SACDs over direct digital files now is multichannel audio

 

FLAC works just fine for multichannel audio, as 2L has demonstrated already. Bluray is a bit tricky on audiophile front, due to lack of proper audio-only variant and equipment.

 

SACD has sonic potential, but it requires native DSD recordings and DA-conversion without intermediate PCM stage. At the moment this tends to be the case only for stereo...