Stradivarius vs modern violins again

[gmgraves]

33 minutes ago, gzubeck said:

Just like modern concrete is better than roman concrete...two thousand years and still going strong. I think with the combination of modern computer analysis plus skilled hand made craftsmanship you can reproduce something close enough to a strad. First they need to figure it out.

I heard a string quartet on WCRB, Boston, a couple of years ago where all the players were playing carbon-fiber instruments (violin, cello, viola, bass viol) from the Boston firm of Luis and Clarke. The violinist said that they decided to try the carbon-fiber instruments, because they travelled so much on aircraft from gig to gig, that it was getting really expensive, having to book two seats each; one for themselves and one for their instruments. Wooden string instruments have to acliamatize to a new environment, and cannot be carried in a luggage hold because they are generally neither pressurized nor heated. The folks at Luis and  Clarke assured them that the carbon-fiber instruments were absolutely 100% temperature and humidity stable. The firm let them borrow a set of instruments to try. They were all skeptical because all of their wooden viols were very expensive European instruments, mostly Italian. The speaker himself played s a Stradavarius. He went on to say that their skepticism about how these carbon instruments would sound melted away after their first rehearsal with them. They were booked to play in Calgary while they had the borrowed instruments and from Calgary, they needed to fly overnight to Mexico City for their next date. The violinist said that they played one night in Calgary, where the January temperature was -35 degrees F, after which the instruments were checked as baggage, and when they got to Mexico City, where it was 80 degrees and very humid, they were flabbergasted to find that the carbon-fiber instruments did not even need to be retuned from the sub-zero Canadian gig, or the flight in the cargo hold of a jet liner! The entire quartet agreed that these modern instruments sounded at least as good as their priceless antique wooden ones! Needless to say, he continued, they all bought the Luis and Clarke instruments, and now they leave their antique viols at home when they travel! I wish I could remember the name of the quartet, but since I'd never heard of them before, the name went in one ear and out the other!

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, sphinxsix said:

@gmgraves An interesting story!

Yet there are not many quartets which use carbon violins.. At least I haven't heard of any. It seems to me that some clever marketing took place here..

 

One more thing about the Strad vs modern violin sound samples - they are probably MP3 or some other lossy format and it's not so easy to tell the difference between them. Once I had a demo CD on which the violinist used Stradivarius, Guarneri, some other old instruments and a quite expensive new one (can't recall the brand) and it was quite easy to hear the sound differences.

 

I once heard a live demonstration of the differences between a Stad, and Amati, and a Guarneri. The occasion was this Hi-Fi shop that I occasionally visited. One of the regulars was a prodigy violins (I would guess his age to be about 16). I was there one Saturday when he showed up with three violins that had been loaned to him by wealthy patrons. He stood in the middle of listening one of the rooms and played a section of the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto #1 on each. This was a great test because (A) he played the same section of the work each time and (B) there was no electronics between the violins and my ears. The result was that the Strad sound rich and sonorous, the Amati was lighter sounding and Guarneri was actually a bit thin and screechy sounding. We all agreed that the Strad sounded the best.

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, STC said:

 

There are also plenty of testimonials for many audio products such as the green marker. 

 

That's entirely different. The Green Pen is subjective - like interconnects. Some people are going to be convinced that they hear a difference, and nothing is going to change their mind. You can explain the physics behind coaxial cable and perception vs physics 'til you are blue in the face and it won't make any difference. People who play an instrument professionally have a relationship with that instrument which is many faceted and quite deep. They know intimately how it sounds, how easy or difficult it is to play, the range of tonality and the degree of inflection that it is possible to coax out of one instrument or an other. These people are not swayed by charlatans hawking questionable products. They would know instantly whether or not a particular instrument measures-up. 

[gmgraves]

55 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Can't help noticing the similarities between professional musicians and audiophiles.

 

I thought the researcher said that in terms of physics, they found no difference between the two. 

 

 

 

The difference, of course, is that the "sound" of the violin isn't the only criterion that the musician uses to choose his/her instrument. It's the way the instrument responds to the player's touch that is just as important to the musician a sit the instrument's sound. There is nothing akin to that (as far as I know) in the audiophile's world.

[gmgraves]

7 hours ago, ecwl said:

Since it's not blinded, I thought the Strad sounded warmer but the non-Strad sounded slightly clearer, maybe slightly too bright but with a bit more detail? I also couldn't tell the two instruments apart during the podcast when the violin was playing with the orchestra. It was easier to tell from the individual NPR clips.

 

Scientifically speaking, if they are measuring "projection", they should be able to just measure how loud the instrument is near the violin and at the audience position. Not sure why that wasn't done simultaneously with the blind testing.

 

With all that said, this forum is great. It makes me question whether I should continue to spend money upgrading my stereo. Maybe I should buy a carbon fibre violin and then take violin lessons so that I can play. On the other hand, maybe I should get a cheap violin first and take lessons...

 

 

That's the paradox here, isn't it? To wit; cheap violins don't "handle" very well. They are difficult to finger, requiring undue finger pressure and they do not respond to the bow very well. This makes it so difficult and unpleasant to try to play that often students who think that they would like to learn the violin get discouraged and give up. How do I know this? Because I was one of those students. When I decided to take up the violin, my elementary school provided one. I didn't know that there would be any difference between how various violins "handled", and not knowing any better, I assumed that they were all miserable to play. So I quit. Years later I was going with a young lady who played violin professionally in the local symphony. I told her my experiences in grammar school with a school-provided "student" violin, and she handed me her 19th Century Flemish instrument. It was a revelation! Where fingering the old student model was difficult and uncomfortable, my girlfriend's instrument responded to a very light touch. To say I was flabbergasted by this would be an understatement. 

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

I've worked with carbon fiber composites for a few years now.  If you don't make them right they will eventually, on their own, warp.  

 

Lets hope Luis and Clark "makes them right"!

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, STC said:

Can you pick the Stradivarius violin from sound alone? I know this is Youtube quality but at least you can hear the difference. I pick 2.

 

 

 

 

I picked #5 as best, but I thought #2 and #6 were also very sonorous and pleasant. The differences between all these violins were certainly not subtle, were they? Thanks for posting this, STC.

[gmgraves]

On 5/10/2017 at 10:31 AM, gzubeck said:

I would really like to hear what a complete orchestra would sound like with carbon fiber instruments. I can really see the allure of these carbon instruments...massively cheaper, no humidity/temperature adjustments needed, and the cost if lost, stolen or damaged is off the charts cheap for a professional musician. I think also we have to get used to the different presentation of these new carbon fiber instruments....they are definitely cleaner in presentation and the player is going to have to work hard to figure out how to maximize its strengths...

 

Certainly not all string players are playing CF instruments, but a goodly portion of the Boston Symphony's string section uses Luis and Clark instruments. Go to:

http://classicalwcrb.org/programs/boston-symphony-orchestra#stream/0

and give a listen. WCRB streams at 192 kbps, so it actually sounds very good and the engineers on this station who "work" these broadcasts really know what they are doing.

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, crenca said:

 

This is a common experience with all instruments (even including electrified instruments like electric guitars, etc.).

 

Recently I purchased a student grade trumpet for my daughter but I made sure it was of a sufficient quality such that she has at least a chance to experience the instrument for what it is supposed to be...

 

It's just as well that I didn't get serious about playing the violin. I could never be good at it. After all, I'm not Jewish.

 

[gmgraves]

15 hours ago, esldude said:

Or Asian??

 

To a lesser extent, sure. But David Oistrak, Yehudi Menuhin, Yascha Heifetz, Nathan Milstien, Isaac Stern, Itzahk Perlman, and Anne Sophie Mutter do make my point for me pretty well. After all, I've never heard anyone call a violin an "Asian Guitar"

 

(no anti-semitism implied here)

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, sphinxsix said:

@gmgraves

Obviously you don't have to be Jewish to play the guitar. Ever thought about it?

But you may be..

Check out wedding band's (!) orthodox guitarist (solo starts at 2:30 and it's ..I'd say an orthodox Eddie van Halen style )

either.

I think I'd enjoy a wedding party like that!

 

 

 

 

I Think that you misunderstand me. The violin is often referred to as the "Jewish Guitar" obviously a reference to the fact that most world-class violinists (the famous ones, anyway ) are Jewish. Nobody is saying that Jewish people can't play any instrument that they please...

 

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

I understood all very well. Maybe expressed myself in a slightly disorganized way. I was trying to make you consider playing some other instrument (I myself bought my bass guitar after 40 ) eg guitar.

 

It would be very nice to be able to play classical guitar (like the other John Williams) but I have less than no interest in  electric guitars. But alas, I took up french horn instead (I was no good at that either).

[gmgraves]

8 hours ago, jabbr said:

You claim to be single because of your choices but just consider that the french horn might be a factor... if you are really looking for "free" women, the electric guitar is quite effective... that said, the first violins have the entire second violin and viola sections to pick from

 

Since I haven't picked up a french horn since high-school, so I doubt it is a factor. As for bachelorhood being a choice, better dead than wed!