Does a DAC need a pre-amp

[Speed Racer]

My experience is that a quality active preamp sounds better than no preamp or a passive preamp.  

[Speed Racer]

26 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Looks sexy, no argument! It's a bit less impressive if you consider that a straight wire between a DAC with a digital volume control and the amp can do a better job. 

 

 

That is just plain incorrect. But you keep thinking that.......

[Speed Racer]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Prove me wrong.

 

 

All of my experience proves you wrong......

[Speed Racer]

1 minute ago, gmgraves said:

You are misinterpreting what you have experienced*.

 

Hold on there. You don't get to tell me that I am misinterpreting my experience. Passive preamps have always sounded a bit flat to me...lifeless and boring.

[Speed Racer]

A passive preamp may very well measure better. But that does not mean it will sound better. That's like saying an amp that measures better is going to sound better which is so completely untrue.

[Speed Racer]

2 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

...I was merely stating a fact.

 

No, you are merely stating your opinion.

[Speed Racer]

Come on, George. This whole hobby is about sound quality, what sounds better, not what measures better.

[Speed Racer]

I could put a system together with very low distortion numbers that sounds like crap. I can put a system together with much higher distortion numbers that sounds sublime. 

[Speed Racer]

3 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

Again, I agree completely, but you keep missing (or seemingly missing) my point which was introduced purely as an academic aside.

 

No. You said that I am misinterpreting my experience. My "experience" said that passive preamps did not sound as good as active preamps. I never said anything about how they measure. How they measure is meaningless in regards to what I said.

[Speed Racer]

I have a preamp that is passive, has a JFET buffer, and has a tube gain stage. I have listened to all three extensively and massively prefer the tube gain stage setting. It is very easy to A/B/C the preamp. But it is in long term listening that I really prefer the tube gain stage.

[Speed Racer]

Class D amps? Yuk.....

[Speed Racer]

11 minutes ago, GUTB said:

I’m also running the Freya as a sort of stand-in until I find a high-end preamp. With GE 6SN7GTBs the tube stage is clearly preferable although the difference between it and the JFET isn’t that great.

 

Those GE tubes aren't very good....

 

I would take a hard look at the Don Sachs Model 2 line stage:

 

http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/custom line stage.html

 

I'll have mine in a couple of weeks.

[Speed Racer]

4 minutes ago, zackthedog said:

 

Okay, I have to take issue there.  The GE 6SN7GTA/B from c. 1950-65 is an extremely well-made tube, far better IMO than just about any current manufacture 6SN7, and that includes the expensive Chinese types.  The manufacturing quality is very consistent, plate matching is extremely good, microphonics are almost non-existent, and the sound is smooth and balanced from top to bottom.

 

There are a lot of fine vintage 6SN7s but to say that the GE's "aren't very good" betrays a lack of experience with them, IMHO.

 

It may be a well made tube....but it is pedestrian sounding. I much prefer the VT-231 tubes from 40's made by Sylvania, Raytheon, RCA, and Ken-Rad.

[Speed Racer]

21 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

both gutb and speedracer both always talk like if we don't have what they have, then everything else is garbage...i may ask "simplistic questions", but i never pass off their garbage posts...they are so full of themselves, and i wouldn't want either of their systems if i had their same budget....

 

Not true. I don't care if you have what I have. Heck, there is a lot better stuff out there than what I have. I just can't afford it.

[Speed Racer]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

 

There is likely stuff out there that is equal or better than what you have for less too...

 

 

My equipment list in my signature. Provide examples please.... 

[Speed Racer]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

My point is, that everyone would like to think they make well informed decisions, so you should think twice about talking negatively about others equipment.

 

I have looked at your signature, and i would probably not buy any of it...starting with the pcm schiit...but i don't want to take my time to tell others that I don't like what they buy.

 

What you buy, may sound perfectly great to you for your genre and your tastes, that doesn't mean that is the only solution.

 

 

If there is one thing you can be guaranteed to get from me is my honest opinion. If I don't like something I will say so. If I like something I will say so.

 

I don't care if you like or dislike what is in my signature. I have my own tastes and priorities.

[Speed Racer]

2 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Then why did you ask for examples?

 

I am just showing you how you sound to others....i don't typically talk like that, but that is how you sound.  I saw Chris told you to tone it down too...that should be a good hint that the way you speak to others isn't appreciated.

 

Dude.....you need to back off.

[Speed Racer]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Will you do a comparison thread?

 

On the tubes or the preamps?

[Speed Racer]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Maggies...

 

I listened to Maggies.....and I like the speakers I have a quite a bit better.

[Speed Racer]

52 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

I don't think that I can fit any more angels on the head of this particular pin. I'm through with this "debate". See you at our next encounter. 

 

You start out with one argument and then pivot to one we weren't even having. You must be trying to fit angels on the head of a pin..... 

[Speed Racer]

13 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

My good friend. I didn't start out with any argument at all! I merely stated that adding more active stages (as in a pre-amp) to an audio system adds distortion because no active electronics are distortion free. There is no such thing as Stewart Hegeman's mythical "straight wire with gain"*. I never stated nor intimated. that a system couldn't still sound better with a preamp than without one. Several times, I recall agreeing with you that I'd rather have a system with a preamp than without one. But you kept arguing with me anyway.

 

*That's not actually 100% accurate. There is a British "pre-amp" that uses a pair of  auto-transformers to provide gain, and the transformers are tapped to provide a stepped volume control. I don't remember the brand, but this device offers gain without adding noise or distortion because that's the nature of transformers. So technically, such a device could be considered a "wire with gain" if not actually a "straight" wire! Because the inputs are isolated from the output, the load to the power amp is constant. I don't really know if this theoretical advantage translates into a practical sonic advantage or not, but harmonic and IM distortion added by such a device should be , essentially, nonexistent. 

 

That is not accurate. I said (complete quote):

 

"My experience is that a quality active preamp sounds better than no preamp or a passive preamp."

 

You came back with:

 

"You are misinterpreting what you have experienced*." 

 

An then you went on with this:

 

"Every active stage adds distortion."

 

So you did not "merely state" that active preamps add distortion. You said I was misinterpreting what I have experienced. Since my interpretation said that "a quality active preamp sounds better than no preamp or a passive preamp", you must be saying that is not the case. That a quality active preamp does NOT sound better than no preamp or a passive preamp.

 

Own up to what you write......

[Speed Racer]

7 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

no, you didn't explicitly state prices; instead, you listed a set of high-priced vs. low-priced items thereby implicitly invoking price

 

He could have been implicitly invoking quality which, by the way, is often more expensive. In other words, your making an assumption that cannot be proven.