my initial experience with Pure Vinyl

[Lars]

How ges it Mr. Clay?

 

Pure Vinyl updated their web site after Jon pointed out the inaccuracies of their comparison to Amarra.

 

I understand that you cannot run the PV 3 (n4n) version for now, but it is the one that integrates with iTunes and plays AIFF with no problems. I also wonder if there are sound differences as well? As for me, I want to enjoy some music today-the heck with all of this testing.

 

 

 

[cfmsp]

Agreed on the testing, I'm heading to the mountains for a couple of days - in fact,it's time to pack & go - although the darned internet follows one wherever one can go these days.

 

When I have time, I'll install Leopard onto another partition (already set up for that purpose) on my Vertex SSD, and try out the Pre Release version.

 

I do want to listen to AIFF files on Tiger first, if possible, as I don't want to be comparing OSes along with PV.

 

Looking at Rob's updates on his comparsion, I'd say that - as Jon pointed out - he's still a bit disingenuous. Yes, he made a couple of changes, but was not completely forthcoming, in my view.

 

For example, Jon make it clear that Amarra will support any Core Audio interface, same as PV, but Rob wrote - "Requires a 'Certified' audio interface (as indicated in product documentation)."

 

Rob doesn't mention the (industry leading) iZoptope upsampling capabilities of Amarra (as Jon indicated) at all.

 

Rob says "machine locked" when Jon say "two systems"...

 

and Rob still claims 'Relies on Ghost Play', when Jon indicated that you can run Amarra WITHOUT simultaneously playing iTunes if desired.

 

Not unexpectedly, Rob also fails to mention that Amarra is offered at multiple price points - including one that's only $70 more than PV - only pointing to the full version cost.

 

enjoy your weekend, I'm outta here.

clay

 

PS, if it isn't obvious to most - I have higher expectations for companies (that I'm considering becoming a customer of) than most, I'm not expecting that all will agree with me, I'm just sharing my opinion in the medium that offers the most likely chance of changing behaviour.

 

For those thinking I might be 'biased', I'll point you to my many skeptical posts about Amarra upon it's introduction.

 

[Lars]

Clay,

 

How much RAM are you using?

 

[james_n]

Politics aside, i've downloaded PV and have been playing with it since last night. Ok not so intuitive as Amarra but up and running in less than 2 minutes with none of the issues you had Clay. It's certainly very good and as a user of full Amarra i think Sonic have got some work to do. Both are a big improvement on plain iTunes but PV seems to sound less processed than Amarra. More listening to do but for the money PV seems to be very good.

 

James

 

 

[Lars]

I agree with you James. I'm sure Amarra won't rest on their laurels. I also have the full version of Amarra.

 

[james_n]

Lets hope so Lars - Very suprised at the results with PV as i thought Amarra would walk it. IMHO the latest version of Amarra is the best sounding yet, but PV is really rather good and certainly in my system is bettering Amarra at the moment - looking forward to the next release of Amarra :-)

 

James

 

 

[pj]

I'm pretty surprised that this one slipped past our ever vigilant defenders of truth in advertising.

 

NetSend Feature Distributed Audio Yes using AirFoil

 

Unless Amarra have begun including a free license for Airfoil in the purchase price I don't see how they can reasonably claim a facility provided by $25US third party software is a "feature"!

 

cheers

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

[icebreaker]

The feedback here on Computer Audiophile from Clay and others about the PV website being confusing is a valuable resource. As are Clay's and other's comments regarding your product. That other music player has taken more than it's share of criticism from CA members.

 

bmckenney wrote: "The website content could certainly be improved. It is confusing."

 

A complete website redesign is needed.

On website alone I would choose the other player. Being user friendly: visually, less confusing layout, more inviting style of writing. My first instinct was to stay away from your product because of the Pure Vinyl website. I (unfairly?) judged the product to be difficult to use. As soon as the PV website came up I wanted to switch channels. I read a few lines but found it confusing and left. First impressions are one of the most effective ways to grab attention. Unfair and superficial? Perhaps. Correcting these problems will undoubtably increase sales of PV significantly.

 

Fortunately my friend who is not put off by such things played PV for me and I found it sounded much better than iTunes. But I am still reticent about going to your website to purchase and install PV.

Best of luck.

 

Regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cfmsp]

 

"How much RAM are you using?"

 

4 Gb, in a 2.3 Ghz DP Power Mac.

 

I haven't had the chance to turn off unnecessary features - as Paul/Pj mentions upstream. It should be fine after I do that, per Paul's comment that he got it down to 3.8% on a single core Mini.

 

Although, I do find it quite 'interesting' that PV make a point about "Ghost Play" and "Bloatware" with Amarra, when their app uses more processing power (with default feature sets engaged) than Amarra/Itunes combined (although with less disk activity).

 

Bottlerocket posted earlier:

"...but my MAC activity monitor showed less CPU usage with sum of Amarra and Itunes than with the sum of PV and Itunes. I decided not to worry about that particular claim."

 

With 1Tb drives in commonly use now, I'm more concerned about the 'creeping featuritis' aspect of 'bloatware', than size itself, since one can use Xslimmer (as I do) to get rid of unnecessary libraries, but nothing can be done to eliminate extra features and unwanted configuration options (that can leave one uncertain about the 'best' configuration).

 

Xslimmer cuts Amarra's latest app size nearly in half, although it's still nearly an order of magnitude LARGER than PV - that's a huge difference, in favor of PV.

 

As Jon asked though, what does 'bloatware' (i.e. the size aspect Rob mentions) have to do with the sound?

 

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/B/bloatware.html

 

The Ram aspect of bloatware could be a concern, esp. for those with limited ability to increase RAM to 4 GB, although I have a hard time understanding how/why RAM is an issue when SSDs are in use.

 

Amarra rather strongly recommends use of 4Gb and SSD for best effect.

 

Lars has reported an improvement in sound with Amarra when increasing from 4 GB to 8Gb, even AFTER an SSD was installed.

 

I don't get that, but....this probably means that PV would have an edge in RAM limited installations. Presumably SSD would improve either package?

 

thoughts?

 

clay

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cfmsp]

 

"Unless Amarra have begun including a free license for Airfoil in the purchase price I don't see how they can reasonably claim a facility provided by $25US third party software is a "feature"!"

 

Agreed, unless with a caveat re the third party requirement (as Rob indicated on his comparison).

 

clay

 

 

[pj]

I'm not a big fan of manufacturer supplied comparison as they always skew the cost/benefit equation in favour of their own product to some extent.

 

I propose these "Clay-friendly" changes to the comparison

 

Change "Ghost Play" to "Simultaneous playback of all tracks by iTunes and Amarra in standard playback mode. Amarra's Playlist mode bypasses iTunes completely but will only load tracks of the same sample rate (see 1.2 user manual pg.7)"

 

It was a bit difficult for Rob to mention that Amarra uses iZotope licensed software when the only place it has been formally acknowledged is in this thread. It's not on the Amarra site nor mentioned in the 1.2 manual. The custom written SRC Pure Vinyl is using looks to be of a similar quality to iZotope's SRC. (see: http://www.channld.com/pure-vinyl_src.html and http://src.infinitewave.ca/ ). Listening is what ultimately counts rather marketing department slogans like "industry leading" but for the purposes of keeping it Clay-friendly lets say "SRC: PV: custom written, high quality SRC. Amarra: iZotope licensed SRC and dither."

 

Audio Interfaces - Amarra: Is designed to work with most Macintosh Core Audio Interfaces (Amarra product page). PV: works with any core audio interface.

 

Price: Amarra Full $995, Feature reduced Amarra Mini $395 (Net Send requires $25 third party application). Pure Vinyl - $229

 

Clay was a little - let us say- "selective" when he compares a significantly reduced sale price for Amarra Mini with the full list price of PV to claim a $70 differential. Given that both Amarra Mini and PV are on sale until 20 Jan and 18 Jan respectively Clay's figure will be accurate for precisely TWO DAYS. If you purchased today the difference would be $116. After the 20th price difference between PV and Amarra Mini will revert to $166 ($191 if you want Net Send). That said the comparison between Amarra Full and PV rather than Amarra Mini and PV is justified based on the functionality available in both applications.

 

There are some interesting looking features in PV which aren't listed in the comparison which I can't assess - the Multichannel tab hides a software crossover which might be of use to those wishing to experiment with bi-amping if you have an interface with more than one pair of outputs. I've attached a couple of pics to illustrate.

 

cheers

Paul

 

[cfmsp]

 

Paul,

 

If you keep using that term, ELP will start calling me 'judge' again.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, much appreciated.

 

"Audio Interfaces - Amarra: Is designed to work with most Macintosh Core Audio Interfaces (Amarra product page). PV: works with any core audio interface.

 

Price: Amarra Full $995, Feature reduced Amarra Mini $395 (Net Send requires $25 third party application). Pure Vinyl - $229

 

Clay was a little - let us say- "selective" when he compares a significantly reduced sale price for Amarra Mini with the full list price of PV to claim a $70 differential. Given that both Amarra Mini and PV are on sale until 20 Jan and 18 Jan respectively Clay's figure will be accurate for precisely TWO DAYS. If you purchased today the difference would be $116. After the 20th price difference between PV and Amarra Mini will revert to $166 ($191 if you want Net Send). That said the comparison between Amarra Full and PV rather than Amarra Mini and PV is justified based on the functionality available in both applications."

 

I was taking Jon's reply here on CA to be the 'gospel', where neither Rob nor yourself did.

 

He posted these prices - "Price $295 (license file), $395 (with iLok), or $995 for Full Version"

 

I took that to mean that the Mini version without Dongle (licensed for two systems) could be had for $295 indefinitely. My apologies, if my assumption is incorrect.

 

Jon also said:

"Audio Hardware Support - Any Core Audio Device

Copy Protection - Dongle or License File (machine locked)

License - Dongle or License File (2 systems)"

 

On the former, Rob reported

"Requires a "Certified" audio interface (as indicated in product documentation)"

despite Jon responding to him directly that Amarra can work with Any Core Audio Device.

 

Rob provided this disclaimer - "Information obtained from software documentation (and developer input, if not already available in current documentation)."

 

IOW, he used the most advantageous source available.

In your comment about iZotope, you suggest that this is as it should be, not reporting something different than is posted elsewhere by the manufacturer. I'll defer to your thoughts, as I'm tough to please in this regard. L)

 

Actually, I was pretty impressed with the language Rob used for describing Ghost Play (see below), although the made up 'marketing term' (as Jon called it) Ghost Play still seems prejudicial. Googling it turns up nothing.

 

"Both the Player software and iTunes are playing the track at the same time, so the computer is doing twice as much work. (It doesn't matter that the iTunes volume is turned down, iTunes is still playing the file in tandem with the other player, placing extra burden on disk or network I/O and the CPU.) "Playlist Mode" circumvents this problem, but direct iTunes playlist interaction and control is not possible in this mode, which also requires performing additional steps (selecting a playlist or a group of songs, then activating Playlist Mode), which is unnecessary with Pure Vinyl's design."

 

Perhaps a wiki-based CA comparison (of the top players) is in order?

 

Perhaps this discussion has gone on too long?

 

clay

 

[james_n]

I bought it - £130 it's a no brainer to run alongside Amarra until Sonic move the game on.

 

James

 

 

[Lars]

My best audio pal (an Amarra owner) in my town is buying Pure Vinyl. He likes it better than Amarra and has a very nice system. I'm with Jim in that nothing stays the same in this game. The more players, the better it is for all of us. I was one of the early adopters of Amarra, and took a good deal of heat for this. I would do it again as I think Jon has a great product. I also think Rob has something special as well.

 

Clay, when you have the time, let us know what you think about the sound of PV. All of the rest of the discussion about the ads and comparisons amount to zip in my opinion. I also think that Rob took your discussions the wrong way. He doesn't know that you like to write ; or should I say think out loud :-).

 

This is a great time to be into computer audio!

 

Steve

 

[cfmsp]

 

"The more players, the better it is for all of us."

 

Agreed, would Amarra have been able to charge $995 if PV 3 was well known?

From reading the site, the PV Pre-release was released last spring.

 

There's a new release of Play coming, from what I hear through the grapevine, and of course Twilight.

 

 

"Clay, when you have the time, let us know what you think about the sound of PV. "

 

I'm away for a couple of days, but I did get to listen to some Lossless files via version 2.3 before I took off.

 

I thought that PV sounded more different than iTunes of all the players I've listened to (which is only Amarra and briefly Play).

 

I'll listen again when (if?) I get the problem (with AIFF files not playing) resolved.

 

re your thinking out loud comment, I guess my 'user experience' test didn't turn out very well.

 

 

clay

 

 

 

 

[chilest]

Friends:

I have a strange issue that I cannot figure out when using Pure Vinyl Recorder as a iTune playback server. I have iTunes version 9 and a MacBook Pro running Snow Leopard. My CDs have been ripped to my iTunes library in AIFF format. When I play music using Pure Vinyl Recorder with the Memory Play enabled, after the first song plays, the Pure Vinyl Recorder pauses, and does not proceed to the next song. When the memory play is turned off, there is no problem, songs play one after the other and do so in the order indicate on the album.

 

I wonder if there is not sufficient memory to load the next song????? The memory play "dial" indicated as a circle with green and blue shades along with some megabit information directly below it, seems to be adjustable and changes depending on the album being played. For example, on one ripped album it lists 56 MB whereas another indicates 365 MB underneath the dial.

 

 

I have tried launching and playing the music files by either enabling the play button in iTunes software or alternatively the Pure Vinyl play button, this does not seem to help.

 

Tom

 

[Lars]

Tom,

 

How much RAM does your MacBook Pro have? If it's only 1GB, you would probably have problems in Memory Mode. 4GB would be very good. I use 8GB and have had no problems.

 

[SteveS1]

Hi Tom,

 

Have you tried restarting you machine? If your machine is re-started, try loading a gapless album (making sure the tracks for that album are ticked under "get info" in iTunes for gapless replay). When you click play - you should see the tracks load into memory. If they load and the first track begins, it would suggest the memory is adequate.

 

I haven't had the issue myself, gapless playback was the first thing that attracted me away from Amarra (up until recent release, it didn't support it).

 

Try mailing support, I found Rob very helpful.

 

Steve

 

 

 

[Lars]

"I haven't had the issue myself, gapless playback was the first thing that attracted me away from Amarra (up until recent release, it didn't support it)."

 

Steve,

 

Have you been able to play any hi-rez files gapless? I mean 88.2/24 or 96/24 titles. I haven't been able to do this with PV. Amarra, no problem.

 

[SteveS1]

Lars,

 

Sorry, I'm very mainstream with my music and have very little hi rez, and none of it is gapless. So all my Amarra/PV testing has been CD rips.

 

Is there anything better than the usual 'audiophile' lobby muzak available yet? :-)

 

Steve

 

[Lars]

Other than stuff from Linn, HDTracks and iTrax, not really. I have ripped about 100 DVD-As and have gotten some good stuff that way. I really need the gapless for many of my classical titles.

 

I know a Beta tester for Amarra; before they brought out 1.2, he tested the gapless feature with many high-rez titles. Looks like Rob needs to do the same.

 

[pj]

Hi Tom,

 

I had similar issues with PV when playing from playlists rather than the main library, or so it seemed. Turning off the "Update track play position in iTunes" and "Can Adjust Play Position From iTunes" options under "Prefs > iTunes Music Server Mode" appeared to help with this issue.

 

cheers

Paul

 

[chilest]

Steve:

You solved my problem. Turns out these were all downloaded albums from HD Tracks---each track was subsequently converted from FLAC to AIFF. They needed, in turn, to be selected for gapless replay. Thanks for the input, I totally missed this.

tom

 

[Lars]

I selcted the Gapless option for the tracks and deselected "Update track play position in iTunes" and "Can Adjust Play Position From iTunes" options under "Prefs > iTunes Music Server Mode" .

 

The first track would play and then lock up the program.

 

[pj]

Are you seeing PV scan the album tracks, then display "Loading Gapless Tracks (Please Wait)" before playback starts?

 

I've loaded up a couple of albums - one upsample to 24/88.2 the other at 24/88.2 purchased from HD Tracks and both tagged as gapless. Currently listening to the upsampled album and have got to the 4th track without an issue. The only way I've been able to get gapless playback to mess up is by repeatedly jumping between tracks and albums.

 

cheers

Paul