More Disruptive Schiit (Vidar)

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7 hours ago, unbalanced output said:

 

Tekton site tells me these are 98dB speakers you have - that's horn-like sensitivity. They should as well work with a 1 wpc amplifier, so...? 

 

 

I have never seen a sensitivity measurement of a Tekton speaker that did not come in a minimum of 3db below their own advertised specs.  This one done by Stereophile comes in a full 6 db less:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/tekton-design-enzo-xl-loudspeaker-measurements

 

That said I appreciate what they are trying to do in the market - just wish they would stifle the exaggerated sales pitch a bit...

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Just now, Speed Racer said:

What tubes are you going to use in Freya?

 

This is important.  Stock tubes will be immediately replaced by any "audiophile".  My Saga came with a russian tube that sounded so bad I would have preferred a $300 AVR from Best Buy...

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1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I'll start with the stock tubes.

 

At the very least, move on to the modern production "Tung-Sol" and the like (even if you don't go down the rabbit hole of NOS).

 

Schiit sends very substandard tubes - understandable given the price point but not really realistic in a Hi Fi context...

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14 minutes ago, Paddlefoot said:

Chris if you could..please do a review on the stock system that you receive first, with the tubes that where sent to you, so people will have a base line of what the system sounds like. People at the shows.. that I`ve read love the sound of both the Freya and Saga with the stock tubes with the Vidar. just my 2 cents, you would be doing your readers and potential customers a great service by doing so. Greg

 

Based on this thread:

 

It is evident that the low cost (bad NOS stock from soviet days I understand) tubes Schiit sends out are very hit and miss.  The one that came with my Saga seemed particularly bad SQ wise.  If I recall correctly, Abtr's sounded better but had a snap-crackly-pop problem.  Other people reported that they were not all that bad (but I don't think anyone would argue against the fact that they have their limits).

 

Other reviewers tend to devote a few sentences to the stock tubes of many of these products, simply noting something like "you will want to change them pretty quick" or the like.   It just seems part of the culture that the manufactures of tube gear in this price range send out tubes that really degrade the sound of their products.  I guess it is a result of what happens when you have to hit a certain price point.  VTL, Audio Research, and the like do send out tubes of the requisite quality where tube swapping is not a necessity...

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3 hours ago, esldude said:

RAM labs tubes are consistently good.

 

Thanks for posting this I was not aware of them.  However, they don't appear (unless I missed it) to offer a 6SN7 variant...

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1 hour ago, Puma Cat said:

 

 

Here's a pair of NOS GEs I would consider: 

https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/ge-6sn7gtb-1965-vintage

 

 

 

 

The early 1950's GE's are better...and my dad can beat up your dad

 

IMO, Chris would do better not getting into NOS and using modern production yet "audiophile" grade stuff instead.  This means China (at least with the 6SN7) like Sophia Electric (which in my experience is almost as good as even the best NOS), which I know many have an aversion to.  This way, his review could apply to everyone who reads it because everyone can get their hands on new production where as NOS can be a difficult scavenger hunt even for those who are in the know...

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3 minutes ago, Puma Cat said:

Yep, that stuff from the 50s was amazing. I just heard a dual-mono power amp at the CA Audio Show on Saturday that used twin 300Bs making all  of 18 WPC that sounded pretty darned wonderful. And yes, you're right it's a good bet to start out with the stock tubes, at least for time being.  I did roll a different than stock set of tubes into my Schiit Valhalla headphone amp, though. I know that getting NOS tubes is getting harder and harder everyday. I'm using Tung-Sol KT-120s as the power tubes for my C-J LP70S, and they are quite wonderful. 

 

Just a detail:  IMO (I know, everyone has one  ) Chris should start off with the "stock tubes" from Schiit which will be low grade (and low $) Soviet era 6SN7 (unless they have changed course) and then quickly move on to modern production like the Sophia Electric, or at least the modern Tung-sol which is available tested/matched from Upscale which you linked:

 

https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/tung-sol-6sn7gtb

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6 minutes ago, JSeymour said:

Don't forget the Increased sound stage, particularly depth.  But you need speakers that can take advantage of this. My Spatial M3 Triode Masters are open baffle so their sound stage is different than box speakers.  My speakers are toed in with the outer edge 58" and the inner edge 53" from the back wall.  They are 7.5 ft. apart.

 

At 16 ohm nominal, your speakers should (unless they have a nasty dip, particularly at frequency(s) with vigorous musical energy) never challenge the Vidar's 8 ohm nominal recommendation in mono mode.

 

However, most of us don't have such speakers...

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3 minutes ago, Hoang Nam said:

Thanks for the info, mine are Spendor A6, 8 Ohms

 

 

Well, Stereophile measured the D7 here:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/spendor-d7-loudspeaker-measurements

 

Even though it is nominally rated at 8 ohm by Spendor, to an amp I would argue it looks more like a 6 ohm speaker.  Of course, this is nothing new as Andrew Jones and others have argued manufactures regularly rate their speakers by...who knows what standard.

 

I just did a quick google search - you might spend some time and see if anyone has measured your A6's...

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8 minutes ago, Hoang Nam said:

If the A6's really 8 Ohms as they say, and I see their specs show the RMS output power is 200W, by running 2 Vidars is way too much power for the speakers? Coz running as mono the Vidars give 400w into 8 ohms.

 

Well, it depends how hard you turn the volume control - and even then it is much debated.

 

Most around here would say (at least I think they would - I would) that you would rather have too many watts than too few.  In the vast majority of cases, when a speaker is "blown" it is because a clipped, square wave was sent to the speaker - which means too few watts were involved.

 

I suppose that if you have a 200w RMS rated speaker and you purchase some mega-amp, and you consistently play at volume levels where the speaker is actually consistently getting more than 200 watts, then it would be a concern.  However, this would also mean you are deaf, using your speakers in an outdoor arena, or some other strange situation.

 

Fact is most of the time you are listening to your rig in a domestic situation your using less than a 1 watt, or a few at most.  In a very "dynamic" musical passage where say a 100 or 200 are actually needed, it is better to have a robust amp that is capable of delivering the current...

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10 minutes ago, Hoang Nam said:

I actually never turn the volume (my previous amp is Cambridge CXA80) up to 11 o'clock. I understand all that u said but just want to be reassured (coz I have never tried mono block at that much power)

 

Of course, 11 o'clock on one amp/pre amp is not the same as another.

 

To be objective, you will have to measure the SPL at your normal listening position, both an "average" and typical peak SPL.  Then you would have to have a reliable measurement of your speakers sensitivity and impedance curve, and then calculate the actual draw on the amp in watts.

 

Most of us just get a robust amp with more watts than we will theoretically need.  With most consumer speakers in the 85-88 db sensitivity range and most audiophile amps (tube amps are another discussion for various reasons) able to handle a real 4 ohm load and delivering plenty of watts, it is rarely an issue.  

 

As Chris reports the Vidar's are doing fine even though he has hooked up a 4ohm speaker to an 8 ohm nominal rated amp (in mono mode).  However, he even at "loud" domestic SPL's he probably (maybe) is not pushing the amps into the red zone...we will see when he reports more.

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Just now, Hoang Nam said:

So, 2 Vidars much better than just one?

 

The only sound bite answer possible is "it depends"...

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15 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

This begs the question: Did Schiit make a change in the Vidar or did you have two bad Vidar amps? I would be surprised to hear you happened to get two bad amps.

 

I suspect the answer is yes and no.  A "change" in that a similar part from one supplier that is not up to spec or simply not working out has already, this early in production, been swapped for another.  Is this a fundamental design change?  Not really.

 

I am coming to the conclusion that you don't want to purchase the first year of anything.  This is a well known axiom in the auto world - never buy the first year of a new model or fundamental design change of an existing one.  Indeed, I have personally suffered the consequences of breaking this rule myself.  Unless you are "ok" with being an early adopter that is....