A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[lmitche]

Today I took delivery and spent several hours listening to a new SATA Pcie card recommended by Romaz. I disabled the motherboard SATA ports in the bios.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AZ9T41M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

It definitely sounds different, but I can't tell if it sounds better or not.  It needs to break-in and seemed to improve in the first two hours of use. I am definitely hearing new things in familiar tracks, depth is great.  Image weight seems a little lighter but this it may be due to higher precision.  Female sibilance has increased.  However I was able to listen to an entire Norah Jones track, the harsh breathiness of her voice was gone. Mixed bag so far, but I am leaning towards keeping it.  More later.

[lmitche]

Ted, yes indeed. Roy put me up to it!  

 

It's not the slamdunk the m.2 card is.

[lmitche]

Roy,

 

The SATA card is plugged into the PCIe 3.0 x16_1 slot of my Asus z170m plus motherboard. From the rear of the motherboard that's the slot closet to the CPU. While I can't find any documentation suggesting that it is or isn't PCH connected, I doubt it is.  This also makes me wonder if I should move the pcie x1 Adnaco card to the PCIe 3.0 x16_2 slot.  Feel free to take a look at the documentation on this board and let me know what you think.  Any input is appreciated.  Thanks.

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, romaz said:

 

Larry,

 

I'm pretty sure your PCIe 3.0 x16 slot bypasses the PCH.  I have yet to see a block diagram for a motherboard where this isn't so.  I would be interested to know if placing your Adnaco card on your 2nd PCIe x16 slot results in an improvement.

 

Roy, the SATA SAGA continues!  

 

Moved the Adnaco to the second PCIE x16 slot putting the nic on a x1 slot.  Nic only used for Tidal, so no big deal.  Definitely sounding great, female sibilance gone. Had to turn down the volume by 1db, so the image is strong.  ATTO disk benchmark runs at 175mbs up from 120mbs.

 

So far so good. Tomorrow I'll go back to the m.2 SATA port and compare and report.

 

Things are sounding so good further tweaking just seems futile. That's good as I can't think of any other hardware tweaks to do.

 

Will start Audiolinux testing with native DSD next week.

[lmitche]

Rajiv, that's funny.  Actually it's more like essing.  Sssssssssspanish Harlem.

[lmitche]

FWIW - I run my two 4gb sticks of DDR4 in single channel mode.  It definitely sounds better than a single stick or two sticks in dual channel mode.

 

Memory usage never tops 1.7gb here.

[lmitche]

10 hours ago, romaz said:

 

Thanks for sharing this, Larry.  I have actually ordered two 2GB sticks because I wasn't sure if single channel or dual channel would sound better and so you have now removed the guesswork for me.

Hmmm, I can't find any 2gb DDR4 memory availability,  Guessing you ordered ddr3?

 

 

[lmitche]

"I think the general consensus is that speed and power = noise and slower and less powerful is generally less noisy." - Roy

 

"You think these things matter so much even when we're talking about a music server connected to an endpoint like sMS-200, rather than a music player directly feeding a DAC?" - Rajiv

 

Aren't these two questions related?  First off we are all using two box designs with one box doing, heavy (hqplayer), or heavier lifting (SMBD server), the second converting from ethernet to usb, or fiber to usb each powered by an LPS-1.  My fiber to USB box uses very little power 5V DC@ 0.35A maximum for the R1USB30 itself. So, I think we are really talking about the same music sever - endpoint, high power - low power architecture,

 

With galvanic isolation in place, through either fiber or ethernet, I don't think that the power usage of an isolated server machine makes any difference, but that the cleanliness of the power does.

 

To me the mystery is why dicking around with something like the sata connection has such a huge impact.  I don't get it and can only guess we are exposing the impact of timings differences between various connection points by varying this parameter.  What do you think?

 

[lmitche]

28 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Hi Roy,

 

Any reasons that an OS drive is always busy in Windows?  Given that an audio PC just runs a few processes, after a short time, all the files to be run or be read would already been cached in the RAM, would it?  Also, by disabling the page file, there is no need in reading OS disk again.  The OS disk should not be busy.

 

Not sure if Windows needs to write something secretly into OS disk.  If not, then the OS disk activity may be reduced to to zero and the influence of the OS disk may be reduced to minimal.

 

This is a question that has puzzled me for a long time.  

 

 

Would you mind to tell us were to get the Intel X25E SSD?

  

GreenLeo,

 

I have spent hours chasing down random disk writes in Windows 10, finding the source, and researching a way to kill the processes associated with this random activity.  There are logging processes all over Windows.  In the Windows 10 optimization thread you will find various scripts that many of us have contributed to prevent this random disk writing behavior.

 

Left on it's own, WIndows makes promiscuous use of the hard disk and will write many megabytes of data per second despite zero user activity and a disabled swap disk.  Just run the resource monitor available of the performance tab of the task manager.  Once in the resource monitor watch the disk activity tab.

 

Bring a barf bag.

 

Despite my efforts, I still have 10s of thousand of bytes of logs flowing every second.  Very annoying.  

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, ted_b said:

Larry, while I agree that your fiber to USB box is doing little, I think those of us with the NAA architecture (fifo buffer containing actual dac drivers and USB card) is doing more, and I often wonder if these SATA, etc issues are more important to the NAA (uRendu and SOtM notwithstanding) than the server.  And it is quite important to me, for example, as I seriously contemplate some of your recommendations on my server (replace Platinum ps with Titanium, replace SSD with 6TB hdd, thus also "replacing" NAS, install hdd via non-standard M.2 adapter, etc),  Your perspective and results could very well be looked at as quite different than mine, as you are really going direct, per se, and the latencies and driver issues are server-based for you.   I dunno.  This whole thread was predicated on using an NAA or streamer and measuring direct ethernet connections from the server, but now this has evolved (and not a bad thing at all) to overall architectural sq design.  And for that, the architectures of our signal paths are often very different.

 

Oh well, It's not a lot of money to try it, and it is easily undone. 

Ted, I'm beginning to think it may be time for a road trip.  

[lmitche]

28 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Hi Imitche,

 

Thank you for your reply.  It seems that I need to buy a good SATA cable then.

 

At the moment I'm using Windows Server 2016 Core mode that runs literally a handful of processes as shown using the command tasklist /FI "STATUS eq RUNNING".  However, I can't find a tool that can show the disk activity in Core Mode.  Any recommendation?

Greenleo, Sorry, but I don't know Windows Server 2016.  The resource monitoring tool has to be there somewhere.  Here is a site that may help:

 

http://serverfault.com/questions/810948/windows-server-core-network-and-disk-resource-monitoring

[lmitche]

As such, they weren't expecting any further significant improvement when they attached the tX-USB Ultra and yet, they claim that adding the tX-USB Ultra resulted in a huge further improvement.

 

The manufacturers don't know anymore then we do.

[lmitche]

Happy to confirm that the m2 ngff route for the hard disk Sata port sounds best.  I moved the Adnaco fiber card to PCIE slot 1 and the network card to PCIE slot 2, so everything has an unshared connection to the CPU.

 

The SQ is beautiful.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, Cooler said:

Sorry was on vacation in Rome and missed most of the discussion here

So is it still valuable to buy 1600 watt EVGA ATX, considering a fantastic results of Seasonic Prime titanium 750/850 watt?

To my knowledge no one has done an a to b comparison of the EVGA vs. the Seasonic.  Nevertheless I know people with one or the other that are very happy with their choice.

[lmitche]

33 minutes ago, Cooler said:

As i understood from EVGA review, one of it benefits of it are cables (motherboard and AC). I think would be great to buy cables with the same quality for motherboard + good AC cable:

 

 

With AC cable its easier, there are a lot of them on the market, but motherboard cable, can you guys suggest some audiophile one or just with great quality?!

Cooler, you are right of course.  There is a lot of value in the build quality of the cables included with the evga.  I don't know of another source for a ATX motherboard cable that is anything near the same quality. 

 

I'm using the included AC cable and have no plans to replace it.

[lmitche]

Hi All,

 

The  SATA SAGA continues!  

 

Thanks to Alex Crespi, I learned of a thread in usaudiomart where others have tested a large number of very cheap <$2 SATA cables and claim increased SQ with several brands.  I have ordered what appears to be the top three models, and they will dripple in over the next few weeks.Given the terrific results of the earlier SATA experiments I would not be surprised that there is more SQ to be gained here.

 

If you are interested I can post test results here.  

 

Larry

[lmitche]

52 minutes ago, pam1975 said:

hi Larry, didn't see that thread anywhere on usaudiomart...?

It's rather like this thread with topics weaving in and out. Here is a useful starting point:

 

https://www.usaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1172&start=540

[lmitche]

Today, the two Terra Grande cables arrived.  I should have ordered three. In replacing the existing cables it appears I had two 12 inch bjc cat 6a cables and a third bjc cat 6a three foot cable held together with two EN70HD isolation transformers.  One end runs to the nic, the other to the Asus EAN66 wifi adapter.

 

Without thinking too much, I replaced the bjc chain with the two TG cables and one EN70HD.  Listening to this SQ took a major nose dive. I went back to the bjc chain immediately.

 

I'm thinking two EN70HDs are better then one.  UGH!!!! I never realized the benefit delivered by the second isolation transformer, I just stuck it on the end of the cable as I had no other use for it. Remember my music is now stored locally, so the network is only used for control signals or Tidal. As the second transformer add was simultaneous to the move to the hard disk, I can't be sure which change added this most benefit.  More to come.

 

It is also raining SATA cables here, at a cost of about 50 cents each, so much to do.

[lmitche]

5 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

Thanks, Larry.  So are you suggesting that you prefer the Terra Grande to the BJC 6A but that you need 3 of them to sound better than what you have now?

Nope, I can't make any conclusions.  I need a third cable to make a valid Terra Grande comparison to the BJC chain as I need two EN70HDs inline. Make sense?

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Ah OK. Duly noted. I used to have a Lightspeed 2g cable around here somewhere. I may have to dig that out of the drawer and try it when the time comes!

Here is the split cable I use here.  

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DZQEIJE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

TheOTG design is helpful with the microidsd.  Out of the box I perform a couple mods and it's good to go.  It beats the lightspeed 2g hands down.

[lmitche]

28 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Let's see what the findings are. I am not sure I buy the premise that a split cable helps, if the power source is simply another USB port on the source component.

 

OTOH - using the power split directly from an LPS - that I can see! 

Over here, as you say, for powering the microidsd the power side of the cable goes directly to a LPS-1.

 

However, with the 8 to 10 DAC models I've had here in the past 3 years, whether the dac needs vbus power or not, the split cable, or vbus elimination seems to reduce intermodulation distortion of the signal on every DAC.

[lmitche]

SATA Saga update.  The winning SATA cable is the flat Coboc 6 inch silver cable from Newegg.  I have it running between the m.2 Sata adapter and WD HDD.  It is just enough to work.

 

SQ is the best I've heard here.  Depth and ambience has hit a new level.  This is against the 18 inch Coboc flat cable, various Asus cables, an Akasa silver and the 12 inch Bitfenix cable.  My guess is that the cable length has everything to do with sound quality on a SATA connection.  This makes me wonder if it isn't time to research a SAS drive.

 

I learned that SATA, like USB, is a half duplex connection.  SAS is full duplex and may take the sensitivity to cable length away.  Maybe someone has an opinion about that.

 

It is tempting to order a second Adnaco with the pcie bus option.  That would allow one to move the SATA or SAS controller to the other side of a fiber cable.  Hmmmm.....

 

All for now.

[lmitche]

11 hours ago, romaz said:

 

Thanks for reporting your findings, Larry. Your comparisons are always of great interest.  

HI Roy,

 

Thanks for your comments.  Yes, I agree further galvanic isolation may not accomplish anything here. But this is CA and we won't know until we try.

 

Clearly the use of the m.2 sata adapter and the six inch Coboc SATA cable add up to less resistance by reducing the length of the connection between hard disk and PCH.  Clearly the Coboc cable is well built, but the edge must be due to lower resistance.  It is a step change from the 18 inch cable here.

 

The other surprise is the benefit of the second emosystems isolation transformer between the Asus wireless adapter and the Intel NIC card.  The impact here is from good to great, and removing one of the EMOs destroys the SQ draining all the pop away.

 

Audiolinux testing begins this week.  I'm anxious to learn if the latest kernel eliminate the 0 db pops evident in the past.  If so, I may say bye bye to Windows.

 

Larry

 

 

[lmitche]

Here is an comprehensive article on the Seasonic titanium line of ATX power supplies for those that are interested.

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11252/the-seasonic-prime-titanium-power-supply-review

[lmitche]

The new optane nvme sticks are going to be an interesting.  I'd definitely get an optane compatible motherboard for a new build.  The optane memory will be used for cache against a local drive.