A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[zoltan]

I'm not sure which forum is the best to ask my question but I found a lot of talk here about power supplies.
My question is basically, are there any specs for a good DC cable? Twisted pair or coaxial? Shielded or not? Copper or silver? Or anything else?

 

I have a Uptone JS-2 PSU with the supplied Belden 9418 which seems like a decent cable but I guess one could do better than a 2 dollar/m cable. Also, I need one that is longer than the one I have now. So I will go DIY. 

 

It seems that the Oyaide plugs are the way to go but any specific recommendation on the cable. Oyaide or something else? I haven't been able to find a DC cable 'shootout' on the internet. Any thoughts are welcome.  

[zoltan]

7 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Your dreams have come true!

 

 

Great! Thanks!

[zoltan]

9 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 All 3 power supplies are plugged into my BPT BP-3.5 Signature Plus balanced power transformer.  I definitely preferred the LPS-1 over the JS-2.  Initially, I found the LPS-1 and sPS-500 to be close, with perhaps a slight edge to the LPS-1. 

4

Given standard mathematical operations, we can conclude that SPS--500 is clearly better than JS-2 in this situation? 
I'm asking because I have a JS-2 powering an SMS-200 ultra and thinking of buying the SPS-500. How would you describe the differences between JS-2 and SPS-500? 

[zoltan]

#auricgoldfinger, thank you for your reply. I will probably buy a SPS-500. No chance to find used at this stage I guess, so I will have to go for a new one.

I have read good things about the Pangea AC cord. Have you tried any other aftermarket AC cord on the SPS?

[zoltan]

5 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

That's a good question.  I'll try it the next time I'm A/B testing.

Then I'll wait before placing an order for the sps-500

[zoltan]

17 hours ago, romaz said:

 

As a further example of how important this is, I have been testing clock cables of various price points and length.  Using various inexpensive DigiKey clock cables from the same manufacturer of various lengths, as you go from 20 to 40 cm in cable length, the SQ degradation is clearly audible.  This is why I had to send my gear back to SOtM.  Because they didn't have the really short clock cables in stock, they ended up using much longer clock cables in my build which I ultimately deemed as unacceptable.  Moreover, as I have tested identical length clock cables with my REF10 from companies like Pasternack ($40), Blue Jeans Cables (<$20), and Black Cat ($250) against the 700 Euro Habst clock cables that I purchased with my REF10, unfortunately, the differences are quite significant with respect to HF harshness and a very flat sound.  Not that the cheap cables sound horrible but when you replace them with the Habst, there's simply no wanting to go back to those cheap cables.  This is where those external clock doubters have a leg to stand on when they make their claims that external clocks don't add anything.  Cable length and cable quality DEFINITELY matters.

 

3

Hi Romaz,
You have found that shorter cables improve the sound quality. I wonder what length is your Habst. The shortest on their site is 50cm but for me even 30 or 25 would do. Do you think it is worth trying to order that length? 

Also I wonder if placing the MC3+USB on the Ref 10 would have any bad effects. That would give the chance to use the shortest cable. 

Thanks,

Zoltan 

[zoltan]

6 hours ago, romaz said:

I can't take credit for this as the idea was proposed by Rob Watts but it certainly improves sound considerably (much less glare), however, the Habst still sounds better.

1

Thank you. I will definitely try the ferrite cores. When I have sufficient funds I will probably get the Habst. It would be good to know however, how it fairs against other similarly priced high-end cables like Stealth which has some patented impedance matching.
http://www.stealthaudiocables.com/products/varidig.htm

[zoltan]

2 minutes ago, afrancois said:

Up until now I've used 5 sheets of 3M AB5100SHF. Let me tel you where I put the sheets:

- underneath the rubber feat of every LPS-1 (glued to the surface on which the LPS-1's are resting)

- on top of every LPS-1 (glued)

- underneath and above the motherboard of my headphone amp (Violectric V200)

- on the back of my AQVOX (glued) 

- inside and on the back of my MC3+ USB

- on both sides of my ISO Regen

- and the biggest benefit of all : on the wall close to all the spaghetti wiring

 

I should probably try to make a picture so that you can see what I mean.

 

While modding my MC3+ USB brought a lot of transparency, the 3M sheet brought a lot of body while keeping the fine details.

I think we don't realize enough that the spaghetti solution with all the different components and power supply wiring it has become quite susceptible to EMI/RFI.  Anyhow this seemed to be the case in my system which is located in the garage (except the DAC and headphone amplifier)

 

 

So you didn't use them on any component parts, such as the clock in the MC3+USB? 
Also, as you say that the biggest effect was on the wall near the cables, I was thinking perhaps carefully wrapping the cables or use paper tubes wrapped in 3M sheet and thread the cables through them. What do you think? 

[zoltan]

4 hours ago, afrancois said:

No the sheets are never in direct contact with electronics. I've concentrated on the influence of EMI/RFI entering the devices. Wrapping the paper around the cables would be hard to do because it cracks.

I forgot to mention that the 3M is also around my network isolator EMO-EN30, underneath the sPS-500 and underneath the sMS-200 ultra.

The MC3+ USB is completely shielded. I've even covered the hole that was there as a result of the SMPS removal.

3

Thanks, that seem quite logical that if you shield the whole device, you won't need to shield different parts inside. 
I have an eABS sheet from SOtM (all the remainings that they didn't use in my Ultra) and I have a feeling that I will use it up quickly.  3M sheets are much cheaper, so I'm inclined to order some. I'm just wondering why you chose the 5000-series when the 7000-series seems to be more suitable for our needs. Yes, most expensive but not that much more. A quote from 3M's site: "Improved lower frequency absorber vs. the AB5000 or AB5000S series (@ < 1 GHz)"

 

[zoltan]

14 minutes ago, acaro said:

A question to those who have the trifecta and the dlink switch. How are you powering the dlink?  Does the sms-500 have enough power to do the trifecta and the dlink? I have the the sms-200 ultra and the sms-500 (thinking about the txUsb), but don't wsnt to buy yet another power supply.

My SOtM modded Dlink switch is powered by Uptone JS-2 at 5V, a bit of an overkill but I had it around already. The SMS-200 Ultra is powered by SPS-500 at 12V. 

You cannot power all from the SPS-500 as you can only set it to one voltage output at a time.  

[zoltan]

On 11/29/2017 at 9:01 PM, afrancois said:

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/kits-modules-diy-radiateurs/heat-sink-aluminium-black-100x50x40mm-p-9260.html

 

For every LPS-1 I use two of these heat sinks.

Why do you need these heat sinks? I don't have an LPS-1 (yet) but this is the first time I've heard of a heat sink on LPS-1s.

[zoltan]

17 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

You don't need em.  Just audiophile overkill/dressing for looks.

Well, outside heatsinks don't do much for the looks, to say the least. I guess you can achieve an operating temperature of the components themselves (not the chassis) a few degrees lower operation temperature (if at all) but that will result in no audible improvement. It may extend product lifetime from 15 years to 16 years. Even my rack is different since 16 years ago... 

[zoltan]

1 minute ago, mozes said:

I did upgrade my tX-USBultra to UPOCC silver wiring, but I didn’t do any A/B comparison as it was not possible anymore. Based on my sonic memory, it is a step up in SQ, but can be tricky to assess as you need to breakin the tX again.

Did you upgrade yourself or had it upgraded? I just bought one, should arrive in a few days but I'm not sure I want to send to Korea for this upgrade only. 

[zoltan]

1 hour ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

The eABS-200 makes a noticeable improvement inside the tx-USBultra.  SOtM can do it for you when you place the order.  It is also easy to do yourself if you want to buy an entire sheet.  I posted a photo somewhere in this thread of where the strips should be placed.

 

Do you remember how long ago it was (a rough estimate)? It is just not possible to find things anymore on this thread of 264 pages 

[zoltan]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

http://www.sotm-audio.com/files/Accessories/sCLK-EX/sCLK-EX_Operating_Instructions_Rev1.5_EN.pdf

 

3. The Detect LED turns on once the clock output synchronizes to the external master clock input. The Detect LED located next to the Operate LED and
the Operate LED blinks once the sCLK-EX operates normally. 

Is this the same for the SMS-200 ultra, I wonder?

[zoltan]

53 minutes ago, Hauser said:

Just a word of caution here.  Small, heavily customised projects generally end up costing a similar amount to commercial off the shelf options; those also have the added benefit of better re sale.  Roy (romaz) did not find much difference in sound between his own customised effort and the Innous Zenith.

 

Martin

Very true! I have probably lost more on DIY (at least in percentages) than on buying and selling off the shelf stuff over the 25 years in this "business". But then again, it is what this hobby is about for some (of us). 
I didn't mean losing money. The other. 

[zoltan]

18 minutes ago, welldone said:

SR4 is more expensive than LPS 1.2 actually. I'm do curious about the SPS 500 too. Which one is the best power supply among those ones (SR4, LPS 1.2 and SPS500)?

I don't have the LPS1.2 but I have the SPS-500, an SR3 and an Uptone JS-2. I prefer the latter two on the SMS-200 ultra.

I must admit though that I have not experimented with HQ power cords on the SPS-500 and I still use the stock short DC cable that came with the power supply. In my comparison, I used the same power cord for SR3 and an equally short DIY DC cable for the SR3.  

[zoltan]

@flkin Wow! Great system! Thanks for the review. I wonder how hi-fi magazines survive if we can read such fantastic reviews online. 

My front-end is very similar to what you found best, except the Antipodes and power supplies. I use a passive PC (in Streacom DB4) Win 10 I built myself. It is not optimized so my conclusion from your review is that perhaps it is something worth looking at. At the same time, given the price of an Antipod, do you think that difference was significant enough (compared to a Macbook) to justify $7500? 

 

I have also experimented with some network isolation to avoid the need to optimize the server. I have a few Acoustic Revive RLI-1s that work nicely but the best so far was a FMC between the SOtM modded switch and the SMS-200 ultra where the receiving side is powered by the SPS-500. It seems to isolate noise prior in the chain so well that putting the D-Link switch back to its original SMPS power supply didn't even matter.  

Recently, I friend brought over two more MC3+USBs and thus we cascaded three. It is an incredible difference compared to one and I am torn between getting one more MC3+USB or a Habst clock cable, nearly the same price. I am just going to order Canare clock cables that are optimized up to 12GHz https://www.sportsvideo.org/2017/04/25/nab-2017-canare-intros-12g-coax-for-4k-uhd-television-signals/
I wish I (or anybody else) had a chance to test this against the Habst. Speaking of the Habst, I technically can't understand what that separate gound does. A digital 75 ohm signal is supposed to be coax in geometry and have a 'signal' as the centre core and 'shield' as gound. Does anyone have a clue how it works in Habst?

 

Lastly, can I ask what software you used and what settings? Upsampling? Filters? Dither? etc,
 

[zoltan]

23 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Please keep in mind the MC3+USB can be further improved by purchasing a DC only version at the time of order.

 

The meanwell smps that’s fitted in the Mutec reduces the sq of the unit. The main problem of the DC version is to maintain 6V and not exceed 6.2V. This is a challenge in itself.

 

My theory is you need more MC3 to squash the noise from the meanwell smps. Go DC and you can save a stage.

Where did you see such an option? Can you share a link? I have removed the SMPS myself but I am not aware of any other option than doing it DIY.

[zoltan]

20 minutes ago, Confused said:

Also, how much of an influence does the Habst ground connector make?  Are there better cables than the Habst that would actually not perform as well overall because the Habst ground connector is making a big influence?

 

 

3

Can somebody point out what this ground connector does?? A clock signal has the 'hot' and the 'ground' both of which are already connected to the BNC plug of a Habst cable each end. This extra ground baffles me. 
 

[zoltan]

1 minute ago, One and a half said:

This info should really come from Julian. You can ask the factory for dc but you must maintain the voltage below 6.2V. If it goes higher, the mc is fried and no warranty. It’s easy for the factory to tell when it happens.

I'm pretty sure Julian expressed it (although implicitly) that no such option is available for the MC3+USB. I have done very extensive research on this option before I opened mine. 

Also, DC 6.2V (I measured also 6.23) only works if it is not clocked to the Ref 10, in which case only 5.7V or so is the max. voltage, otherwise it will not synchronise, the blue light will just keep on blinking. I should really post it in the MC3 thread though.  

[zoltan]

@SwissBear Thank you for trying to clarify. I think grounding/earthing a SMPS is a slightly different story but I may be wrong. Anyhow, I must admit that this earth and ground and ground loops and grounding boxes and floating ground and all this stuff is not very clear to me at least.
Most people, however, don't realize that the 'negative' (i.e. ground) of all their cables - interconnects, digital, clock, etc are all common and all connected to earth too, as long as your system is connected to earth. It is easy to test just by touching the ground pin on a wall socket and any ground terminal of any of your connections with a multimeter. That is why I prefer balanced as that is different but it is not always an option.    

[zoltan]

19 minutes ago, Kritpoon said:

 

 

 

The second ground connection is also a mystery to me and @flkin, but we have experimented in 2 ways: 1) hot unplug the ground cable from the REF10 2) Turn off the output of REF10 that's connect to the ground plug. In both experiments, we found that without the ground plug connection, the degradation of sound was very apparent and easily heard. As for the SQ impact @flkin might have to chime in, since I was the one unplugging and turn-on/off the output with @flkin in the listening position. But from where, I am standing (in front of the equipments rack) the sound is easily distinguishable for connect/ not connected of the ground cable.

A take that the ground connection is also a BNC plug then although in the photo shared by @rickca seems different.
I also assume the ground plug didn't have a central pin of any kind. 
It is even stranger that switching the clock output on and off made any difference. Luckily Munich is close and we may be able to clarify these with the Mutec engineers.  

[zoltan]

I was wondering if someone might want to open a 'clock cables' thread. This discussion is in several threads now.

  

[zoltan]

10 minutes ago, mozes said:

My plan is to squeeze out a bit more performance from the OP-14. First step is to find a high quality 50Ohm BNC cable for a relatively sensible price.

Let us know if you find something reasonable. For now I am going to order this one from Japan https://item.rakuten.co.jp/auc-treevillage/8-2-bncp-bncp-06/ as I have not found anything else under several hundred dollars.