Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[Bernstein]

22 minutes ago, Blade1001 said:

 

Well, I've finally just completed a week long home audition of the Dutch & Dutch 8c' to be able to compare with my previous home audition of the Kii Three's, so I thought I'd answer the same question I asked of you.

 

I didn't have as much free time with the Kii Three loaners as I would have liked, so I only used OTB settings tweaked a little using the Control unit. With the 8c's I had more time to EQ them in properly, and my REW measurements came out pretty much exactly the same as yours by the time I'd dialled them in.

 

Subjectively I think I preferred the Kii's by quite a substantial margin.

 

For me on the 8c's it just seems that the leading edge of sounds are not as distinct, and are somehow slightly rounded off. Boosting the treble controls by a couple of dB helped, but sounded more of an artificial enhancement. On the Kii's there was so much more of the clarity and resolution to individual notes and sounds that I was used to with my outgoing Salon 2's.

 

On the 8c's the whole sound stage is more homogenous, and less clearly defined. With the Kii's I could clearly identify instrument placement left or right of centre by varying degrees of placement, and even well out beyond the speakers themselves - there was just so much three dimensional resolution. With the 8c's instruments are either approximately centre, or tied more closely to either speaker, and have much less of that sense of three dimensional space. I have read others describe the Kii's as more 'holographic' and the 8c's as producing more a 'wall of sound', and I think those are pretty fair descriptions to what I experienced in my room.

 

Also for me, the 8c's just didn't have the bass definition. When I first set the Kii's up, it was immediately clear that I was listening to a very different design, the upper bass in particular was dramatically tight, punchy and controlled in my room, far more than my Salon 2's could achieve - it was a bit of a jaw drop moment if I'm honest. The 8'c just couldn't couldn't do that, no matter their position, combination of settings or EQ used. In their defence the 8C's seemed to have a more prodigious 'quantity' and depth of bass available (certainly in my room it took a fair bit of taming) but the quality of that bass was much the same as other standard speakers I've used.

 

This is not to take anything away from the 8c's as such - given the high quality of sound they can achieve in and of themselves, and their set-up flexibility, they surely outclass traditional hi-fi systems of much higher cost, but for me personally, they just couldn't match the Kii's, and whats more I sent the Kii's back feeling that with more set-up time, I could have got even more out of them.

 

So, its a pair of Kii Three's for me.

 

 

Congrats! Had the same „challenge“, observations and decision. Welcome to the family 😂👌

[Bernstein]

I have a completely different topic: My KII were send out last week to my dealer and aren't there yet. Is it normal to count hours and minutes awaiting the KII? Just feeling emotional sickness...

Any advise and relief is welcome! 

 

😄 

[Bernstein]

10 minutes ago, TheStupidOne said:

A year from now, you'll fail to understand what the fuzz you made was all about while you consider the BXT to be the only drug in the world that can make you happy again. You'll hate the Kiis for not having been born with the BXT in the first place and you will not understand how you could ever think you would be happy with those little shoe-boxes.

 

Does that help? 😁

 

Of course, I kid. I think. Maybe. Do I?... Yep, it's normal. What's even weirder is that you will count the hours and minutes left of your vacations in the future just dying to get back home to the glorious sound you're used to.

Big mistake buying the Kiis, you'll hate every minute away from them. 

Helpful? Hey, I'm trying!

 

Sounds funny,  awesome and (yet for me now) unreal! Thanks! 😂

 

Sometimes I act like my little daughter and not being a good example how to behave PATIENT. 

 

When do you order your BXT to achieve inner peace?✌🏿 

[Bernstein]

https://tidal.com/playlist/50cb1ee8-9b05-4447-8264-66fdbc6a56eb

 

new „fall“ playlist from KII in Tidal  @baconbrain 

[Bernstein]

10 hours ago, baconbrain said:

 

They are in:

 

https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/768432eb-b8ba-4a1d-b90a-a4c9a9ba8d85

 

Lots of content to enjoy! It is now growing to a size that we may want to think about putting them in some type of order, thoughts?

Hmmm...

I would maybe group the genres in the sequence or split the playlist in different Genres (which could be difficult) as separate playlists. Though keep it chaotic as it is has also charm...

[Bernstein]

10 hours ago, baconbrain said:

 

They are in:

 

https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/768432eb-b8ba-4a1d-b90a-a4c9a9ba8d85

 

Lots of content to enjoy! It is now growing to a size that we may want to think about putting them in some type of order, thoughts?

Hmmm...

I would maybe group the genres in the sequence or split the playlist in different Genres (which could be difficult) as separate playlists. Though keep it chaotic as it is has also charm...

[Bernstein]

1 hour ago, Blade1001 said:

Thanks guys. The reason for the question is I’m making my own stands (I run a metal fabrication company so it’s easy to arrange) and I was thinking of having the top plate completely covered with neoprene foam where it touches the underside of the speaker - so in effect almost the entire metal underside of the speaker would be covered. 

 

However looking at the photo of the stock frame, the rubber seal is in strips, presumably to leave a small air gap, so I’d better do the same.

 

I may use some sorbothane strips as they should tack to the base of the speakers to help grip them, and also provide a little damping.

In the BXT solution there are two high density and quality plastic parts holding the Three and BXT together. This so called „BXT slide attachment“. There is no air between the Three and BXT. So I would expect no thermal issues. 

 

Please see here

 

[Bernstein]

I have my KIIs now for a couple of days and am very impressed by them. I am still experimenting with the toe in etc. Any best practices are welcome. 
 

What struggle me is the height of the soundstage. The depth is superb, but the height could be higher - especially compared with the D&D (in my memory). Don’t get me wrong: the D&D drawed everything bigger, which was nice in the beginning but unnatural after some hours (a guitar is double or more times bigger than with the KIIs what was unnatural for me, also voices). Wall of sound so to speak, but less depth. 
 

What I experienced was, that it also highly depends on the recording: with Summertime (Fitzgerald & Armstrong) you have a natural height of the voices, also with some violin recordings. Other recordings puts the singer straight in the

middle between the tweeters like they are sitting. Is it the recording? Is it the placement? 
 

Best practices are welcome! 

[Bernstein]

3 hours ago, Blade1001 said:

 

To be honest I think you’ve answered your own question at the start of that paragraph. If the perception of height changes with the recording, it would suggest your system is accurately portraying the recording height as it was intended.

 

If you’re looking to alter the average perceived height in general, then physically raising the speakers would seem the answer.

I toed them in and this was one part of the equation: the soundstage becomes small when doing this...everything gets a little smaller. I just have them parallel to the front wall: wider soundstage, more height...but I need experimenting...

 

any best practices/experience with toe in?

[Bernstein]

3 hours ago, input username here said:

 

My setup is different than most: I'm using my THREEs as desktop monitor speakers.  That said, I had issues similar to Bernstein, with image height not only too low, but also "squeezed down" in the vertical plane.   I raked the speakers back considerably on the stands and now the mid-point between the tweeter and woofer converges considerably above my head... I thought they sounded great this way! 

 

But, since everyone (including Kii) says that your ears ought to be even with the mid-point between the tweeter and woofer, I adjusted them down (and back up and back down) and experimented a lot with rake angle.  In the end, I ended up almost exactly where I started: with my ears about even with the bottoms of the physical woofers and the mid-point between the tweeter and woofer, accounting for rake, converging perhaps 12-16 inches over my head.   

 

I am not saying that this is the right set-up for everyone, esp. for those who are not listening at a desk in the extreme near-field.  But I can 100% say: 1. Like Bernstein, I had image height issues; 2. The THREEs are extremely sensitive to ear-level/rake; 3. The best solution in my situation and to my ears have the speakers elevated (again, by angle, not by absolute height) considerably higher than Kii recommends.

 

My advice to you Bernstein: give this solution a try.  If it sucks, lower the rake angle again... the experiment is literally free!

Thanks a lot sharing your experience. 
Interesting: I have to see how to achieve this with the stands. Everything is also linked to the stand height (70cm?), my couch and my 1.73m height. If I sit lower than normal, the sound gets smaller. If I sit on tweeter level or higher, the sound gets higher (a pillow helped). 
So how do I rake it using the stands spikes below...I don’t want to put something between the top plate and the KII due to my little daughter and the risk of accidents. Any tips?

[Bernstein]

@mitchco

Sorry to bother you, but your a room expert  

What is your proposal and experience for the KII Setup (Height, rake, toe in etc). 

[Bernstein]

1 minute ago, input username here said:

 

Don‘t worry: I will try everything out! Every thought is valuable. Limitation is only my stand, which I won’t (can’t) abandon at all  

 

@mitchco Does the soundstage get smaller in such a triangular setup with tweeters aligned to the ears? 

[Bernstein]

2 hours ago, input username here said:

 

Haha.  When I get the chance, I'll drop a note to the US importer, Grace Design, and ask them what's the deal.  Thanks for the heads up.

Newly posted by KII Audio...I think we have a well hidden KII guy watching us  

[Bernstein]

2 hours ago, input username here said:

 

I love the red.  I've said it before: the only thing I regret about buying my Kii THREEs was getting the boring, base grey.  I'd really like a do-over on that decision.   Still curious about vibration issues and how you're supposed to anchor to a drywall wall.  I'll post back if/when I learn any more. 

Baton Rogue is very appealing...couldn’t convince my wife though. But her argument about „longevity“ in living with such a vibrant color makes sense. 

[Bernstein]

On 9/23/2019 at 8:07 PM, mitchco said:

 

Not sure how to answer that as I am following industry guidelines for monitoring music production. A couple of examples are: EBU Tech 3276-1998 Listening conditions for sound programme material

and 

Recommendation ITU-R BS.1116-3 (02/2015) Methods for the subjective assessment of small impairments in audio systems.

 

There are others, but other than the frequency response target and that the monitors are not elevated to accommodate a control room window to the studio, this is how most music is recorded, mixed and mastered, using these guidelines for room setup. The guidelines should be updated based on the work of Sean Olive and Floyd Toole have done showing peoples preference for a more neutral response as per one of my posts above.

 

So if the goal is to reproduce as closely as possible to what was heard in the studio (or venue or concert hall or whatever) by the artists, producers and engineers, I would follow the guidelines. If not, then anything goes 🙂 There is no right or wrong.

 

Every system I have set up or worked on, whether pro or home, I use the equilateral triangle and follow the guidelines. The soundstage always sounds right to me, with a solid phantom center. But that's my preference. I can't listen to speakers that point straight ahead or the triangle is too wide or narrow or the LP is too close or too far from the speakers. In all of those cases, the soundstage does not sound right to me. But again, that's my personal preference to align with industry guidelines. For others, likely different and in some case very different, but I would not argue with anyone's preference if it is different than mine.

 

I don't know the details of your setup to say one way or another, other than to say there is an industry "best practice" that I follow,. It may not be your preference.

Thanks a lot! Now I understood my issue: Head distance to back wall. I am sitting too near to it, because our couch is next to it. After going more towards the speaker everything changed. Now added a pillow: 70cm from ear to back wall...over 1m would be better. After coming to 70cm the soundstage was higher and deeper. I also adjusted the speaker according to your description and reference with a laser. It’s like the sound hugs you  

This week I need to look for a suitable Diffusor behind my head - going more far than 70cm is not workable. 
Anything special I need to consider for a diffusor for the head area underneath the picture?

[Bernstein]

3 minutes ago, TheStupidOne said:

You shouldn't go for diffusors directly behind your head in this case. Diffusors need some distance to properly create a diffuse sound field, typically above 1-2 meters at least. I have the same kind of placement and have chosen RPG Absorbors. I'd recommend the Broadsorbors 4 inch with a photo print because it's the best on the market.

 

Here's my absorbors on the concrete wall;

 

You are totally right! At least 1m distance. I have 70cm with the additional pillow. 
I have a dealer here for professional studios. I will visit him and discuss the specifics...If I could sit at least 1m away the wall  

PS: Placement of your elements would cause trouble in my household  Printed ones are nice 👍🏿 but I already heavily invested in the shown canvas from maple wood and fine print  

Something around the head area (beneath the canvas) is what I am looking for. 

[Bernstein]

3 hours ago, firedog said:

GIK and some of the other vendors will print your artwork on the acoustic panels. Basically you send them a high quality photo, and they print it on the panel. 

I suggested to put some nice absorber (wooden or with fabric) surrounding our canvas to my wife (or at least on ear level). She smiled and threaded me to paint my white KII with black Edding. That’s blackmailing! 😐😐😐

 

I will go to the store this week and look for (very) nice alternatives or temporary ones, which I will store underneath the couch...🤪

PS: There is some black humor in it though 😂😂😂 

[Bernstein]

6 hours ago, Blade1001 said:

 

You would ideally need to be more than 1m away from a diffuser for it to worktop properly. You need to be a minimum of one full wavelength from the lowest frequency you want to diffuse. So for 250Hz for example, you would need to be a minimum of 1370mm away, for 125Hz, you'd want to be 2740mm away.  Those are also minimum requirements, so in ideal terms you'd want to add a percentage onto that.

 

An absorber will remove the majority of the reflection completely. A simple 3-4" absorber running along the length of your sofa, and up to the underside of your existing canvases will do it (I assume that would place the top of it above head height?). You can pick an AT fabric that matches either your sofa fabric, or your wall colour, if you want it to blend in as much as possible. They can probably also add a 45 degree chamfer to all sides of the absorber so its a little less obvious also.

I think that’s the way to go! I will try what I will find. 

[Bernstein]

10 minutes ago, Blade1001 said:

 

If you want to try getting permission for something more wife friendly, companies like Artnovion (https://www.artnovion.com/) have some very nice looking designer panels.

 

 

 

 

My dealer here has them in portfolio...but I think it will be something temporary which I attach and remove after listening...

[Bernstein]

4 minutes ago, Blade1001 said:

 

In that case I guess you could have a panel that you can store behind your sofa, and pull it up and prop it on the solid rear back of your sofa behind the cushions when needed.

 

You could DIY it with a 3-4" rock wool or rigid fibre glass panel, wrapped in polyester webbing (to keep fibres from escaping) and wrapped in an AT fabric of choice.

I love this forum! This is the BEST IDEA!!!

maybe I could do something with a sliding mechanism to slide it out and slide it in after listening. That could work!!! Appearance is then not so important and after listening I could slide it in...practical!!! 
so: who will be built me something like that...hopefully my dealer has an answer to it. Or I can buy a wide Absorber and store it as you proposed behind the sofa. Sliding mechanism is more sexy though...

[Bernstein]

Hi guys,

 

I have the KIIs at home since a week and hear sometimes a ping or click noise (once) during warmup or cooldown of the KIIs. I mean I also sometimes experienced this with amps and other devices and I think due to the construction of the KIIs (plastic combined with metal parts with different thermal expansion rate + Metal Parts which also act as heatsinks and get hot) this should be normal and shouldn’t worry me. It happens on both so...

But it does worry me (I am a emotional 😭 guy and sometimes irrational) and sometimes to hear from someone else that this is normal can help to have peace of mind  

[Bernstein]

1 minute ago, Saburo said:

 

there were reports of a clicking sound (electronic) audible w/o signal or during soft passages, not related to thermal heat expansion/contraction or anything mechanical. the culprit was software based and audible. Anyone else experienced or heard of this?

Mine is I think thermal...regarding the other noise: sometimes Roon also can play games  or a SW update can help. 

[Bernstein]

7 minutes ago, firedog said:

Again, if it's only during boot up or cool down I don't think it is unusual or meaningful. If it isn't happening for you, why worry about a situation that doesn't exist?

And if your speakers have just been serviced and need to be again, then your dealer should get you some kind of loaner. 

It happens only in warm up/cool down I think And not everytime (depends I suppose on the volume you drive them and how fast they heat up). And it is thermal (metal expanding). Sound is clear as hell  

 

[Bernstein]

Just now, Blade1001 said:

 

Does the sound come from the speakers drivers themselves, or from the cabinet?

Cabinet. Experienced it also from near. Sometimes very low in noise, sometimes louder. „Metal pling“. Only happens once on each loudspeaker I think. 
 

Doesn't it happen with yours? I hear it, when listening at night with low volume. When playing normal volumes or louder, it doesn't matter

[Bernstein]

I only have them on while listening and turn them off after. I mean it doesn’t happen everytime (or I don’t hear it everytime), but it happens. But if it happens once, then it doesn’t appear again (even over hours of use e.g. 6-8). Only then in cool down after turning them off, but also not reliable: sometime it happens and sometimes not. In studio environment they keep the KII on all the time, so it wouldn’t be noticeable even if it happens once. 
 

PS: I am the pickiest guy I ever encountered....😐