A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[ElviaCaprice]

19 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Actually, all 4 clock taps on the sCLK-EX board inside my tX-USBultra are in use. 1 internally to the tX, 2 going to the sMS, and 1 going to the switch.

 

Yes, it runs with an LPS-1, which gets very toasty! This was obviously my first suspect, but I have played with beefier PSUs like the stock SMPS, an HDPlex 100 and an el cheapo, and they all have the problem.

 

so the problem lies elsewhere.

What does sotm think?  Have they been able to zero in on which component is the issue?  That's good to hear about the tX-USB ultra being able to handle the 4 clocks being powered by an LPS-1.    Hope you get some answers soon.

[ElviaCaprice]

52 minutes ago, guerph said:

I bought my sMS-200 back in December. I've been mulling upgrades. Has anyone had their sMS-200 upgraded to ultra? I'm basically trying to figure out if I should introduce something like the ISO Regen between the sMS-200 and my 2Qute...or possibly upgrade/replace my sMS-200 with the Ultra version.

I wouldn't do that.  Of course we are waiting on real results with the ISO Regen, but you aren't going to need the GI on it with a great GI already on the 2Qute.  As far as upgrades, your really no different off than Romaz with his DAVE.  One can follow his footsteps with a 2Qute and enjoy significant improvements as he has with DAVE.

Myself, I'm going to stick with the USB route with my 2Qute, which is looking like this=> Mobo (EX clock)=>TXbexpusb 3.0 pcie card (EX clock)=>tX-USB ultra (all 4 EX clocks)=>2Qute (2 LPS-1's series). 

At this point I'm not sure what to use the 4th EX clock on, not that I have to.  I do have an ISO Regen on the way, 2nd batch, so I'll test that out.

[ElviaCaprice]

15 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Very exciting to see this! Yes, ultimately, it seems that the way to maximize is to use all 4 clocks immediately upstream of the DAC.

 

In the USB case, that's a good question, where to put that 4th clock. Doesn't SOtM have a tX-USBhub product? Could they modify that to accept an sCLK-EX? That could be your 4th clock, analogous to another tX-USBultra in series.

 

Just spitballing here.

Yes, but anything else added and then I have to get another LPS-1 for it.  The Pcie card and the tXusbultra are going to need all they can get from their own individual LPS-1.  I did look at sotm's hubs etc., but they all connect to the motherboard extra usb outputs, not from an external usb port.  I could also DIY a regen or even the ISO Regen, but again I would need another LPS-1. 

I think what I will do is add another clock 25Mhz for if I ever decide I want to change motherboards, then I'm covered on the main clock.  Right now I use a skylake mobo 24Mhz.

 

What did sotm charge you for changing clocks?

[ElviaCaprice]

7 hours ago, mozes said:

The tX-USBHubEX plugs to the USB port

 

https://www.docs.sotm-audio.com/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=manuals:tx-usbhubex_operating_instructions_rev1.3_en.pdf

Thanks for correcting my on this, Mozes.  I missed this when reading about it.

[ElviaCaprice]

39 minutes ago, limniscate said:

We forgot to test Sonore microRendu to tX-USB Ultra.

Missed opportunity on a lot of different configurations.  Quite a chore.  We also are left in the dark in comparison to USB only stream drop the Ethernet.  Would have been nice to hear about  Server to tX-USB Ultra to DAC in comparison.

[ElviaCaprice]

1 hour ago, romaz said:

Tomorrow, I will receive a tX-USBUltra and so I will have 4 Ultra devices in series to try.

 

Roy, it will be nice to hear how you find the tX-USBUltra in comparison.  Hopefully you can do a direct USB only, drop the Ethernet, comparison.  I would be curious about just 1 EX against 1 EX , Ethernet vs USB direct.  Which I guess you can't do now that I think about it, with 2EX clocks in the sms-200.

[ElviaCaprice]

1 hour ago, limniscate said:

 

At first we replaced the Sonore microRendu with the sMS-200 Ultra and left the Singxer SU-1 in place.  Then we took the Singxer out and just used the sMS-200 Ultra direct to the Yggy via Curious USB.  The sMS-200 Ultra via Curious USB to Yggy was much better than the sMS-200 Ultra via Curious USB to the Singxer via Transparent Reference AES to the Yggy.

 

 

This again confirms that the last clocking before the DAC is the most important and that poorer clocking following a better clock degrades SQ.

[ElviaCaprice]

1 minute ago, hurka said:

Singxer su1 minimum requirement 2 Pcs!! Lps1 power(5v).Use it ?

Singxer use bad clock? New uptone usb use the same.....

SU1 only uses the same clock as ISO Regen for the I2S output, not the other outputs. 

[ElviaCaprice]

9 minutes ago, hurka said:

many outputs just disturbing each other.Im using only i2s.

If you look back in the thread you will see Hols found the SU-1 i2s to Holo DAC similar as tXusbUltra to usb Holo.  But he did not modify the SU-1 power supply with an LPS-1, so my guess would be that the SU-1 i2s with LPS-1 still trumps a single tXusbUltra via USB.   But, what happens if you add 3 more sclk EX clocks preceding the tXusbUltra in other components?  All bets off and I think the USB chain would surpass the SU-1 i2s in sound quality.

[ElviaCaprice]

4 hours ago, romaz said:

 

My friend who is loaning me his tX-USBUltra also owns a standard sMS-200.  Using his BRIX (NUC) server with its standard USB port, he compared BRIX > tX-USBUltra > Chord DAVE against BRIX > sMS-200 > tX-USBUltra > Chord DAVE and in comparison, straight USB sounded flat and dull.  Just like me, he uses the "direct connection" with his sMS-200.  I'm pretty sure I will find the same thing with my setup that he has found and so my greater interest will be to see what happens with the Adnaco in the chain.  Adnaco with stock clocks + tX-USBUltra might give me some sense of how good the Adnaco might sound with its clocks replaced, especially since I believe they are both using the same TI USB chipsets.

 

Roy, I take it your friend was using quality power supplies on his testing?  I don't understand what flat and dull mean in audio terms?  Sometimes some folks attribute electrical noise as being alive or full of energy. 

I don't have a lot of confidence in the Adnaco S3B in single mode, after reading an old review here, where they compared the Adnaco (powered with an LPS) to an SoTM Usb audio card and couldn't declare a winner. 

Page down about 3/4 to Obee.

 

As always I shall be interested in your findings.

[ElviaCaprice]

1 minute ago, hols said:

It's great that SOtM is committed to solve the problem. After using it for 2weeks now my tx-USB Ultra still experience this pause problem but it is a little different from your situation. I only have the pause problem when I use the LPS-1. When I use the stock switching power supply then there is no poblem. I have also tried it on different DACs including Holo Spring and T+A DAC8DSD, in different OS like Windows10 and Linux the result is the same. Just for your reference. 

Is the stock switching supply at a higher voltage?  Like 9V?  Since the LPS-1 doesn't shut down and start blinking, it must be supplying enough amperage, but that doesn't mean the SOtM doesn't need more voltage.  I suspect from what your saying it needs more than 7V.  If you had two LPS-1's you could try doing a series and see if that solves the problem.  Like 5V and 3.3V

[ElviaCaprice]

3 minutes ago, hurka said:

ok romaz,once again

why need rubidium master clock(noisy)with this full owerpriced sotm clock???

where the pictures this 1000dollars clock uses xo,ocxo,

how CAN I CONNECTED 4 output with others short cables ... 

Why the rudeness?  Nobody has to answer any of your questions.  Go to the SoTM website and look at the sclk EX clocking board yourself.  Nobody here is using the master clock option.  The sclk EX is a clocking board, no XO or OCXO.  The Sclk Ex clocking board can have up to 4 separate clocks on it, cable up to 45cm are provided to run to your replaced clocks.

[ElviaCaprice]

7 minutes ago, amir57bs said:

how can you power an ATX socket with SR7? it seems you should buy 3 or 4 SR7! is it right?

This is a direct DC capable mobo.  Is this better?  Probably not, since the board will be performing the Pico ATX tasks and who knows how noisy this is?

[ElviaCaprice]

Yes, I know what we could learn.  Go smaller and use better power supplies. 

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on my long time talked about Jetway Pico-ITX.  Plan on going for this one,

 http://jetwaycomputer.com/JBC400P93.html

 

The 2807 dual core, 4.3W, 12V DC, can be powered with 2-LPS-1's in a series.  Waiting on one minor detail before ordering.  If all works well, I'll send it off to SOTM for clocking upgrade.

 

 

[ElviaCaprice]

12 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

Looks like a great way to go!  Make sure you test with LPS-1s.  On boot up, I suspect it will draw more than 1.1A.

From the Prime 95 tests, if one was to power the hard drive separately it will easily run off less than 1.1A and may even do so powering an HDD.  Yes, I plan to test.  Another good finding is that it has a SATA II connector.  I will add an external PCIe 1X connector off the half mini PCIe. 

[ElviaCaprice]

How did the initial Adnaco tests go with the tXUSB Ultra?

[ElviaCaprice]

I am starting to think, listening to others findings, that the clocking isn't as important as power source and that once the music stream has been contaminated it becomes difficult to correct and that is where the extra clocking/isolation comes into play.  If we could just keep the stream clean from the get go, server, then maybe we don't need all these expensive solutions/clocking further downstream.  Keep it short, with one good clock before the DAC.  As long as the power is clean throughout the path.

Or maybe I'm just wishing it was that simple, if even possible.

[ElviaCaprice]

27 minutes ago, romaz said:

You should notice a rather large improvement by following your sMS-200 with the tX-USBultra but this is provided you can power the tX-USBultra with something at least to the caliber of your Sbooster.  You could send your router to SOtM to tap the extra clocks in your tX-USBultra, however, you may not notice a huge improvement unless you also replace all the clocks in your motherboard.  It remains my belief based on observations that if you follow a good clock with a bunch of bad clocks (that are in your motherboard), you will negate the benefits of that good clock.  If you are intent on taking advantage of those unused clocks in your tX-USBultra, consider doing what Rajiv has done and send in your sMS-200 and a switch for clock replacement.

 

You lost me here, Roy.  You have yet to replace your mobo clocks but you saw a big improvement in SQ with the SOTM products and new clocking.  I thought you were in the mindset that working back from the DAC upstream that the best clock is first next to the DAC and so on. 

I don't know that we can say that better clocking in the mobo is really the panacea that we are hoping for, without the ability to provide clean power throughout the mobo.  Which in my opinion comes first and foremost over any new clocking.

All we know, so far from observation, is that placing a bad clock after a better clock, downstream, seems to effect SQ negatively.  Same can be said for power supplies.

 

It could just be that once we can power the server/mobo with quality power throughout the stream that clocking becomes insignificant thru the remaining downstream as long as we maintain clean power.  Idea being that there is no need to fix the audio stream which was effected by bad power in the beginning stages of the stream.

[ElviaCaprice]

23 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

I'm sure Roy will speak for himself but we will both be powering our servers with the SR7 and is the driving need for the 12v.  So good clean power is being provided. 

 

The effort then is to determine benefits from better clocks upstream to the endpoint and to what end. To the NAS or router? The jury is still out but once Roy's server is built we will know more. Although Roy's new server is a bit more than clock upgrades so there's that complexity. 

 

Yes, but you will fail to address still the faults of the regulators on the mobo which create poor power regardless of how clean the original power supply is.  At least so far.

 

I repeat, which you missed.

It could just be that once we can power the server/mobo with quality power throughout the stream that clocking becomes insignificant (to a certain degree) thru the remaining downstream as long as we maintain clean power.  Idea being that there is no need to fix the audio stream which was effected by bad power in the beginning stages of the stream.

 

I will also add as long as those remaining clocks are sufficient enough not to create new jitter/noise.  If I am correct then the streaming chain becomes much more simple and short, server to DAC.

[ElviaCaprice]

I would also like to add that we don't know yet if a $200 clock is any better than a $10 clock.  It just may be that the $10 clock when implemented correctly with clean power is just as good as the $200 one.  I guess we will know soon enough with the ISO Regen.

[ElviaCaprice]

5 minutes ago, romaz said:

Regarding the importance of clean power relative to the importance of clocks, just know that with an SR7 or LPS-1 powering server and each endpoint, these reclocking devices are still making a significant difference.  Because the only difference between a stock SOtM product and an Ultra is the clock, there is no mistaking what a good clock can achieve irrespective of good power.

 

That is true, but it still remains to be seen if the $10 clock is just as effective as the $200 clock.  What was replaced was obviously not sufficient enough.

[ElviaCaprice]

I agree, Roy.  At the moment the sclk EX clocking board is the only game in town for multiple clock replacements.  I am keeping the Adnaco option open and couldn't agree more with you assessment on software flexibility and format versatility. 

I take it your now on hold until your new mobo is built.  Or will you go ahead, now, and send the Adnaco off for updates?

[ElviaCaprice]

14 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Hi,

Stupid question perhaps, but are the clocks in the SoTM products, namely the "ultra" isolation device and the "ultra" DDC $200 clocks? My prob here is the $1000 price point for these boxes whose intention is to mitigate the poor performance of USB audio. The very good F-1 DDC previously blew away most all of the more expensive DDCs, and not only because of the clock. Real world, I know of at least several people who are using DDCs instead of a poor implementation of the USB input on their DACs.

If you been following the thread, you would have read from Hols who compared his SU-1/DAC/i2s with the tXUSBUltra/DAC and found them to be equivalent (NOTE:  SU-1 had stock power supply).  Both coming from a sms-200. 

Guess we will find out more about clock of the SU-1/i2s and the ISO Regen soon enough.  If the Iso Regen does not degrade sound, in fact improves SQ after a tXUSBUltra then we will have an answer about the effectiveness to pricing of the sclk EX clocking board. 

But as it stands, it's the only game in town, sclk EX.

Strangely enough, Hols did find that the tXUSBUltra in conjunction with the SU-1/i2s was worse sounding than with the tXUSBUltra removed.  Can't explain that one.

[ElviaCaprice]

5 minutes ago, justubes said:

 

Fwiw, i had also found the estimeed crystek cchd957 to sound bright and harsh even the good specs and phase noise, go figure.

 

This is interesting.  Since this is the clock in the ISO Regen and SU-1/I2S.  Although I've never heard someone express the SU-1 I2S as being bright and harsh.  Good power supplies can go a long ways also.  Guess will find out soon how the ISO Regen performs with this clock.

[ElviaCaprice]

Thanks, Roy, well that is disappointing to hear, concerning the Adnaco, but not surprising.  Glad your still going to follow thru with the mods/test.  Can only hope the mods transform the Adnaco into an equal compatriot to Ethernet/renderer.