How much does it cost to be an audiophile?

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The article had a pretty good representation of an audiophile-grade entry system ($7,500). The $45k McIntosh system seemed it would be very nice.

 

I used to think the average experienced audiophile has a system around $15-20k, but after that retail price poll, it seems that my guess is probably on the low end.

 

Another thing, audiophiles like spending big dollars I bet as much as I like visiting the dentist -- I'll do it only as a last resort.

 

There's a lot of non-audiophiles here who are more into class warfare than audio quality, who I don't mind personally but I feel obligated to improve the SNR of the discussion.

 

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Having flown first class many times I can tell you that it’s a ripoff — you get very little for a lot of money.

 

1. Priority security lane. I also get this as a points member with a credit card.

2. First to board. Who cares. I get middle priority with credit card membership anyway.

3. Pre take-off drink. Who cares.

4. Larger seat. The main reason for first class. Buying two coach seats often costs less and gets you even more room.

5. De-plane quickly. Okay that’s a big plus for a frequent flier, but still not worth the cost.

 

First class international wide body accommodations are very nice and it’s the best way to fly overseas, but the price is completely absurd, you can often get 2 coach seats for less than half the price.

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Dealers suck. They will try and gauge what you want to spend and then push something in that dollar range. If I were a dealer I would push whatever I thought would sound best and work with the customer to find the best price/performance compromise.

 

...not that I’d want to be dealer. Most everyone is just going to buy used or on clearance somplace so I’d be working for nothing most of the time.

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There's a tendency among audiophiles to be politically correct about other people's entry level / low end systems.

 

For example, let's take Audiophile A who has spent 10 years and tens of thousands of dollars to piece together Magico + VAC system and after a lot of trial and error finally has achieved audio nirvana. Crystal clear highs, powerful transients, expansive soundstage with rock-solid imaging, high resolution and pinpoint focus.

 

Audiophile A visits friend B. Friend B assembled a 3-way speaker kit from Madisound, bought a vintage Yamaha integrated receiver off eBay to drive them, a Denon automatic turntable and a DragonFly Black off his laptop for digital. Audiophile A is a little surprised how good such a cheap/modest setup sounds -- not that he would ever trade it in for his Magicos and VACs; it's good, but doesn't hold a candle to his own setup.

 

Audiophile A, if he was being truthful would tell Friend B that while his system is pretty good it has much, MUCH further to go. Audiophile A is a social person obviously he's not going to go around and bad-mouth his friend's system. Maybe Audiophile A is a little peeved that Friend A seems a little too smug about building a system that doesn't compare to his own, but it's not like he would ever start a fight over it.

 

I'm the inner voice of Audiophile A. It's easy to just virtue signal about hi-fi for less, but it's tough to come out and shoot them down as entry level crap that should be seen as nothing more as a stepping stone for beginners to get into real audio.

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I'm neurotypical. In fact it's neurotypical to be socially adept enough not to put down someone else's inferior stereo system. This is the Internet though, some normal forms of face-to-face social communications don't apply.

 

VAC sounds better than a Yamaha. Magicos sound better than a sub-$1000 Madisound kit. That is the complete truth. Even though these cheaper options may be surprisingly good in some ways -- maybe even many ways -- they won't compete with the modern high-end. An experienced, ear-educated audiophile wouldn't be able to bear the audio downgrade from trading in his high end system for the "well-regarded cheap" option. Everyone here, excepting maybe those who have never heard high-end audio once in their lives (studio engineers usually have no contact with high end audio), knows this fact.

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2 hours ago, lucretius said:

The topic question is one for the religious, not free thinkers.

 

You have very entry level systems, so I can understand your desire to reject high end audio but -- you don't have to. I think you'll find reaching for the next level of audio isn't unattainable. Why not head over T.H.E. Show Newport this weekend and expand your horizons? 

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My current system:

 

ProAc D30R: $4,000 (used)

Odyssey Stratos: $800 (used)

Schiit Freya + NOS tubes: $800

MoFi StudioDeck: $1,000

AT-OC9ML/II: $500

IFi Phono 2: $300 (used)

Holo Cyan DSD: $1,000

Custom PC + parts/PSU: $1,500 (approx.)

Cables: $1,500 (approx)

Room treatments: $1,000 (approx.)

 

So, current real value including used savings: about $12,400. In terms of price vs performance I judge it to be a pretty good value...if you don’t count the thousands of dollars spent getting there. Now, I intended the Freya and the Stratos to be fillers for a high end integrated or possibly separates — but the Stratos plays so well with the ProAcs I’m starting to question if I even want to upgrade. I’ll listen to some high end at THE Show this weekend. I really liked the Mark Levinson No.585 integrated at AXPONA which seems to pop up used a few times for around $7k. Other high-end integrateds on my radar are the Gryphon Diablo, Esoteric F-05 and McIntosh MAC7200 on the lower end. There’s that new $10k "affordable" Constellation. I’m not stuck to them so if anyone knows of some superior integrated please don’t be stingy.

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Yeah, the Emotiva speakers are probably awful. Notice how they will have a room at audio shows but somehow not manage to have a system set up.

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1 minute ago, esldude said:

Never noticed that.  Never been to an audio show.  I have listened to Emotiva gear in the systems of audiophiles.  Their natural habitat.  

 

I doubt any audiophiles have Emotiva.

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1 hour ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I often wonder from what authority you make these pronouncements...

 

"An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction. Audiophile values may be applied at all stages of music reproduction: the initial audio recording, the production process, and the playback, which is usually in a home setting."

I dont see anything about minimum monetary outlay required there...

 

The problem is the poor quality of Emotiva sound. 

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52 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

 

"An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction."

 

 

Is that big enough?

 

Neurotypical

Audiophiles care about sound quality, hence thier enthusiasm. This thought only requires one logical step.

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I auditioned an Emotiva A-300 a few years back I think...when it was first released. I figured, how bad can a modern class A/B sound? The answer: VERY BAD. The only linear amp I can recall disliking more than the A-300 was some no-name class A desktop headphone amp I bought from China for around $100 years ago. It was so bad I would have taken any of the high-end class D amps I’ve tried over it. What was wrong with it? It’s been a while now so I may not remember accurately why I hated it, but I seem to recall it being incapable of making a decent soundstage, and I think there was a tonal coloration I hated, or a lack of harmonic structure or something like that which made it super unsatisfying.

 

One thing is for sure: if I can’t tell the difference between that and a Mark Levinson, Pass, Esoteric, etc, I would seriously consider just abandoning audiophilia altogether because it’s obviously not for me.

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9 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Amusing, but has anyone here actually heard GUTB's system, or verified that he has no better audio discerning properties than the majority of those, usually from the hard line Objective side,  who love to take the piss out of him ?

 Perhaps he hasn't , but he does at least go to Audio Shows, and gets to hear a greater variety of equipment than somebody who rarely gets to hear recent Audio products.

 Yes, I do agree that he leaves himself wide open to attacks from the "Rat Pack"

 

Well, I have a duty to my fans...

 

I go to audio shows partly to maintain my motivation; by listening to higher end audio I can set my sites on sonic goals to strive for. If I never went to these shows I may just fall into a sense that I’ve achieved near perfection — visiting the good rooms at the shows makes sure that doesn’t happen and keeps me energized and to keep reaching upwards for greater sound.

 

Another reason is of course checking out stuff you’ve never seen before, talking to various manufacturers, etc.

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1 hour ago, beancounter said:

 

I was initially quite enthusiastic about Emotiva, hoping that I could perhaps extricate myself from my vintage/DIY dumpster.  I auditioned a couple of pieces, and while they were okay and a very good value for the price, they just didn't fit what I was looking for.  

 

I will also agree with the earlier sentiment that the gap is closing between mid-fi and high-end. 

 

 

I appreciate the genteel version of it sucks...

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Audiophiles are constantly pursuing greater audio quality. This upwards pressure in audio quality attainment means that spend will go up. If you don’t place much value in audio quality than you’re not an audiophile.

 

There’s a self-serving class warfare fantasy that audio quality doesn’t correlate with price — it generally does, and pretending your low-end / ultra low-end gear sounds good doesn’t actually make it so.

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I’m going to be attending THE Show this weekend, and I’m going to listen to a lot of systems. Now that I’ve settled on the ProAc D30Rs I’m on the hunt for an amp/pre or integrated that can take them to the next level. A wider strategic aim is to build a system that can reveal more benifits from higher end sources.

 

This is a normal audiophile process. Attaining higher sonic benifits always results in spending more. I’m fully prepared to face the fact that any good enough amp is going to have an MSRP over $10k. Of course I’ll hunt the used market, maybe get a show deal, etc. The price isn’t the goal, it’s just a barrier. I wish I can just go onto Amazon buy some Cambridge, Yamaha, Marantz, etc, and have that next performance level upgrade — but that isn’t possible.

 

Also, it’s not like the D30Rs are my stopping point just because I like them a lot. One day maybe I can have TADs. The great thing about being an audiophile is that your music library evolves with your system. 

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1 hour ago, esldude said:

How did you come to settle on the Proac D30 R speakers?

 

I’ve had my eyes on them for 2 years after I first heard them at a dealer. I heard them again at another dealer at some length, and I knew it had most of what I wanted at an attainable price — dynamic, resolving, super imagers and very nice ribbon tweeters that produce crystal clear non-fatiguing highs. The newer D-series with ribbons don’t come up used that often so when one popped up I grabbed them and so far it’s been a great move...even though I ended up having to get rid of the Linnenberg monos which are very fine amps and a big value at $5.4k; they just couldn’t handle the ProAcs.

 

So I ended up with a used Odyssey Stratos because according to Straus at Oddessey his amps match very well with ProAcs and at $800 used it was a no-brainer as a filler amp. This "filler" amp is actually very nice, and anyone who’s visited Odyssey rooms knows that they are very good performers. It’s just that I don’t want just "good", I want to take the ProAcs to the next level. Amps that I’ve heard at shows that stood out to me: Mark Levinson 585, Linnenberg Alegros, some Audionet, CH Precision, VAC Statement, Raven Audio Shaman monos. I’ve heard some great systems like Esoteric, TAD and GamuT but it’s hard to separate the amp from the rest of the system sonically speaking. Some of these amps are attainable...some are aspirational.

 

So what’s wrong with Odyssey? Nothing (except for it popping my speakers when turned on/off...it’s 16 years old maybe I’ll send it in for service/upgrades), it’s a GOOD amp, doesn’t suck at all. It’s just not next-level gear, and I want my ProAcs to go next level.

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Listened to the extremely high-end Dan D’Agostino room. Bi-amping a pair of YGs with a total of 4 Momentum monoblocks. The cool thing about this room was the use of the Stromtank, a massive panzer-sized German battery AC supply which they claim could run a system for 6 hours and completely isolate the system from the mains network. Probably has a high end anaolog AC waveform generator.

 

Sound through an Innous -> Aqua ladder DAC / AR Ref 10 is extremely transparent. Not the slightest hint of grain, digital or fatigue. Center image is completely separate from the speakers, so during vocals the speakers disappear completely. I couldn’t get much depth in what I heard though. It’s warm...perhaps too warm for my tastes. Bass is way too much...its cool being able to hear the synthetic bass cycling, but its too much and detracts from the presentation IMO.

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Disapointed in the Esoteric room today! This time they had Grandiosos on display and they were playing some tracks from an atendee's CD...played through a Grandioso disc player and into an Esoteric DAC...didn't identify if it was a Gradioso or not. It was an opera CD and BOY were the highs etched and sibilant! Not good! It sounded like good mid-fi or maybe high end consumer grade. I'll visit them again to see if they fixed the system...maybe the dome tweeters on the Cantons were breaking up?

 

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1 hour ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

The Esoteric room had problems Friday and they fixed them is all I was saying.

 

Many venders told me they were happy with the show. I’ll write some thoughts about it and some of the political things. As tease we (those who oppose MQA) may have to take out Long Beach on general principles.

 

I listened again today, it was much better. I was impressed with the finesse of the system.

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Several really good systems at THE Show, which, BTW, is a much more luxury experience than AXPONA.

 

I ended up going for a beautiful Triangle Arts turntable and speed controller at decent show prices. Now I have to figure out a rack system to support 100 lbs of turntable gear. They were showing a really good sounding 12" arm and high-end cartridge, but $16k for that is a bridge to far for me; I’ll get a nice arm when I get my next bonus. Very good sound in that room — but damn, TA electronics are expensive...

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1 hour ago, mav52 said:

You bought the Master Ref Turntable They were showing ?

 

Lol no. The Concerto with upgraded platter (much larger and heavier) - $6500 show price $4200. So basically street price of a Concerto with an upgraded platter thrown in. The speed controller is MRSP $2800 show price $2000, and is pretty heavy itself so altogether its supposed to be around 100 lbs.

 

It was shown with an Osiris 12” arm and with a pretty high end cartridge, looked like a Triangle Art Apollo. That combo has a MRSP of around $14k.

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I’ve read somewhere that IQ has gone up over the decades (correcting for factors like changes in economics, ethnic demographics, etc). But when I look at the technology developed with nothing but slide-rulers and scribbled math I can’t help but wonder if our measure of IQ is full of crap.

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So, a couple of things.

 

1. California is a failed state. Lifestyle homeless everywhere, gangs / crime, most neighborhoods are bombed out urban decayed trash. A few places like Orange County and the high-tech enclaves, etc, are still very nice but horrendously expensive— essentially a third-world gutter with a minority of haves doing thier best to stay out of the majority of have-nots.

 

2. Are there any places in the UK which are both not decayed urban trash and not horrendously expensive to visit?

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My work takes me to southern LA a few times a year, and sometimes to Silicon Valley. LA and SF are trash heaps with no-go areas. The nice neighborhoods are priced into the stratosphere. There’s great food, great shopping and wonderful lifestyle aspects to these places but you can get most of that in Texas and Arizona at a fraction of the cost — which is why Californians flood into these areas. Some of the upper end neighborhoods in the Phoenix area are just as nice as the better California neighborhoods so why would anyone rob themselves living in a failed state?

 

If I was the king of California I’d clean out the sanctuary cities, eradicate the shanty towns, crack down on the real estate market and send my goons after all the corrupt state apparatchiks. All the useless bloat would be eliminated — the displaced government workers can get a real job or leave the state I don’t care. Once the cancerous tissue is cut out I can work on getting business back into the state.