Survey - what power conditioner do you use, if any?

[barrows]

Totally agree with what you are saying. My response is that designers should be sure to use low distortion, low noise AC power when developing audio products-preferably very expensive laboratory type supplies (these are much more dear than audiophile products). The reality is, that if the designer voices the component for the AC power from the wall, that voicing will only be consistent for the AC power available at his wall, at the time which he actually did the voicing. The AC power at the customers location (or dealers for that matter) will be entirely different, so the voicing will not be consistent from one location to the next. The "reference" AC power should be as close to perfect as possible-unlike the subjective nature of audio reproduction (which I agree is subjective at the level our technology is currentlty at), AC power itself is not subjective in nature-it is simple-by definition it should be a 60 Hz sine wave, with no distortion, no noise components, and at a stable 115-120 volts (precise voltage is not important, as long as it is stable at one voltage).

On tube gear, I love the sound of the contemporary Reference Series stuff from AR, this modern gear does not really exhibit the "traditional" tube sound (syrupy, slow transients, super wet, etc) to me SETs and old school tube gear can sound great with simple music (singer songwriter) warm, inviting, even enveloping, but falls apart with complex music (orchestra, busy progressive rock, even Jazz quartets going hard). There is solid state I really like as well (Pass, Vitus) and I can remember one SS amp from down under that is very well regarded that just does not sound like music to me, regardless of its vanishingly low distrotion and noise...

 

[cfmsp]

 

"...except that I would not say that both points of view are "right", at least when it comes to AC line distortion."

 

I agree Barrows, my comment could use a disclaimer, e.g. "there's no accounting for tastes". IOW, if someone thinks the distortion makes the sound seem more like "live", that's what matters.

 

"It is true, that when one takes away this extra energy, sometimes the initial impression is one of lack of "air" or high frequency extension, but that impression is in error as the extra energy was an artifact, and an artifact that actually obscures real musical detail."

 

Totally agreed, and this could be an explanation for (some) claims that power conditioning make sound dry/dull/lifeless/whatever, and is therefore a detriment?

 

 

"If one goes from a system tuned to sound tonally balanced with no power conditioning-it is usually necessary to re-tune the tonal balance of the system when one adds good power conditioning"

 

Voila, and what happens when one's own power conditioning and/or AC circuit is different than that of the amp designers? (note: that's rhetorical)

 

I would agree with anyone (such as Alan Maher) who suggests that the amplifier(s)/AC interaction is quite important - a la the speaker/room interaction - given that both AC circuit and listening room are not available to the product designer, being totally listening-environment-specific.

 

 

Re SET and tube amp distortion, again we're totally agreed, I was just using this as an example, and esp. as it regards, if it sounds like live music to you, then it's "right".

 

I have three different yet very simple amps = a Nelson Pass First Watt J2 (my third non Threshold Pass amp), a 47 Labs GainCard "chip amp" (with dual 50w power supplies), and a Don Garber Fi Super X 300B integrated amp; the latter two amps having integrated volume controls. The J2 is considered (by Nelson anyway) as a Single Ended Transistor amp, while the Fi amp is Single ended Triode, of course.

 

They all sound great to me.

 

thanks for your response.

 

I notice my AC coach/guru has also weighed in on this "off line". Perhaps I'll be channeling him later.

 

clay

 

PS, Rick, thanks also for your response. Re the example being kind of 'extreme', given Barrow's reporting that typical AC THD% is in the 3-10% range, I'd say this example makes my point rather well, as regards the so-called immediacy/liveliness effect that could be due to the respective distortions.

 

The tube products I've owned (the Fi amp, and a Dehavilland Ultraverve Pre) don't seem to suffer these generalized tube faults (to my ears). Well, maybe the Harvey Rosenberg NYAL Super IT phono preamp sounded a bit more glorious than a straight wire. ;0

 

 

 

 

 

[Panelhead]

That reminds me of my reaction. Listened to a pair twice. Cables and speakers were different.

I think we all try to compensate for anomalies in frequency response. Removing some hash will darken and thicken the sound a little.

I prefer components with either EI core power transformers or torriods with input filters to plug in conditioners. After that there is plenty of noise generated by the rectifiers. The switching noise and charging currents dwarf the issues coming from most AC lines.

Course most here have heard the improvements made by power conditioners.

 

George

 

[rom661]

Clay

 

By extreme I was merely referring to the characteristic sound of an SET compared to a modern push/pull tube design. Really was just talking about subjective issues, not your point about the electrical characteristics. The ARC gear I'm so fond of doesn't suffer from those faults either. In fact the 40th Anniversary preamp I have the pleasure of listening to doesn't really sound like much of anything except music... The holy grail.

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

This arrived in my inbox shortly after your response to me above, beginning with "mostly in agreement here". It's from an(other) AC Guru who no longer posts here for reasons I"ve articulated plenty enough recently.

 

 

 

"Barrows is right, but...

 

 

The power certainly is variable from location to location and from time to time. It depends on not only what is coming into the building, but also on what is connected and powered on within the building. On top of that, it isn’t just the noise on the line and the quality of the waveform, but the AC mains also adds another hidden connection path for undesired signals to pass between equipment in very non-linear ways.

 

But… (I always do that, don’t I?) Doesn’t the preamp/amp/source/turntable/et al designer/engineer/artist/genius use polluted power, too? Answer me that! The exceptions are the guys who use battery power, since that is always independent of the AC mains conditions.

 

 

[... some stuff about instantaneous peak blarney snipped]

 

 

To me, the real reality is that the electronics work in concert with the AC mains the same way the loudspeakers work with the room acoustic. Ignore both at your peril. Battery power is similar in that regard to using headphones.

 

 

I also think that the designer/engineer/artist/genius guys tweak their creations to give certain characteristics, often from taking advantage of distortions.

 

One example is the dynamic range of SET amplifiers. Come’on – they don’t have that much power – that’s physics. But, as they are driven harder they compress some in a way that makes the music sound louder. Personally, if that gives you the listener the right illusion, I say great!

 

I think the same is true for other designs. Dirty power may have its advantages."

 

for your enjoyment,

clay

 

 

[cfmsp]

thanks for clarifying, Rick

 

FWIW, Alan Maher's AC circuit tuning products can have as great (or greater) impact on sonics than the differences between my solid-state and SET tube amps, although probably not as deviant (from neutral) as the characterizations (was it Barrows or yours?) of tube gear in this thread, i.e. syrupy, etc.

 

 

Cheers,

Clay

 

[daglesj]

Here is a pic of the gubbins inside one of Russ Andrews Silencer power filters.

 

I could never detect a difference. Thats why after a few years I ripped it apart to make sure it actually had something in it.

 

 

[Panelhead]

Looks like about 25.00 in parts if built in single digit quantities.

 

George

 

[barrows]

looks like a fairly simple capacitive filter, operating in parallel, with the addition of a tranzorb type diode for a little bit of surge protection (maybe just protection for the caps). Parallel filters like this can have a nice result, typically cleaning up some of the high frequency hash on the line.

 

Regarding manufacturers: At PS Audio we always did listen testing of designs with power supplied by our own AC regenerators. This gave us a consistent AC power baseline to work with. The output of the PS regenerators is not "perfect" but it is a lot more "perfect" than the line, and is also consistent despite the variations present in the AC line. BTW, batteries are certainly not "perfect" either, and come with their own set of inadequacies-they also vary by type (SLA, Lithium Ion, Lithium Nanophosphate, Nickel Metal Hydrate, etc). Different types of batteries have different internal impedances, and different noise levels (yes, contrary to some beliefs, batteries are not noise free).

I am experimenting now with Lithium Nanophosphate (LIFePO4) batteries, I think these have a potential to become quite popular for powering low current audio circuits (DAC chips, phono stages, etc).

 

[megamokey]

anyone have a good power conditioner to suggest for a luxman 505u-amp?

 

 

 

[twelvebears]

I have a PS Audio Power Plant Premier and I'm very pleased with it. I find that it makes my system more consistent and delivers a 'late night' performance even if it's evening and everyone in the neighbourhood is using their hobs, ovens and kettles.

 

The kit is just hooked up with some carefully home-made, shielded mains cables.

 

As with many things audio, 'milage may vary' depending on your equipment, where you live etc but for me, getting the power sorted is an essential part of getting the best out of any system.

 

I should also say that I think the PPP is great value for a complex bit of kit that actually does something - measurable regulating the output voltage and THD - rather than some of the massively expensive passive filters around.

 

I also can't get my head (or wallet) around some of the crazy money power leads, some of which cost more than a PPP....

 

[megamokey]

Hi Steve,

 

thanks for your input. Been looking at both passive and active power modification and PS Audio's powerplant seems to crop up quite alot as far as active ones go.

 

Been wanting to try this out at home and maybe your input has pushed me in the direction of actually getting one home on loan and hear it for myself.

 

Still not sure it's where I need it the most system wise but I'll be sure to update my experience here if and when I've tried it out.

 

Kind regards

 

Per

 

[twelvebears]

Sorting out power issues can be expensive and it's always a tough call to decide that the money is best spent on power products rather than an upgrade to a bit of kit.

 

The thing to keep in mind is to look at the cost in the context of the whole system. Resolving mains quality will maximise the performance of everything in your system and make it perform consistently. What's more, that consistent performance will be mobile because that clean power goes where your power products go, especially with a PPP which regenerates the actual supply.

 

If you invested the same money in an equipment upgrade would you notice the same improvement? I guess it depends what level of performance and cost your kit is really, but what if you move home? You could end up somewhere with crappy mains power and then that upgraded kit fails to deliver.

 

Whatever the situation, I'd say that sorting power issues out becomes key at the point where you're generally happy with your system and have no burning urge to change any one bit.

 

[megamokey]

Putting it that way should make it easy as there's other things I want to get as well - I guess Im just itching to get it all right NOW. Anyways, if I get something home I'll be sure to let you know.

 

/P

 

[barrows]

it is important to think of your AC power supply as the foundation to the performance of your system-in other words, without relatively clean and stable AC power, none of your components can perform their best. Remember that the sound which comes out of the speakers is nothing more than the AC power modulated by the music signal. I would never consider upgrading components before getting the AC power sorted, additionally, a good power conditioner upgrades every component plugged into it, and as such is a very cost effective upgrade.

 

[mgs]

... listening after midnight. My system (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Show-us-your-equipment-kit#comment-67716) is in a dedicated circuit and everything but the amp is pugged into an ExactPower EP15/Sp15 combo. Yes, the conditioner helps during the day and evening times when there is so much crap (from computers, refrigerators, etc.) in the supplied electrical power but the system NEVER sounds as good as listening in late hours, with or without the conditioner (the ExactPower one, as well as others I have tried before).

 

Michael

 

[megamokey]

Thanks for your input barrows. I've been thinking GIGO from the beginning. Only I never even considered that the power supply could be an issue until very recently.

 

Looking at the alternatives it seems to me that there are many ways to go about power supply the wrong way. That begs the question if someone like me should mess with it, given the cost of these things I mean.

 

Can't say I feel confident...

 

All the best

 

Per

 

 

[Tipper]

A dedicated mains supply is imo the best answer.

Once installed you won’t have to worry about whether a particular power conditioner is supplying sufficient current or peak voltage, or have endless little conditioning boxes lying about. Each future upgrade will benefit.

Failing this a full mains regenerator seems to be the only sure way of ensuring cleaner power.

 

 

[rom661]

I've voiced this before, I'm sure I will regret it this time. I haven't heard everything, although I've heard quite a few on a wide range of systems.

 

In my view the best power conditioner is none. I know barrows feels incredibly strongly that I'm wrong headed and he is entitled to his opinion as I am to mine. In the last month I visited a very serious system, about 150K in value. I'm not going to name the product but he had some very expensive multi thousand dollar power conditioners. His complaint was that his sound was analytical and unmusical. Over his protests I unplugged his preamplifier from the conditioner and straight into the wall. He was shocked. Music came back. Yes, there were elements that you could ascribe to the power conditioner that were improved, noise floor, etc. But if it interferes with the ability to convey music, who cares about that stuff? Listen to the noise floor at your next classical symphony. By the way, the manufacturer of his electronics, Audio Research, is adamant that conditioning not be used with their products.

 

I heard a big Furman once that I was hard pressed to hear any degradation with. Maybe there are other things like that. Maybe, as barrows has often said, there are issues that beg to be addressed. My point is, simply, that in my experience most of these attempts are net losses in musical peformance

 

So, just another view. Please don't tell me why I'm wrong. Please don't tell me that my experiences are invalid. Talk about yours all you want. If you want to buy 10 of the things, more power to you (bad pun). Just know that I don't sell power conditioners any longer, by choice, and have no reason to slam them. In fact, business wise, I should be selling them but don't. I love the idea, just not what I've experienced with the reality. Maybe I'm still bleeding from a popular manufacturer's power conditioning product that wiped out one of my customer's system. Not really; that was a one off and is not something I hold against the product category. I'm sure, with barrow's knowledge of power conditioners, he could figure out the scenario.

 

As in all things, listen. Remember, it's music we're after not sound. My customer has every tweek imaginable in his system. Each one provided him with something he could hear sonically so he went with it. His actual music gear is superb. It is the worst sounding megabuck system I have ever heard. He killed it. And I suspect he will plug the preamp back into the power conditioner because he just can't help himself.

 

Rick

 

I just wanted to present another view. I'm not entering into a debate. Do what you like and I hope you love the results you get, whatever the path.