How DOES the grounding boxes work?

[Cornan]

20 minutes ago, marce said:

Just wanted to check I hadn't missed that point... so ground loops are out antennas are in, I think I shall be contacting the ASA regarding UK adverts for these ground boxes.

 

Can you explain why ground loops are out due to the fact that it is one connection only? Is it far off to assume that tourmaline stones neutralize ground loops by negative charges?

[Cornan]

5 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

As I recall, your setup has multiple power supplies powering multiple devices. 

 

The grounding box may be identical to a ground lift. It is very possible that the alterations you make to your system in order to place the grounding box, may be what have the effect, rather than properties of the box itself.

 

Breaking ground loops would be a good explanation.

Thanks Jabbr! 

Right now I am using a floating SMPS (plugged into a floating IT) to power Brooklyn's 5v injection and Regen Amber simultaneously. Sounds great! I use to have separate battery power supplies for everything except my DAC/HPA that was plugged into a IT with a floating sec. The Entreq still improved SQ. 

Best spot in my setup is the Aqvox network switch for sure. I wish I knew why? 

[Cornan]

4 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

This system is complicated enough that any changes to the grounding connections could have an audible effect.

 

If you are looking for a scientific approach to how a "grounding box" works, you need to have the desire to disprove the "null hypothesis" and be willing to accept failure to do so. Look for explanations other than an intrinsic property of the box.

 

I have no problem accepting that a grounding box infact works as a kind of ground lift. The two have very similar if not the same improvements in general. It just feels like the grounding boxes does a "better job" cutting the GND than a proper removal does. Maybe that could be due to the fact that the GND wires are not lifted or that it "lifts the GND" in more than one place? ? 

[Cornan]

16 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Yes, of course agreed.  Didn't know in the course of doing the wiring to the grounding box(es?) if anything else was changed.  The box isn't connected to power or ground anywhere else in the system, is it, @Cornan?

 

My grounding box is connected to the GND screw in the back of my Aqvox switch-8, ie. not connected to power or ground. They could be connected to ground though, but can never replace ground.

[Cornan]

Quote

As for me, I suggested he take advantage of the free on-line physics lectures that MIT has made available.  It is a tremendously valuable, high-quality resource from one of the best institutions in the world.  How is that making fun of anything?

 

This would be fine if I asked about how physics works. In this thread I would like to hear thoughts and plausible ideas how grounding boxes might work. If you are 100% sure that they do not work I just see no point why you want to post anything at all.  

[Cornan]

Just now, NOMBEDES said:

I wish they did work I need a ground solution for one of my turntables.......

 

Stay tuned. I am planning to try it out eventually on my Ariston RD40 turntable! ?

[Cornan]

36 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

So what Bill is telling you with his excellent explanation is that you will get ground currents if you make a connection that is *part of a circuit.* If you connect a wire from one piece of equipment to another in the circuit, then the electrons (which are the current) have somewhere to go.  If you connect a wire to a box that itself isn’t connected to anything else, nowhere for the electrons/ground current to go: electrons don’t use “one-way streets,” only two-way.

 

I just commented what I quoted. I also liked the first part of the answer. I know ground currents need to return to the source. That is also what puzzles me when it comes to grounding boxes. IME they clearly enhance something. I am dying to find out what they do enhance rather than what it does'nt enhance and cannot do according to the laws of physics. It could as well be a double edged sword, where it just enhance more than it doesn't. The final result is for sure an improvement.  

[Cornan]

40 minutes ago, mansr said:

What makes you think grounding boxes are exempt from physics?

 

I don't! I just want to find out if we are missing a clue. Even if they are called grounding boxes they might just do something else that improves shieldings.

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Now you are just grabbing at straws......and you have yet to persuade me the difference you are hearing, if indeed you are hearing one, is a better sound. Sometimes people think added noise sounds better. This makes sense since you want the addition of the grounding box to improve sound quality.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this thread all about grabbing straws? So far the only straw you've showed up is your antenna idea. So, any idea how to test if your theory holds true? I have two grounding boxes (plus a DIY grounding box) and could make a test if I only got information how to put it to the test. 

[Cornan]

9 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

Maybe this paragraph from the pdf marce linked contains a clue?

 

"Many engineers treat ground planes as if they were made of a superconductor rather than copper and assume that, no matter the current flowing in them, every part of a ground plane is at the same potential. While such an assumption may be reasonable on PC cards bearing only logic circuitry (or it may not, if the logic is very fast), it can lead to unacceptably low performance in PC cards carrying high precision or high frequency analog circuitry."

 

It seems most assume all ground within a device is the same potential. I know I did. Maybe as described above these differences of potential within a given  ground system or ground plane are what these boxes are trying to manipulate?  Maybe the noise that's being picked up is somehow carrying current from the box back to the connection point, instead of the assumption that current is flowing from connection point to the box. Maybe what's inside the box facilitates this flow of current and is providing the source of it. This flow of current back to the connection point should change the potential of that point which may bring it closer to a more ideal level with respect to the rest of the ground plane/system. It seems having the entire ground plane at the same potential is a good thing. if these boxes are helping do this, then that could result in the sonic improvements some hear. Maybe that's why as Cornan stated, the boxes require some experimentation to find the best locations to use them. Maybe the "best" locations are those that have the greatest potential difference from the rest of the ground plane.

 

A lot of maybes for sure but who knows.

 

Interesting thoughts lasker98! Thanks for sharing! ?

 

[Cornan]

Quote

I never heard of grounding boxes before, so I clicked on this thread. What a hot topic, 11 pages in less than a day! Amazing.

 

I knew it was a hot subject when I started the thread, but even I was taken by surprise with the amounts of posts. I'll have to go back and re-read the posts later on, so I do not miss something important. I have'nt got all the time in the world to answer everyone. I've got kids at home to mind that couldn't care less about grounding boxes! ?

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, marce said:

Get a scope, stick a bit of wire in the input, look at the screen... 1st thing you do when playing with a scope for the first time, put an ungrouned lead in, grab the end and look at the screen, its fun and enlightening. Then you start probing everything.

When we are doing signal integrity we model scope leads so that we can add the loading to the simulation to get a truer picture (!) of what they will see on a scope with a probe. We can also see what the waveform looks like without a scope, So we simulate and work on the real waveform and use l probe loaded waveforms to confirm the results...

And as we are talking about GROUND heres how to measure the noise:

http://www.analog.com/media/en/analog-dialogue/raqs/groundNoiseMeasurement.pdf

 

Thanks for sharing marce! Is there a more simple way to see if the antenna theory is correct or not, without having to buy a scope? I was'nt really planning to get a lab for the job! ?

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, esldude said:

Not a bad idea.  To the OP.  Do you have a tuner?  Connect a wire from the antenna connection of the tuner to the jack on the Entreq.  See how well it works. 

 

If the hinted at principles of operation are in effect, the Entreq will ground and absorb any signals the tuner needs. 

 

Unfortunately I do not own a tuner. I'll guess I could check if any friends of mine own one though. If not Is it possible to measure it using a simple multimeter?

[Cornan]

5 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

There is a lot of back and forth. 

 

Are you interested in scientific discussion of grounding boxes?

 

Central to a scientific explanation is disproof of the null hypothesis. That is a scientist will start out with the hypothesis that the grounding box doesn't do anything and then attempt to prove this hypothesis wrong. This may seem counterintuitive to the non-scientist but is essential to the notion of falsifiability. So start with this.

 

Perhaps you aren't interested in a scientific explanation however. This is OK. There are questions that are not scientific. For example "what is the best way to behave to ensure that I will get into heaven?" This is not a scientific question, rather a religious question. It would be wrong to answer that "heaven doesn't exist according to physics" Physics has nothing to answer that question.

 

So let me ask the question: Do you want a scientific answer to the question: how does the grounding box work?

 

If not a scientific answer then what type of answer are you looking for?

 

I am fine with any plausible answer how the grounding boxes works. Scientific or not. So far, do you think I've got more than the antenna idea from a scientific point of view? Even if this is not likely to me I am willing to put it to the test if I only knew how to. 

[Cornan]

7 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Have anything at all with the “rabbit ears” or “whip” type of antenna, like a table radio?

 

Actually there’s a gem kind of buried in esldude’s message:  If something like the Entreq box worked, then antennas wouldn’t be antennas, they’d act as grounds for what they were attached to.

 

Thanks Jud! So, is there a simple way to test if the antenna theory holds true?

[Cornan]

Here is Entreq's own description of their grounding boxes in case someone have missed it:

 

http://www.entreq.com/products/ground-boxes-17667704

Quote

You will get an improvement in dynamic's, a lower noise floor and more natural flow in the sound.

For us a clean and effective ground point is one of the most important factor's in ensuring the best possible sonic platform for any hifi system!
We normally say 220V 50Hz alternative110 V 60Hz. But in our opinion there are a lot more frequence on the power net. These is caused by the way we connect zero and protective ground together in the main central/fuse boxes.Most things these days run on electricity. Current goes in and current goes out of devices and lighting fixtures of every kind. All of these make the current messy. Not least computers with their switched power units, chargers for e.g., mobile telephones, all the halogen and LED lighting, dimmers etc. all cause a great deal of high-frequency noise and stay voltages. This noise always seeks the easiest path to the earth. And since this can be everything from 50-60 Hz to very high-frequency, but weak, currents, it is not always certain that the path of least resistance is via the protective earth. These currents instead can find dishwashers, laundry machines, counter tops with water pipes, your HiFi rack and your stereo set with all the cables and devices as more attractive paths to the earth. Moreover, these stay voltages often generate very large magnetic fields that absolutely have influence on the sound reproduction.
One big problem is that the protective ground many time are overloaded or not constructed for handle this pollutions. It can handle a real "bang" of 110-220Volt and X Watts without any problems, but when it come to this small currents of some Milli V with very high frequence it dont catch them. So instead these will flow arround in the power system searching for a place to ground. And in fact the protective grond can leak back a lot of pollutions to the power net that instead go to f,ex your HiFi system with all the cables and magnetic fields and load up and rest there in their serch for ground.Our ground boxes / Eartha cables are designed to resemble and work like a bit of Mother Earth in concentrated form and offer the simplest and fastest route for this high-frequency noise to reach a earth point. Since such are very high-frequency weak currents, it is not necessary to have a lot of mass; but it is important that the cables are optimized for these high frequency and the groundbox be a purely attractive earth point.The construction and choice of materials in the earth box has a crucial effect on the result. In part, the minerals and metals involved have an effect, but the relationship of proportion and distance between them also affects the result. 

When you connect your system to one of our groundboxes you offer this high frequence stay voltages a ground point where they can find peace instead of flowing arround in the system.

 

Remember that Entreq is not the only one making grounding boxes. Many others like Nordost, Acoustic Revive etc makes them as well. 

Acoustic Revive is quite open about their design, which makes it more interesting https://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/rgc24/rgc24_01.html

 

This part could be interesting to know as well: ?

Quote

Data proven an effect of RGC-24
We used the Radiation Technology's electric field strength meter ELF-100E to measure the strength of electric field. The measured scale changes depending on equipment, but there is a definite decrease in electric filed strength. 
The system in this photograph, 900V/m was measured before connecting RGC-24 and 750V/m after connecting RGC-24.

 

[Cornan]

5 hours ago, plissken said:

 

[Cornan]

3 hours ago, marce said:

It says nothing and proves nothing. As to their measurements LOL, need to be done in a fully isolated EMC lab with background readings etc. Its not the measurements I would do to prove the ground is quieter, I have already posted that methodology. But it look good on the advertising... 

As said before WHY are we not using these magical devices in other areas of electronics, why do we follow the likes of Henry Ott and others, how do we know what we are doing works...

 

 

This was not presented as proofs either. Just as clues to how people that have been building these the last 17 years or so think they work. 

[Cornan]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

One way I can think of, at possible risk to your speakers (  ), but if you are curious to try, would go a long way toward establishing whether or not the Entreq is acting like an antenna and adding noise at a subtle level to your system specifically:

 

- With the Entreq connected but no content, turn up the volume until you can hear something - static, hum, Radio Luxembourg - through the speakers.  Mark with a piece of tape or however else you like where the volume is.

 

- Turn the volume down, turn the system off, disconnect the Entreq.

 

- Again with no program content, turn the system on and turn the volume back up to the mark.  Any change in the noise?

 

Thanks Jud, but this means that I'll have to destroy the box to actually emty it's content. Entreq boxes are carefully sealed/glued without any screws and almost impossible to open up without destroying the box.

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

No no, I just meant *disconnect* the whole thing from the ground screw.

Ok, then it might be worth a try! ?

[Cornan]

8 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

To prevent the rocks from falling out?

 

Your original post showed boxes with what looked like copper plates/foil inside. What's that about?

 

According to Entreq any metal would affect the result of the Grounding boxes negatively. They should infact not be placed close to metal and works better when placed elevated from the floor.

 

The OP picture is from Mono and Stereo's DIY grounding box attempts http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/11/interesting-ground-box-project.html a couple of years ago. 

[Cornan]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

Well, a piece of metal will hold a charge. To get the charge there in the first place, however, an opposite charge must be created somewhere.

 

Well that sounds like tourmalines to me! They will release negatively charged ions when presented with a positive charge (heat).

[Cornan]

4 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

I guess the pics in your original post threw me off.

So all joking aside, this thing could literally be a box of rocks??

 

Yes, it is literally a box of rocks or rather minerals. Tourmaline is the major ingrediant but there are other minerals as well including silver, clear quartz etc. The efficiency is in the mix, conductors and wires.

[Cornan]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

Positive charge is not the same thing as heat.

 

No, but tourmaline stones releases negative ions with heat and pressure as well as with a positive charge.

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Charge build up in a conductor forms the opposite charge relative to earth reference in self-capacitance.

 

But you don't need expensive mahogany boxes and semi-precious stones for this: just place a small-valued capacitor between device ground plane and true earth ground, and you'll have the same effect.

 

That would be an interesting DIY to try! ? What small value capacitor are we talking about here? Could this capacitor be used via signal ground or chassi ground?