Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

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@Fella55 I'll copy in my post from a few pages back to help explain what @Kilauea50 means. Miska recommends turning enabling Distortion Compensation and using the Fast Rolloff filter, but note my last paragraph: Distortion Compensation works at all times, however the filters do not work during MQA playback per Meridian licensing requirements.

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The Audio Quality menu has three possible settings: "Best", "Test", and "User".

• "Best" is the way John Westlake, the designer of this DAC, likes the sound: Distortion Compensation is disabled and the filter is Optimal Transient.
• "Test" matches the best results from John's test lab instruments: Distortion Compensation is enabled and the filter is Brickwall.
• "User" will be displayed if you go into the menus to individually adjust those options yourself.

Distortion Compensation works in MQA mode and I leave it on at all times, however the filters are disabled during MQA playback.

[left channel]

@Fella55 when you change something in another menu, then if you go back and look at Audio Quality it will display "User". Miska recommends turning Distortion Compensation on and setting the filter to Fast Rolloff.  After you do that you'll see "User" if you look. (I leave Distortion Compensation on at all times, but as I said the filters are disabled during MQA playback per Meridian licensing rules.)

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@Fella55 no worries, if this stuff just worked we'd have nothing to talk about here. (Oh wait... we'd talk about music.  :-)

 

Looking forward to hearing whether you still get MQA dropouts! 

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21 minutes ago, Fella55 said:

Silly question... If i play an MQA file and then back to a regular file, I assume the previously selected filter (Fast Roll Off) and Distortion compensation will be reinstated at that point?

 

Not a silly question at all, since the bug fix we're waiting for concerns exactly that. Distortion Compensation never turns off, and the filters do come back inline when you go back to a non-MQA file. But right now in 2.12, when when we have the Optimal Transient filter selected something goes wrong when playing an MQA file and then a regular file, resulting in poor thin-sounding playback. I do not hear the same problem with Fast Rolloff, and have not tested the others. When this problem occurs you can fix it by changing the filter (to the next one, or all the way back round to the original).

[left channel]

@Fella55 looks great, kid mess and all. Hope to hear you no longer have MQA dropouts. I don't have Roon so can't test that.

 

On a positive note, I recently purchased a Logitech Squeezebox Touch on eBay. It's in new condition but the sound was terrible - very rough highs and lows - so I connected my Pre Box S2 Digital to the coaxial output and that cleared it right up.

 

Clearly streamers have advanced a great deal in the last several years — I have LMS on a microJukebox serving an ultraRendu as well as computers and handheld devices around the house, and those all sound great — but decided to add the Touch as a visitor-friendly stoopid-simple solution in the basement. The amp is a very loud Marshall Stanmore active speaker that also plugs into or pairs with whatever phone or tablet visitors may have in their pockets.

 

I will try upgrading the Touch power supply, and if I still need an external DAC I'll look for one more appropriately priced for this situation, but for now the little S2 has saved the day. My sound signature preferences aside, as I've said from the beginning it's a competent little performer that punches well above its weight class.

 

 

Hidden behind the amp,  where random guests can't get to it:

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7 minutes ago, firedog said:

SBT should sound okay to good, but not great. Certainly not be something you wouldn't be willing to listen to. Must be something not right with yours. 

 

Thanks, I'll keep you posted as I upgrade the power supply, and maybe I'll also grab another another used Touch off eBay for comparison and for eventual use in the kitchen. I should probably start another thread when I do that, and will alert you.

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29 minutes ago, Fella55 said:

I have so many potential upgrades. I'm using the standard power supplies for both the NUC and S2, plus I'm using an Amazon Basics USB cable  !

 

Still, I wanted this setup as a proof of concept so didn't want to break the bank initially. If it works out I've plenty of scope to improve the setup. 

 

Which would you upgrade first? PSUs or USB cable? Or add something like a jitterbug or something more substantial like an ifi iUSB3.0? Alternatively there as NAA's like Sonore and SOtM but I see this as a longer term goal. 

 

A PSU first, for the largest potential improvement. The designer of this product recommends linear or battery PSUs only. An anti-jitter acessory second. A USB cable only if there's something wrong with the Amazon one IMHO.  SOtM and Sonore streamers are little computers with their own quirks and personalities, amazing products but only worth the time and trouble for remote setups, again IMHO.

[left channel]

@Fella55 thanks for the report! Glad to have some good news during this frustrating time awaiting the next firmware update. That's all I want to do at this point too: forget about the hardware and enjoy the music!

The HDPLEX power supply looks like a great value, but I have no opinion beyond saying external power is good and external linear power is better than what you'll get out of most switching PSUs. Looking forward to seeing your report if you the HDPLEX 200W.

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3 hours ago, fgribas said:

Thank your for you report guys. At least 2 other users from another forum confirmed the same problem.

 

But I have some good news!

 

1- Pro-ject support kindly helped me to fix that. I have contacted them through the support site using Bermuda as my country (thanks @left channel for the tip!) They answered my message 15 hours later with the solution. Much better than my expectations.

 

2- It's not a firmware bug nor a hardware problem. I was another victim of the misleading user manual. The thing is that we need to push the volume knob to confirm the selection of the Distortion Compensate setting. I was changing the setting and pressing Menu again.

 

I replied them saying that an update to the user manual would be nice, as I was not the only one that faced that problem. I indeed remember someone posting about the misleading user interaction with the configuration menus some time ago. 

 

The sound I get from this DAC is amazing, specially by upsampling to DSD512 with HQPlayer. Great price/performance ratio!

 

@fgribas thanks for the report! Apparently some of us pushed the volume in to confirm our Distortion Compensation settings, some didn't, and it's all trial-and-error because as you point out manual says nothing about that.

The manual needs a lot of work. All they've done so far is remove the out-of-date DSD playback section, without updating the separate "Computerconfiguration for DSD playback" PDF on the product web page. That one still contains old and incorrect instructions.

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@Fella55 I'm told that based on verifiable measurements there is no audible difference between DoP and native DSD. I certainly can't hear a difference myself. Your results depend on how well Roon has implemented this feature, of course.

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@Rocky Bennett looking forward to that discussion. IMHO the product is 99% ready, and although Pro-Ject seems only 50% ready to support anything like it, you'll be fine with the help you'll get here on this forum. As you've doubtless read here, you should update to the latest firmware (PM me for that), don't use the Optimal Transient filter in 2.12, and add an external PSU. Then with a mainstream setup, you ought to be able to sit back and enjoy the music. If you want to push the technical envelope of platforms, formats, upsampling, and etc. further into territory where Pro-Ject may never go, I'm sure others here on this forum will be happy to help with that too.

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Just now, Jamesroy said:

How do I get out of this post. I tried the button at top "Ignore this post" but still getting replies?

 

 

@The Computer Audiophile can you please help him?

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Are all digital volume controls weird, or just the one on this product, or even just my unit? I've mentioned this before but nobody else has, so I'm wondering. Sometimes when I turn the volume knob, nothing happens for a few notches (the little clicks or detents you feel when you turn it). No change in sound or display for at least three of those. After that, now that it is "awake", the same few clicks will immediately change the volume. But turning back the other way may require extra clicks. And after not being turned for a while, it's back to requiring at least three extra clicks in either direction. It's really strange.

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16 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

These measurements seem to show similar jitter performance between SPDIF and USB:

 

https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-pro-ject-pre-box-s2-digital.2370/

 

Different measuring equipment and methods I'm assuming.

 

 

I was just paging through that... I am confused by Amir's results. I don't doubt his sincerity but he hasn't tested all configurations, his results with Distortion Compensation are the opposite of @Miska's and his results with external USB power contradict what many of us have reported hearing.

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Pro-Ject has finally posted a Mac firmware updater! I only know about this thanks to an alert member of the pinkfish forum who is on the Pro-Ject dealer mailing list.  Scroll down here: http://www.box-designs.com/main.php?prod=preboxs2digital&cat=default&lang=en

The 2.12 firmware is back up there now too. That's good. Taking it down was a mistake. I don't know if they've also posted instructions on how to use the Mac updater — maybe instructions are in the .dmg file — but the separate instructions PDF on that web page is corrupted. Sigh. We're trying to let them know. I'm all WinDoze and Ubuntu here, so I haven't opened the image file. Anyone want to try this and let us know?

 

I've also added the Mac updater to my download folder, but hopefully I won't be needed for this much longer.

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28 minutes ago, sebassie said:

The Mac updater does not recognise the S2 so is useless as it is now!

 

Second report I've seen so far. Sigh. Or was that you on pinkfish too? I appreciate the Queen's spelling of "recognise". :-)  Edit: Ah. And your avatar here matches the screen name there. Got it.

 

[left channel]

Sigh. @Nihilnisibene thanks. Please report that to Pro-Ject through your dealer if you can, or directly.

[left channel]

Thanks @Nihilnisibene. If the response tells you to contact them through the website, note that your messages will go to a local dealer unless you select as your location a country that has no dealers. Like Bermuda.

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24 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Very true. Although I like the Facebook channel. Perhaps applies a little more pressure with more eyes watching, in the case of bug fixes etc.

 

Yes, especially since their "tech support" is the same PR/marketing staff in charge of the Facebook page. Maybe even the same one guy.

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:-) I know what you meant. It's frustrating though: they want their dealers to support this product, as with previous products. But neither the dealers nor anyone we can contact at Pro-Ject HQ seem ready to do that.

[left channel]

42 minutes ago, 57gold said:

If one plans to attach to PC with USB, can one use a LPS with this unit?  Or must it be powered by the PC?  Manual seems to indicate this.

 

Thanks.

 

The manual doesn't tell the whole story. When you plug in an external PSU, the power input automatically switches away from USB. Most of us have found this improves USB performance. As the manual says the designer of this DAC, John Westlake, doesn't recommend using the supplied PSU or any switching PSU when you're on USB input, but he does recommend using an external linear or battery PSU in that mode, and he designed in support for doing so.

 

Apparently the manual writer didn't get the memo so that feature is not documented, but there you have it direct from the man who designed it. Some of us have perceived good results with the stock wall-wart or other switching PSUs anyway (like the iFi iPower), but in the end most of us have moved on to linear supplies ranging from simple wall-warts to the UpTone UltraCap and beyond. A purpose-built battery PSU would be good too.

 

Pro-Ject recently announced one of each for the fall: the PowerBox S2 (linear PSU) and the AccuBox S2 USB (battery PSU).

[left channel]

 

16 minutes ago, 57gold said:

Wonder if a USB without power would function and possibly reduce noise?

 

In measurements and subjective listening it's generally been found that using an external PSU gives the largest improvement, while improving the USB power and/or signal offers a much smaller benefit. 

 

At least one user tried making a USB cable that removes USB power entirely, and as I recall that caused problems. I believe the device still needs to sense at least some power there to know a USB signal is coming in.

 

16 minutes ago, 57gold said:

My son digs the B+ but is kind of a frugal guy...so the S2 plus an $80 LPS would be in his comfort zone.

 

If this S2 is in your son's comfort zone but he likes the B+, you folks may also want to take a look at the recently-announced Mytek Liberty.

[left channel]

4 minutes ago, GromitInWA said:

I use my S2 with a Raspberry Pi. Right now, it just uses USB power from the RasPi that uses its standard SMPS. If I go with a separate LPS, presumably I would connect it to the S2 rather than to the RasPi?

 

Yes, and I'm sure the RasPi's power supply could be improved too. Some LPS models will power both, though I would keep them separate. There are plenty of cheap 2.1mm-to-microUSB adapters out there so you have many choices for the S2.

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3 hours ago, 57gold said:

S2 has more technology than the Liberty...and my son has grown up with devices (mandatory laptop in 5th grade), studied advanced math at U and writes code for commodity trading as part of job.  

 

So, the S2 with fancy chips, MQA, accepts high sample rates...a techie barrel of monkeys for not a lot of $s.

 

They both do MQA, but yes, the Liberty lacks a full information display, goes a notch lower on DSD and USB PCM, and uses one ESS9018K2M chip instead of dual ESS9038Q2M chips. Having said that, I am looking forward to hearing how their sound compares, along with comparison of build/parts/firmware quality and overall support. I am not planning to be the guinea pig this time though. ;-)

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16 hours ago, exdmd said:

Torq over at SBAF is doing a full review of the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 and found with firmware 2.12 there are a few bugs:

 

 

 

Thanks, I enjoyed that, especially his expert use of a capacitive caliper. :-) But in his last post about the firmware, he's actually missing the post-MQA filter bug that caused Pro-Ject to mistakenly withdraw 2.12 for a few weeks. I've messaged him about that, and also offered some clarification on the issues he listed.

 

The problem with settings not being saved turned out to be, for all or most users, not pressing in the volume knob to confirm their selection. This is not documented in the user manual. The Pro-Ject support manager has acknowledged this and apologized. Only one user who posted about settings being saved has not replied since to confirm that was the only problem; he may have returned his unit.

 

I also commented on his other two points. I'll watch for his response and let you know.