A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[tboooe]

Jplay has been a long time advocate for using a separate Ethernet card to connect their Audio PC and Control PC.

 

I was about to say the same thing. When I was using Jplay, I used a USB to Ethernet adapter to essentially create another nic. The sound was very very good. I now use HQP and NAA and was thinking of repeating this experiment except with a real second NIC card.

[tboooe]

Well, I may have posted prematurely. With two different subnets, I now cannot get HQPlayer to see the microRendu as NAA on the other subnet. Not sure how I managed to get it to work one time the other day, but now the only reliable solution appears to involve network bridging, which does have the merit of being simpler, with no need to run any 3rd-party DHCP server app on the HQPlayer PC.

 

Did you set the nic attached to the NAA as primary? This is something Jplay recommends to ensure that the control pc knows where to look so to speak for the audio PC.

[tboooe]

 

I also tried the bridged setup under W2012 R2. I do get tracks played with MC20 to the SOTM200, but only with severe stuttering. I have do some more work on that

.

Has anyone got this bridge working with Server R2 and microrendu? If so would anyone be willing to take pity on a networking noob and help me to implement this?

[tboooe]

I will be trying this on a Windows 10 Pro device later this week. I'll let you know how I fare.

Isnt the crux of the issue that the microrendu does not allow you to manually specify IP and subnet? If this was allowed, then at least we could have a direct setup with 2 separate NICs like how Jplay recommends it which I have successfully implemented in the past.

 

I think someone mentioned having to run a DHCP server on the windows machine to make this work in bridge mode?

 

Total aside, I have no idea why microrendu wont allow manual configuration of the network parameters. I asked this on the Sonore forum. Lets see what Jesus mentioned.

[tboooe]

I mentioned this to Jesus on this thread last week and this was his response:

 

"I disagree, this is a complex server side / network based solution that can work with the microRendu...These specific solutions are best sorted out by the interested parties."

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/novel-way-massively-improve-sq-sms-200-and-microrendu-31110/index7.html#post620664

Complex??? Much cheaper and less sophisticated network devices allow manual editing of network parameters. I think its more of an issue that Sonore either dont want to do it or dont know how to do it.

[tboooe]

I am totally confused (nothing new!). So in Server R2 I can do something called NIC Teaming but not Bridging. Would a NIC Teaming allow me to do a direct connection like Bridging?

[tboooe]

Look at my earlier post : for W2012 in GUI mode : you can easily bridge 2 NIC's the same way as you can under W10, by using it's windows/system32/control.exe.

 

But soundwise I could only hear stuttering: same problem as I now also have with W10.

 

The SOTM200 is similar to the mRendu : you cannot give it a static IP-address : only DHCP works.

 

Thank you @Peter_T I will give it try shortly.

[tboooe]

No surprise. I retired my FMCs over a year ago for the same reason. The EMOsystems isolation transformer sounds best here.

 

I will now be retiring mine also which is great as it will free up my LPS-1.

 

Such an interesting thread. Here is the experiment I am going to do to test between Fiber, FMC, and plain old cat6 cable.

 

1. Use a dual fiber nic (intel XA520 DA2) in my server PC to direct connect to a microrendu (which I will be purchasing shortly thanks to Clipper!) via FMC

2. Direct connect to microrendu with cat6 cable (server PC still connected to network via fiber swtich)

3. Direct connect to microrendu with cat6 cable + EMO systems isolation transformer (server PC still connected to network via fiber swtich)

4. Remove all fiber and just use cat6 with and without EMO systems (ideally i would need a second one to put between my server and switch but this little experiment is getting expensive!)

 

I will say that I like the sound with my Cisco SG300 fiber switch in between my wireless bridge and music PCs (HQP and NAA) but I have not heard an all copper network with the EMO in there.

[tboooe]

Wait a minute. This is a Roon only thing? Oh fiddle sticks, back to the drawing board for me.

This is not a Roon only thing. Bridging would work for any audio setup that transmits music via Ethernet. As mentioned Jplay has been advocating this kind of direct connection for years.

[tboooe]

Your assumption is incorrect - I am using the mRendu in NAA mode no problems bridged. (see my earlier posts in this thread) NOTE... You do realise you have to toggle the network switch in HQPlayer, as now the mRendu aka NAA endpoint is local to the same machine as HQPlayer ?

 

What network switch are you referring to? I thought that option was only to allow another device to control HQP remotely. For example if Roon was running on another PC.

[tboooe]

I have the same problem (after it worked fine the first time I tried it) : see my previous post

 

 

I have tested 2 other computers (both with their Mobo NIC and the same Startech USB-LAN-adapter).

With a fanless Shuttle computer under W10 : same stuttering result. With my Lenovo Z50 notebook under W10 : no stuttering. With my NUC under W2012R2 : stuttering.

 

 

I still do not know what the reason could be. Maybe I should try a PCIe card with a LAN-port?

@Peter_T by any chance do you have any other devices attached to another USB port aside come the USB to Ethernet adapter? I believe USB traffic can only occur through one port at a time so if multiple ports are sending data simultaneously and continuously like when listening to music this could be the cause of the stuttering. I had a similar issue when I was using a USB to wifi adapter and connecting DAC via USB to my pc. I think the USB implementation on the PC plays a big part. Just a thought.

[tboooe]

Yeah I guess those whacky guys at Jplay were way ahead of their time!

[tboooe]

Can anyone confirm if "Y" shaped, dual conduit cables work with the Microrendu via the data line only? I have not made a successful connection using the RAL Prophecy USB.

 

*None of the DAC's I currently own require a VBUS connection and neither does the Offramp 5 that sits between components.

 

is there a known method to handshake the Mrendu with a data only connection?

 

I recently demo'd a microrendu with a split usb cable. In my case, my USB converter needs the 5v for handshake only. Once the handshake was established I was able to remove the 5v supplied from my lps and the microrendu worked fine.

[tboooe]

Something else to consider with USB to anything adapters is the power settings. I believe when I used one I had to make sure the USB power saving setting was turned off.

[tboooe]

Success!

 

I was also using an USB 3,0 Lan Adapter in my bridge which was:

 

1) Not allowing me to connect with HQPlayer to the mR in NAA mode.

 

2) Negatively impacting the through-put of my music pc. (Upload less than 1 Mbit)

 

I setup another bridge with an on-board wireless NIC and the mR connected directly to my on-board ethernet NIC and presto, it works like a charm!

 

Really happy now.

 

Awesome! Perhaps for the benefit of others can you post detailed steps you took to achieve this?

[tboooe]

While my client naa is Intel nuc but running audiolinux. After music stopped, I opened settings and saw music device still highlighted and I would press OK to pick it up again naa connection. Then I could play another 1 hour plus before it would stop again. As you said very predictable behavior. If I don't click settings I got to continue clicking the song in Playlist until it plays again

 

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

Hmmm, have you checked if you have any power / energy saving modes active for the OS or wireless controller?

I had a very similar issue when I was using a USB to ethernet adapter to act as my second nic when I was using Jplay last year. This nic was attached to a wireless AC bridge. The adapter would essentially power down after some period of time. The only way to get it to operate correctly again is to unplug and plug it into the USB port again. The PC using the USB adapter was running Server 2012 R2 Essentials, AO, and Fidelizer. I messed around with all kinds power settings and even bought a second ethernet adapter but could never resolve this issue. I never had a problem with the internal nic. I know not the answer you were looking for.

 

BTW, off topic but I will be trying out Audiolinux as my NAA as well soon to compare it to Server R2 +AO + Fidelizer. This will be running on an i3-5015u mobile cpu.

[tboooe]

Goto the command line and run tracert followed by the address of your sotm-200. This will show you the network path taken between your PC and the sotm-200.

 

 

Question regarding tracert...i just used this command from my HQP server PC to the NAA PC. These PCs are connected by a fiber switch. When I run the tracert command, the switch does not show up in the results. The results table just shows the IP address of the NAA PC. When I try this command from/to other PCs in my house, I get the same result. I know for a fact I have a wireless router/switch in my network.

 

As I understand it, some of my switches and routers is not decrementing the TTL fields of an IP datagram. I need to look into how to activate this feature.

[tboooe]

In reading more about tracert, it seems if you are running this command for devices on your local network, the path through switches wont show up. Tracert will only show hops through a router. Therefore, unless I am totally wrong (highly likely) the tracert command wont be helpful for us to verify that this bridging method is working.

[tboooe]

This is as expected, switches shouldn't show up, routers do. If you have a one hop response between the HQplayer server and NAA that is good to know.

 

If you can get to a command line on your NAA you can try the same.

Thank you. So what would be a surefire way to test if the bridging approach is working as intended, i.e. data being sent directly to the downstream device (NAA, microrendu, etc) versus through the switch? I guess MACs could test by removing the connection to the switch since MACs have a DHCP server. However, how would a Windows person test?

[tboooe]

Just wait for the microRendu 2 Super Edition with Femto Clocks and Direct Connect Hyper Drive Technology. ...In black.

In all seriousness is a new version of the microrendu in the works? I doubt Sonore will confirm or deny at this point but I have read some references on the web alluding to this.

[tboooe]

Am I one of the only ones thinking the WiFi-route holds great sonic potential? Perhaps, as has been mentioned before, it's too simple a connection-approach (instead more commenly referred to as "convenience") to gain significant following - prior to sonic evaluation, that is..

 

Have yet to try out bridged LAN-connection, I must add.

 

So to be clear you are referring to using wifi for the connection from your PC to the rest of your network? If so, there has been some discussion on this and as all things in this hobby there is no clear consensus on if wifi or wired is better. I personally tried to have the best of both worlds by having a wireless bridge in my music that is wired to my PC running HQP and Roon.

 

Back on topic and regarding wifi, perhaps try connecting the SMS200 or microrendu to a wireless bridge? I guess that would defeat the purpose of a direct connection but maybe having the PC communicate with the SMS200 or microrendu via wifi even if its through a bridge may be better than a direct ethernet connection?

[tboooe]

Success! I got this to work but perhaps in a different configuration that what others have tried. In my case, I do not have a SMS-200 nor a microrendu. I use an i3 based mini pc to act as the NAA. This pc runs Server 2012 R2 Essentials. This pc is already set up with a fixed IP address. In my server pc running HQP and Roonserver I have an X520 DA2 dual fiber NIC. Here is my network setup:

 

Server PC:

Port #1 - fiber directly connected to Cisco SG300 fiber switch

Port #2 - fiber to FMC to NAA pc

 

Cisco SG300 fiber switch:

Connected to wireless bridge via cat6 cable

 

Dlink DAP 1650 wireless AC bridge:

wireless connection to Netgear Nighthawl R7000 AC router upstairs where NAS is attached.

 

At least for me, I got the direct connection to my NAA pc working without any problems. Once I installed the dual port fiber NIC, I made sure Port #1 could communicate with the rest of my network and that I could play music. I assigned a fixed IP address to this port just for troubleshooting purposes but it is not required. Without my NAA attached I bridged Port #1 and #2. This took a little bit of time. Once bridged, I connected my NAA pc. Everything worked. I wish I had some good advice for anyone setting this up but for me it just worked without having to change any of the IPV4 settings of the two ports. Things are perhaps a bit more complicated for the microrendu and SMS-200 since you cant directly assign an IP address.

 

I cant yet comment on the sound quality but I did notice my ping times have increased a bit. I noticed there is always 1 ping response to the server pc and NAA pc that is a lot higher than normal. For example, pinging the NAA pc I get:

3ms

3ms

3ms

27ms

 

I'll report back with my listening impressions.

[tboooe]

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but why use bridge mode? When I used to use jplay, I just configured the second card interface as a different network. I would have thought bridging these two interfaces might expose the interface you want isolated to other network traffic.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

You are right. In my case where I am connecting two PC's where I am able to edit the network settings I could have used the Jplay approach. The problem for me is then I wouldn't be able to access the second PC remotely. I don't have a monitor or keyboard in my listening room so I use remote desktop.

 

In the case of devices like the microrendu where there is no capability to edit the network settings bridging is required so a DHCP server can automatically assign the IP, subnet, etc. Because of this requirement, most people usually just connect the microrendu to their switch or router. Bridging then doesn't expose it to more or less network traffic. Bridging does however allows the user to bypass the switch or router which seems to have some benefits.

[tboooe]

Strange...my bridge died this morning for no apparent reason. I had to delete and redo it. Another weird thing, I think there are some issues when I try to assign the bridge a fixed IP. When I do this I notice the default gateway of my network gets deleted after I enter it and press ok. Maybe this had something to do with my Roon remote not being very responsive, though music played fine. If I allow the bridge to get the IP address automatically everything seems to work better. I do not know if this is coincidental or not, but when I let the bridge get its IP address automatically, it always gets the address of the port connected to my network I had previously defined manually.

 

I also did a test this morning to verify that music was being direct from HQP to the NAA through the direct connection versus back through my network which would of course defeat the purpose of this tweak. Unfortunately the command tracert is not very useful because it only shows network routes through routers and not switches. So what I did was play a music file locally on my HQP PC, remove its connection to my network and verify that music still played. Luckily it did so that means the direct connection is working as intended.

 

Anyway, for anyone having trouble perhaps do not manually assign an IP address the bridge?

 

 

EDIT...it seems my bridge dying has something to do with switching back and forth from GUI to Minimal Server mode with Audiophile Optimizer. It just happened again. Odd.

[tboooe]

After listening to a direct connection to my NAA PC here are my thoughts:

 

Positives

As others have mentioned there is definitely more clarity. I am able to hear more nuance and detail in the music.

There seems to be more energy in the music. The sound is also bigger. Certain high notes like guitar strings sound very well defined and immediate.

What I like most is how my soundstage is more layered giving it a 3d effect. Vocals are more forward in the soundstage while instruments "appear" further back. Very cool.

 

Negatives

Admittedly, I am more of a wannabe tube guy. I prefer sound a bit on the warm and lush side. The energy and definition the direct connection provides can at times sound a bit harsh to me.

I am also more a mid venue kind of guy in that I prefer the music to be a bit further away from me versus right in front of me. The vocals moving forward in the soundstage makes me feel like the singer is too close to me.

 

Overall, I would say this direct connection definitely changes the sound. At this point I am not convinced if the changes are right for me though.