Circuit Breaker to Outlet AC Wiring and Ground

[KingRex]

 I'm an electrician and have done a lot of experimenting on the best way to get power from my panel to my rack.  It's easy to create a ground Loop, but it's also very easy to avoid. Grounding is a very key element in the equation. An old ground rod attached to your panel may not drain as effectively as you want it to.  Utilizing dielectric potting material or a ufer ground in your foundation will greatly reduce unwanted noise.  

 

 There are also ways to approach this with materials such as cord that are not necessarily code legal but do a far better job than pipe or Romex.  Isolation from vibration of the Romex is also important.  Spacing from any other electrical circuits is also important.  

 

The type of box you put in the wall and the receptacles you install in that box are very important.

 

By far the best sound I got out of my system was a 10 gauge OFC cord from my panel directly into a distribution power strip. No receptacle in the wall, no cord from the wall to the distribution strip, just a direct feed into the distribution strip.  Cord can not pass through a floor, but hey, I want the best sound, and it can be done safely.   All my gear is fed from that one power strip. I have 2x135 watt monoblock amplifiers, a tube preamp, a DAC, a phono stage and computer server all fed from it. This was by far the most quiet and resolving installation I found.  Dynamics are very high and noise has been greatly reduced. Some of that noise being physical mechanical vibration you hear such as Toroids in your power amp humming.  

 

If you're going to go the all code legal route 2 x 10 gauge runs of romex will work fine.  Not all Romex is created equal. Cheap Home Depot Romex sourced from China run through high-speed dies is full of crystals and impurities. Slow drawn American-made copper is better.  It takes time and effort to find a distributor that carries that copper. It is available.  Very high Purity copper wire pulled through PVC and twisted during the pull is also an excellent installation.  $250 per foot is high, but your in NY.  I bill $640 per day.  You have maybe 2 days of work if you rebuild your panel and ground your system right.  

 

If you don't have Furutec receptacle, buy Albert Porter's, Porter ports.  Do not purchase isolated ground receptacles. They do nothing for you and actually have an inferior ground compared to a regular outlet.

 

Do not run 4 wire circuits. You do not want to share a neutral between the two circuits. Run two separate 3 wire runs.

 

Once again, ground ground ground. You want the best ground possible attached to your panel.  You want your new circuits grounds connected right onto that new ground bus in your panel. You want that ground bus connected directly to your new ground rod or ufer ground. You don't want it running through the case of your panel from the neutral bonding point to the Ground Bar.  If  the ground is landed on the neutral bonding point you want a 6 gauge jumper from there onto your Ground Bar.

[KingRex]

45 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Maybe it had something to do with that leg/pole thing. On leg is on one side of Neutral and  the other leg is on the other side.

So it's 240V from one Hot to the other.

On ther other hand it could mean something else.

What they are saying is use the same phase.  Always A or B phase.  There can be small differences in voltage between A and B phase.  That small voltage difference can cause voltage differential to ride on the ground casing humming.  

[KingRex]

40 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

While the Safety Ground connection to the Neutral is an important part of the AC power system, the connection to Planet Earth does not enter into the day-to-day operation equation. It's only there for safety during thunderstorms, high voltage failures and to keep the Neutral near the potential of the soil.

True but untrue.  It matters and will affect the SQ of your system.

[KingRex]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

It will be the legal to code route.  Helps when I sell the house.  Thanks for the advice, I'll do as much as possible.  The new grounding rod will need to come in the spring due to the frozen tundra outside.  If I have 2 grounding rods won't that create an issue with some devices connected to one rod and others to the other rod?  Also, any box model recommendations?  I've already got some decent outlets, same as those you mentioned.

All grounds have to go to the panel.  Your electrician will not do otherwise.  You are just improving on the ground. Its the same as having a ground on the water pipe, ground rods and maybe a cast iron drain. You can't have too good a ground. Repeating myself, they all come back to the same point.  Never have a floating ground (not connected to the panel) .  It would never have enough potential to trip a CB if a fault went to ground. You would have 120 volt in your earth and when you went to turn on your hose, you would connect, lock on and probably die.   

 

I like Square D.  If you change your panel, the electrician may want to add a bunch of AFCI breakers.  They cost a good $48 my cost per.  Make sure to discuss.  Or, add a breaker or 2 for your new outlets and improve the ground in your panel.  Clean and deox the connections. Don't worry if your new feeds are AFCI.  The contact is the same in the device.  It just contains additional circuitry that senses arching conditions.

 

Search around online for wire wholesalers and ask where the wire is made and if its pure.  If you get lucky, you will find a guy who has worked with a lab, Med facility or military that demanded high quality conductor.  It will most likely be material to be installed in PCV or steel.  

 

Add a bank of outlets.  3 or 4 per feeder.   Have them all pigtailed back to the Incoming feed.  Don't go in and out of each receptacle.  Avoid distribution strips if you can.  Unless your willing to spend $ on the strip and cord connecting it to the wall.  That's just additional coloration.  Keep it simple with as few connections as possible.  

 

I'm Kingrex Electric on the internet in Seattle.  Call if you want. I have a website with contact info.  

[KingRex]

I'm not sure your question. I think of the SqD box as a panel,  not a junction box.  Your keeping your existing panel.    My thought is a new circuit breaker in your existing panel. 1 per circuit.  From the panel new NMB wire or conduit to a box in your wall where the receptacles are landed.   You said you have good receptacles.  Code says a 20A receptacle is required if only one outlet is provided.  Meaning 1 duplex receptacle is all that is connected to the new circuit.  The quality is more important than the rating.  The Porter Port or Furutech will have a little less edgeness on the top end.  Less fatigue.  The same trebble extension.  I am suggesting a multigang box in your wall holding more than 1 outlet so 15A are fine.  

[KingRex]

Thanks, I need to at one time or another try twisting 10awg NMB to see if that improves noise rejection.  Right now I just cant get beyond the cord I am using.  It really shut down mechanical humming I had from my amps.  I still have one existing feed of solid 10awg  THWN in steel that feeds things such as the wall warts that powers the speed controller on my TT, my TV and other non audio accessories.  The improvement of installing that dedicated circuit as opposed to 12 awg NMB in the wall that powered the whole living room was huge.  I mean really huge.  It did nothing to stop the mechanical hum from the Rega Osiris, but it sure increased the dynamics and bass response.  If you have a nice stereo, you are missing out on a lot of performance if you don't run dedicated lines to it.  The cord I utilize is only $5 per foot.  As a subcontractor I have installed a braid of pure silver (hot) and very pure copper (neutral and ground) conductor in a conduit directly into a custom power strip with very high end receptacles.   That created a stunning power supply.  I can install a system as such for those with a hefty bank account.  I would suggest it for tube gear.  That is what it was powering and it did a very good job.  I have all tube gear myself, but I was looking for a more cost effective route.  I did try military spec silver coated copper wire.  Oddly it was kind of dark.  Not what I expected.  The bass was more pronounced and powerful, but I find the CU cord more balanced and overall a better fit with my system.  Like you say, it is all system dependent on what material you use.  I do not think it system dependent that dedicated power will improve the overall performance.  I believe it is a firm truth. 

[KingRex]

I thought I was quoting Fast42 up above if this seemed out of the blue.

[KingRex]

On 1/2/2018 at 12:55 PM, Johnseye said:

This is the article, written by John Atkinson a while back that stated "the electrician ran two new 30A lines to the listening room, one with the hot on one side of neutral, the other on the other."

 

What does "hot on one side of neutral, the other on the other" mean exactly?

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/features/991ac/index.html#DeojY6Fsx2OqWbSZ.99

 

https://www.stereophile.com/features/991ac/index.html

 

 

He is saying use the same phase.  Use the CB space in the panel across from one  another.  Or, you need to skip a CB if going verticle. Vertically they are phase A, phase B, Phase A, phase B etc. Across from each other they're the same phase.  If you use different phases there can be voltage differences between the phases and that imbalance can ride on the ground causing ground loops and humming. Your electrician will know what that means. When you install this way you have to run a dedicated neutral per hot circuit.  That means you cannot use 10 gauge NMB that is black red white and green.  Run two completely separate feeder circuits.  Your electrician will also know what that means. 

 

If what I am telling you to do is not what John Atkins intended to say in stereophile, I would ignore his advice. I am telling you the best way to do it.  That might sound a little pretentious but I have not only experimented on my own system but read lots and lots and lots of articles written by people who build out power for high-end stereos and or recording studios. There are rules to follow in audio.

[KingRex]

18 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Why can't I use 10-2 NMB?  Shouldn't I be able to use this NMB provided it's dedicated per circuit?

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-wire-cable/shop-all-electrical-wire-cable/10-2-type-nm-b-cable-with-ground-wire/none/p-1474478926959.htm

 

I'm still leaning toward that twisted 10-2 I linked earlier.  What I just linked from Menards can't be twisted.  I may end up giving you a call tomorrow so I have this 100% straight.

You are using 10/2.  You have the correct type of wire.  You dont want 10/3.    I  have not had a chance to really look at the wire in the link to  see if it is as good a quality as you should get.  In the end any 10/2 is going to work well. Well sourced, more pure slow drawn wire is capturing  the last 5%.  Call Joe Pitman at Kosmic Audio.  He's a dealer and friend. Posts a lot on Audionirvana.  He found a nice 10/2 NMB.  He might know where to get more.  

[KingRex]

On 1/1/2018 at 7:58 PM, Johnseye said:

 

Thanks.  I have a Kill-A-Watt.  I measured a while back, doing the same thing you did.  I'm going by memory and think it was around 250 then.  I'll have to do it again.  I was looking at isolation transformers then.  I'm still thinking of adding one.

Careful with power conditioners. They work well with some gear and not with others.  If you have clean power avoide them. If dirty, you need to consider the source of polutiin and you need to consider the gear that will be on the conditioner.  Power conditioners (lumping isolation transformers into this) veil the sound and compress the soundstage. Sometimes.  Sometimes they remove harsh high frequency noise and improve the overall sound.  You need to find a thread about what works well and where.  There are 4 types of conditioners and they all have a good place, or a bad effect.

 

Having said that, I have a 2.4kva topaz line isolation transformer I don't use anymore. It worked well with my CJ Premier 140.  It did not work well with front end gear. 

I had a Isoteck Syncro and have friends with still in use.  It worked well with my Regarding Osiris.  It was horrble with my CJ. It did not work with my front end gear.  

I utilize and Akiko Corelli. I love it.  Works great with all my gear.  I took it to a friends place with more resolving speakers than mine. It ruined his bass and made the whole presentation flat.  The distributor said it has to be in system for 24 hours.  It was in for 3?????

 

Go through you house and replace every dimmer with a Litton Maestro 600 or 1000. Even the under cabinet lights. They are the worst.  Get plug in filters and place them next to your desktop computer.  

[KingRex]

On 1/2/2018 at 6:51 PM, Speedskater said:

Small difference? Nope, there is a 240 Volt difference between the A and B leg or pole. It's a center tapped single phase system.

I have not re-read the article but I have never seen a high leg in a residential setting.  They only exist off Delta 3 phase transformers. Houses are 2 leg single phase.  Unless you have a serious growler mansion as well as 3 phase being available on the street and you request the utility provide it you wont see it.   I doubt it was a high leg unless he was powering a recording studio or a store showroom. 

[KingRex]

On 1/2/2018 at 8:44 PM, monteverdi said:

what about metal clad wires vs romex? (MC wires are normally twisted )

Now your talking shielded vs not shielded.  Some people say shielding power conductors veils or compresses dynamics.  There is an interaction between steel MC and the power.  Steel is magnetic, as well as conduit.  You have to be careful to ground the casing well as it will, act as a choke and really cause problems.  Aluminum MC is not magnetic, but still needs to be grounded well.  .

It cost about 2 to 2.5 times the material cost to purchase MC and its harder to install.

 

Interesting thought. I have heard it suggested in the past but never read a real comparison between MC of either type and NMB.  

[KingRex]

16 minutes ago, Audiodinosaur said:

I'm going to ask a very basic question in what is a higher level thread: Is there any reason not to use a wall outlet rated at 20 amps in a 15 amp circuit?

 

I moved some audio equipment and decided to install some new outlets.  Found that the builder of my house had put outlets rated at 15 amps in a circuit with a 20 amp breaker.  Been here almost 20 years and the house didn't burn down, but I was definitely not impressed. Even I know that is not good.

 

But what about the other way?  Logic says there is no downside to having a higher rated outlet.

 

How about I try to stay at it this way. It's all about load diversity. When you have a 12 gauge 20 amp circuit running around the living room, you have five, six, seven eight or more outlets for that circuit to have a load connected to it. Any one of those Outlets will probably carry nothing more than a half to maybe two amps of load.

When you have a dedicated circuit run to a piece of equipment such as a garbage disposal or dishwasher you only have one Outlet. When you only have one Outlet, the code dictates you must provide a receptacle rated to the CB feeding it.  In that situation you need a 20 amp receptacle.

In a roundabout way I am saying putting 15 amp receptacles on a 20 gauge circuit when there are multiple Outlets is perfectly fine. It's what pretty much every installer does. A 15 amp preferred receptacle is about $0.49. A 20 amp receptacle is about $2.50. When you've got 60 to put in the house it starts adding up.

As a side note to that all, I hate installers who stabbed the wire in the back of a receptacle. It's a horrible horrible connection and I've seen many arcing incidents that melt the receptacle and the associated plastic box. That is how many fires happen in houses. That is also one of the reasons why $50 arc fault circuit breakers are now required on pretty much every feeder in your house. It stops arching  from happening.

 

  I would have to dig around in my code book and check, but I am not sure if you can put a 20 amp receptacle on 14 gauge wire that may be in your walls. A higher-rated outlet may leave the end user to think they can put a larger Appliance on to the circuit. 

[KingRex]

23 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

I can't use Romex.  Conduit is code.  Plus, twisting pairs and ground with Romex isn't possible.  Here's what I ordered.  It is from Southwire.

 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-10-AWG-2-Conductor-Twisted-Submersible-Pump-Cable-By-the-Foot/50111480

 

I don't understand, do you live in a Brownstone.  If so and the requirement is for steel/AL jacketed MC cable or conduit  then a pump cord would not fit code.  Cord is not code legal in a residence anyways.  Look up NEC 400.8 uses Not Permitted.  

 

Of course I love cord.  If your going the non code legal route I would steer you to an OFC cord that is around $5 or so a foot.

[KingRex]

If he is coming Monday get the 10/2 NMB. Get enough to make 2 full runs/circuits.   Make sure he twist it and keeps the runs 4 to 6 inches apart.  Don't twist them together and don't pull them in the same hole. Try to keep the runs as close to the same length as possible. You might want to get some multi gang cut in boxes. Especially if you were looking to have three or more receptacles in the wall per circuit. Get the hard more durable feeling plastic box and buy the ones that are as deep as possible.  It will sound great.

 

FYI  it does take 4 to 5 weeks to really smooth out. It will have a lot of energy and might be slightly fatiguing it first. Give it some time to break in. Overall it should just end up being a very beneficial Improvement. Please send some pics of the work and let us know how it sounds.

 

[KingRex]

Of course I'm happy to fly out and do the work.  I love hearing other 2 channel audio systems.  If you live in a state where you can pull your own permit, its all above board and your insurance is in place. 

I can be reached at 206 949 5739 pnw time zone. 

[KingRex]

13 minutes ago, monteverdi said:

KingRex what is your opinion on junction boxes (Steel or Plastic)?

I don't really know.  I think about resonance control and density. The power distribution strip I built for myself is a 1/2 inch Corian enclosure with a half inch thick acrylic top. I filled it with 4 gauge Furutech wire.  The custom unit Joe makes with Kosmic is a 2 inch thick acrylic body and a honeycomb carbon fiber top.

 

If I was crawling under a house, I would not staple my wire to the bottom of the joist where they would be influenced by the vibration of the bass.  I would hang them.  I want a degree of anti resonance without getting the sorbothane flatness. 

 

So steel or plastic?   There are choices with plastic.  There is Home Depot blue plastic. There is supply house black and grey plastic.  Steel is pretty dense, and if you took fire tape and coated the body it would be more dense.  I guess you could coat the plastic too.   I have tried steel and heavy duty blue plastic. They both worked fine.  I did not have an ahh experience with either.  I did get an ahh with my distribution box and ofc cord. 

 

[KingRex]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

George, KingRex, others - do any of you have thoughts on whether the iso. trans. should be close to the audio gear?  or fo ft. away?

They hum, away in another room. Rember, they have about a 7 percent loss. A 2.4 kva transfer wastes 168 Watts an hour.  X 24 a day x 30 days x 12 cents an hour adds up. 

[KingRex]

2 hours ago, look&listen said:

 

Do you have a link, or product name ?  tia

Cullen Cable.  He sold me some bulk. But I don't know how much more he wants to sell that way. Or what price he's going to offer someone else. I'm a contractor.

[KingRex]

9 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

+1

I am really no authority at all on dirty power and how to clean it.  I did the try and see route and came to a similar conclusion to most people I talk to.  If you don't have dirty power, don't use a conditioner.

 

If you do have dirty power they can help in many ways and improve upon your situation.  The question is how do you know if you have dirty power. 

• Do you amps or linear PS hum audibly at different times of the day.  That would be an indicator.
• There are inexpensive plug in devices that have a visible indicator of some sort indicating dirty power.
• The only real was is a power analyzer, they cost money and most electricians won't have them.  I don't have one either so I went the guessing route.  It was frustrating how some items helped certain issues and how certain conditioners altered the sound of front end vs power amps.  And, as we know, any audio dealer that carries a conditioner carries the best of the best, no other competes and it will solve everything with no detrimental affects.  Yea sure.  So salesmen are not a lot of help.
• Experiment.  Can you get demo gear to your house.  If I already had a 1kva Topaz Line Iso transformer, I would insert it into my system.  Make sure there are receptacles also available that are not on the transformer line to compare and contrast.

 

All or most of you may have read a ton about dirty power and power conditioners and know a lot more than me.  This is just a few concepts I have come to believe.  I think of 4 types of dirty power

1 Sagging voltage or fluctuating voltage

2 DC on the AC lines

3 Sine wave/harmonic distortion

4 high frequency pollution from radio waves or other interferences.

 

There are 4 main types of power conditioners and they seem to have the best effect for certain types of pollution.  Regenerators, Transformers, Capacitors, high frequency filters.  Some work better with certain types of equipment.  Its just so hard to know what works well.  And, a good conditioner is $$$$

 

 

The solution at my house for a very tube based system and a very nice music server with linear power supplies was a cord from my panel direct to a very dense heavy power distribution strip, and I utilize an Akiko Corelli.  It works for me.  I took the Akiko to a friends house with a very balanced system and it ruined his bass.  The distributor said it has to be in place for 24 hours to work best.  We had it in place for a solid 3 hours.  When removed, it was immediately noticeably better without it.  

 

I think I already said all this, Joe with Kosmic has Genesis amps and speakers.  He has a world class system.  He also has some of the worst power issues I have heard.  He and uses Isoteck.  He very much likes it and it helps - a lot.

 

I have listened to a system over $1M.  That systems front end has a huge Equitech power system.  And an amazing amount to grounding devices.  I have never felt like I was in a tomb until in that room.  When the music starts, it really comes from nowhere.

 

Anyhow, I don't know how to determine or how to address what sort of pollution is on your lines.  For me and pretty much everyone I know Its trial and error.  I have not meet or heard of the salesman that comes to your house with a power analyzer and a variety of equipment for a plug and play demo.   Its system AND location dependent, but I do believe you get what you pay for.  I tried a PS Audio Humbucker due to its price point.  It was horrible.  I even put 4 caps on a diode and inserted it into the neutral line at my house.  It was actually very effective at getting rid of noise.  It was also horrible in the veil on the music.  It does however do a fantastic job at providing a much more stunning picture on my Plasma TV.  Go figure.

 

I saw a large number of Audioquest Niagara 5000 at Axpona.  If I did not have my Akiko I would try one.  I really do like my Akiko.  I really cant tell its in the system.  If I unplug it, the sound does not seem to change much.  It is a little more clear with it in than out.  The big benefit is it shuts down transformer humming pretty darn good.  About 85% to 90% is gone.  Some days its almost dead quiet.  Other days I can hear the amps from a couple feet away.  Not at the listening station any more.  Before the Akiko, the hum was heard in the next room. 

 

I would also say my Cord and Distribution power strip is probably responsible for maybe 30% to 40% of the noise reduction in my system.  Not necessarily the humming.  The noise floor dropped dramatically with it.  I mean noise floor as you don't know you have noise till its gone. When the cord and strip went in, it was subtle, but also wow, its way more quiet.  I can hear so much more in the songs I use to play.  That along with the last few changes I did to my music server, I really feel I am able to hear the power amps? Recoding Booth?  I feel I am getting much closer to the source sounds.  There is just something way more tactile about the presentation now. 

My digital has also for sure far surpassed my TT in most all ways.  I really hear the noise from the phono preamp and needle on the vinyl now.  At least I notice it a lot more.  The music server gives a new perspective.  My point being, I did not know I had the TT noise, until I had a source with so little noise, I then recognized it for what the noise was/is.

 

In a sense its all about tuning a stereo.  It seems to take years and a lot of trial and error.  Every room is different.

[KingRex]

19 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Thanks - is this the iso-tech you mentioned?

 

http://www.isoteksystems.com/

 

Yes. He uses multiple syncro and the high end Titan.  I just had a Syncro. 

[KingRex]

Exactly Ralf11.  I have looked at those.  I am not opposed to think of using such a device  next to my home computer of refrigerator.  Of course Speedskater is correct.  The testing device is probably a piece of junk, but it is probably purpose built to look for very specific types of  pollution such as computers and dimmers.  You would hope the cleaning devices is inexpensive but effective at  targeted home appliances.  PS audio  makes a Noise Harvester.  Other companies make a similar device.   Shunyata has a few choices.   I believe my Akiko is based the same principles but more broad spectrum. 

 

I am really just trying to find the best way to get good sound.  I believe clean constant power is key.  It is my belief a scavenging type conditioner trying to get the pollution off the lines before it really gets in and pollutes is a positive thing.  I like that method before actually interrupting the power line and inserting a cleaning device.  I feel a device you actually plug into has a stronger chance of really changing the overall performance of a piece of gear.  That may be for the good in some instances, but, I think the designers of our amps, preamps etc are designing to a sound based upon clean power in the first place.  Not filtered power.  Yes I am filtering the power, I just find plug in devices are very impactfull.  I want to get the job done with the least impact.  I want my gear to speak clean and clear in the voice they were given.   I have actually been doing a little looking to see if I cant just plug my desktop {Non Audio} into a conditioner to  stop the gunk before it even hits the lines.

 

Along these lines I am also thinking that not only putting my NAS, Switch and Router on a linear PS will help with the digital signal, it may also keep computer filth from getting back onto my power lines.

 

Every step in the right direction is great.  I changed a Cat5 jumper to cat 6 yesterday.  I heard the change and really like what I heard.  I am now looking at a full loom of Inakustik Cat 7 cable for all my internet associate with my audio gear.  Clean digital power.  

[KingRex]

5 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Actually what we should look at are the outputs of our hi-fi components:

a] First look at the signal-to-noise ratio at the audio outputs.

b] Then out of band high frequency noise or oscillation at the audio outputs.

What do you mean?  Can you explain more what noise your talking about and how it might be addressed?

[KingRex]

Our of my league.  Like I said before.  I have tried and at times errored, but also had some great success.