A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[baconbrain]

Right, except in that thread you explicitly state that direct connection does not work for microRendu as HQP NAA. As I reported yesterday, with the Manage Virtual Interfaces bridging technique, I got it to work with NAA.

 

But now I have a different problem--which I will either post in another thread or phone you about:

 

This morning I decided to update the OrbiterOS on my microRendu from 2.2 to 2.3. Now after updating, the mR is still seen, but in the App Switcher HQP NAA shows "Unknown" and grey instead of "Active" and green. No amount of restarting NAA, uninstalling/reinstalling NAA, rebooting or power cycling of mR will solve it.

 

And of course during this I switched back to a standard Ethernet switch/router connection (including deleting the virtual bridges, etc.). Again, the mR is seen and other modes can show "Active" and green. It is just that since upgrading OrbiterOS to 2.3 I can not get NAA to work at all. Very frustrating as my short listening last night with the direct connection (and mR powered by UltraCap LPS-1 of course) sounded fabulous!

 

Hope there is an easy answer to this.

 

Thanks,

 

--Alex C.

Were you able to find a work around? Would be interested in knowing how things turned out.

 

I would like to try a similar setup with the mR in NAA mode directly connected to a Win10 PC running Roon Server and HQP.

 

Thx!

[baconbrain]

Sonore acknowledged that they had temporarily disabled NAA function in the update I had gotten that day. They fixed it the next day. Just update to the now most current version of OrbiterOS.

Perfect, appreciate the info!

[baconbrain]

I broke the bridge (temporarily) to show you my settings for each NIC (as an example).

 

Also, the rest of my network is on a 192.168.1.* numbering scheme.

 

See attachments.

 

Then just select both NICs, right click on one and choose Bridge Connections.

 

Note: the private IP address the network bridge is pulling (at the moment) is 192.168.1.231. The microRendu is pulling 192.168.1.218.

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32336[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32337[/ATTACH]

 

I am courious as to your numbering scheme for the l217-V adapter which I am assuming is the one connected to the mR? Any particular reason why you chose the subnet, etc., shown?

[baconbrain]

Great, thx for the reference links.

 

One more question. Are you using the mR in NAA mode and is HQplayer running on the same pc which you have setup the network bridge?

[baconbrain]

Yes to both questions.

 

I have HQPlayer (along with RoonServer, Audiophile Optimizer, and Fidelizer) running on the same pc with the 2 NICs that are bridged.

 

And my microRendu runs in NAA mode.

 

Hmmm, I set up the bridge as shown in your example and can reach the mR via browser. It is currently in NAA mode.

 

Unforetunately HQPlayer no longer recognizes it. Any idea as to what might be wrong?

 

Thx!

[baconbrain]

Maybe try rebooting the microRendu (if you haven't done that already)?

 

If that doesn't work, maybe try switching to another mode (like Squeezelite) and then immediately back to HQPlayer NAA mode.

Tried both but didn't change the situation. Strange since just about everything else works. I can access the mR also via wireless, iPad, etc., without an issue. Only VNC access to the music pc seems slower than before.

 

If you check the tcp/ip properties V4 for your adaptors within your bridge, do they both have the same Static IP settings? Although I defined mine just like your example, after creating the bridge, they both have the same address settings.

[baconbrain]

Sorry...just got back.

 

Once the 2 NICs are bridged, Windows doesn't let me examine the TCP/IP properties for each adapter.

 

The Network Bridge does allow me to check its TCP/IP properties.

 

I'm attaching some screenshots in case they help.

 

What OS are you using?

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32387[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32388[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32389[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32390[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32391[/ATTACH]

Thanks for the screenshots. That reflects exactly how mine looks. What throws me off somewhat is this article: How to set up and manage a Network Bridge connection on Windows 10 | Windows Central, which adds the addtional step of assigning a static ip address to the bridge once windows has created it. For my setup (Standard Windows 10) it doesn't matter either way. HQPlayer refuses to recognize the device.

 

Perhaps there is some Windows service getting in the way on my pc which you have disabled via optimizer, etc.? I have also noticed that the bridge really pulls the brake on the upload speed from the pc to the internet. (by a factor of 10!)

[baconbrain]

So what exactly is happening?

 

What are the settings for each NIC before you create the bridge?

 

Once you create the bridge, what happens? What does an ipconfig command show?

I setup each NIC exactly as you have in your screenshots with the exception of my specifics (192.168.178.x) for the NIC which should access the internet. I then create the bridge and it grabs an IP adress from the Router. The ipconfig looks good. (just like it should)

 

Thx for your patience with this and really appreciate the help. Must be getting late in Chicago?

[baconbrain]

Success!

 

I was also using an USB 3,0 Lan Adapter in my bridge which was:

 

1) Not allowing me to connect with HQPlayer to the mR in NAA mode.

 

2) Negatively impacting the through-put of my music pc. (Upload less than 1 Mbit)

 

I setup another bridge with an on-board wireless NIC and the mR connected directly to my on-board ethernet NIC and presto, it works like a charm!

 

Really happy now.

[baconbrain]

Awesome! Perhaps for the benefit of others can you post detailed steps you took to achieve this?

 

Not wanting to take credit for the hard work of others, here a bit more detail as to my system and the steps I took, with quotes/links to the references used;

 

My music PC is currently running a standard Windows 10 build with a Gigabyte GA-Z170N Gaming 5 Mobo. The motherboard has an on-board Killer E2200 Ethernet NIC, 11ac 867 Mbps dual band wireless controller, and USB 3.1. connectivity.

 

Initially I attempted to set-up a Network Bridge utilizing an DLock 3.0 USB to Ethernet Adapter. Regardless if I set the bridge up with Internet Access via the on-board Ethernet NIC, or the USB adapter (USB 3.0 as well as 2.0), the results were the same. HQPlayer would not recognize the mR in NAA mode and the data through-put (upload from music PC) was in the basement.

 

I then dumped the USB Ethernet Adapter and setup my Internet Access over the wireless controller, leaving the mR disconnected and the on-board Ethernet Port free. I let DHCP assign an IP Address and successfully tested connectivity with full through-put. It should be noted that I placed the wireless controller antenna directly adjacent to my Access Point.

 

I rebooted the PC and then connected the mR directly to on-board Ethernet link and manually assigned an IP and Subnet to the IP V4 properties for the Ethernet NIC (leaving the DHCP assigned wireless settings unchanged) as shown in this thread from Clipper:

 

I broke the bridge (temporarily) to show you my settings for each NIC (as an example).

 

Also, the rest of my network is on a 192.168.1.* numbering scheme.

 

See attachments.

 

Then just select both NICs, right click on one and choose Bridge Connections.

 

Note: the private IP address the network bridge is pulling (at the moment) is 192.168.1.231. The microRendu is pulling 192.168.1.218.

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32336[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32337[/ATTACH]

 

Once that was done, I then established the Network bridge as shown here: How to set up and manage a Network Bridge connection on Windows 10 | Windows Central. It should be noted that it is not absolutely necessary to assign a static IP to the bridge as stated in the article. Internet / LAN connectivity will work with the settings assigned by windows when the bridge is established. I chose to use a static IP as that performs better with the settings of my NAS, etc.

 

Last but not least, I rebooted the PC and then verfied the newly assigned IP address for the mR and successfully connected to it via WebGui. Once I was certain that the mR was responding, I started HQPlayer with fingers crossed and voila, it worked!

 

I can now stream via Roon, HQPlayer, Tidal, and local/NAS library files at 192 / 24 with no stuttering, clicks or other annoyances.

 

Hope this helps and good luck.

[baconbrain]

Baconbrain,

 

How much an improvement in SQ after all was said and done?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

Hi Lionelh2,

 

Since my main amp/Dac is currently being upgraded by the manufacturer, this is a question I really can't answer at the moment, but for me it also about simplifying the signal path. I my particular case, this direct connection between my music pc and the mR takes 2 switches out of the equation, which IMO can only be beneficial.

[baconbrain]

I also able to do this using built-in WiFi. But it is not fully stable. After about an hour or more of playing, hqplayer will suddenly stop if WiFi suffer connection dropout

 

I had the opportunity to do some extended testing last night (3 hours of streaming) and had no issues. Realize that doesn't help with your situation.

 

Your issue sounds to similar to a problem I had with an Auralic Aries. I could stream music for about 20 mins and then it would just stop. You could almost predict it with a stop watch. Unfortunately I never figured out what really caused the problem and ended up selling the Aries.

 

Can you still connect to the mR from the PC which is hosting HQplayer after it stops?

[baconbrain]

While my client naa is Intel nuc but running audiolinux. After music stopped, I opened settings and saw music device still highlighted and I would press OK to pick it up again naa connection. Then I could play another 1 hour plus before it would stop again. As you said very predictable behavior. If I don't click settings I got to continue clicking the song in Playlist until it plays again

 

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

Hmmm, have you checked if you have any power / energy saving modes active for the OS or wireless controller?

[baconbrain]

I already put no turn off monitor or hard disk when plug in power.

 

Perhaps you should check the property setting specifically for the wireless controller. Sometimes you have the option of allowing windows to shut down the device to save power according to power scheme

[baconbrain]

I'm going to steal your quote there, Peter_T, and ask a more general question to the knowledgeable folks here who have reaped the benefits of bridged connections in their systems.

 

When @romaz posted his original tweak, it was in the context of the music server, i.e. Roon/HQPlayer running on the same system as the bridge. But people - in your collective experiments, did you find whether the benefit came from the bridging (i.e. switch avoidance), running the music server on the bridge, or both?

 

I know in my experiments with MinimServer that I reported a couple days ago, when I heard the improvements with bridging, it was immaterial whether the minim instance was on a remote machine (my NAS), or local to the bridge. Is it the same with Roon Core and/or HQPlayer?

 

Also, has anyone got Windows bridging to work cleanly, where the bridge machine itself has full connectivity, both externally to the internet, and internally to the internal network? And - I know this one is harder to "prove" - do Windows bridges correctly pass UPNP and multicast frames?

 

Here my feedback:

 

Question 1 & 2: Benefit clearly comes from bridging. My Roon Server and HQPlayer were runnning on the same PC prior to bridging. Only after the bridge was in place, was there noticeable improvement in the SQ.

 

Question 3: My bridged PC runs completely stable with no evident impact on performance. Regardless if I am upsampling or resolution of file being streamed.

 

Question 4: Haven't tried it yet, but I believe the NAA protocol for the mR has some multicast dependicies.

[baconbrain]

16 hours ago, ted_b said:

Seatrope, nice post!  Well-written, easy to follow and, if it makes me personally succeed in this, a geniune classic! I've never heard of this approach, but makes sense logically.  Maybe folks like AudioPhil (AudiophileOptimzer) could add this to his setup wizard (he already accounts for HQPlayer in a custom shell).  Thanks!  

+1 Great Post Seatrope!

[baconbrain]

Perhaps it is just me, but hasn't this thread really grown into a bit of monster ...?

 

Not sure if possible, but with all of the fantastic info/discussions contained within, I personally think it would be very helpful if it could be broken apart into dedicated sub-topics, etc...  

[baconbrain]

3 hours ago, romaz said:

If all goes well, my reclocked motherboard will arrive from SOtM sometime next week.  At that point, I will report on the impact of removing as many bad clocks as possible from the server and whether this negates or further enhances the impact of endpoints like the mR or sMS-200.  Despite the broad topics that have been discussed, for me, it has still always been about finding ways to improve upon the mR or sMS-200.  Shortly after that, I will be making my exit from this thread (and from posting on forums, in general), at least for the foreseeable future due to other more pressing and time-consuming commitments.  Because we are talking about a few weeks of time, I will likely make no attempt to start any new threads although I certainly won't discourage anyone from breaking this apart into dedicated sub-topics.  It's been a fun ride...

Hope I didn't toss the rock that started the landslide ... 

 

For me, this has been one of the most informative threads that I have read in a long time and really appreciate your contributions. Looking forward to your summary, and return to CA, when time permits.

[baconbrain]

On 7/21/2019 at 6:37 PM, austinpop said:

 

 

Obviously, we won't know until the ER is shipped and in our hands. Here is my experience with the sNH-10G, using not HQP but Roon.

 

It helps to think of the switch not for its switching functions, but as a cleanser/isolator. Obviously, you want to test multiple configurations, but the one I'd start with is this:

• upstream <-> (Ethernet port 1) bridged server (Ethernet port 2) <-> (dirty side) reclocking/isolating switch (clean side) <-> endpoint <- USB -> DAC
• if you have a NAS, it can either be somewhere upstream, or attached to the dirty side. This seems to be a personal preference thing. I prefer my NAS far away upstream in another room.

When used with Roon Core on the server and Stylus EP on the endpoint (both on Euphony OS), bridging the server definitely still sounded better. The unbridged case looked like this:

                                                _________

            upstream <-----------> | Switch |  <---------------> endpoint

                                                --------------

                                                      ^

                                                      |

            server <-------------------------|

 

When the Switch == sNH-10G, I found the bridged case to sound distinctly better. Only time will tell if this result holds for the ER.

 

Are you advocating a typical hub and spoke network topology with a sNH-10G switch as opposed to bridging?

[baconbrain]

Just now, elan120 said:

http://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/home/power-supplies/dc3-power-supply

 

and not only can it be ordered, sometimes he even delivers ahead of schedule!

[baconbrain]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Dr. Jim,

 

There seems to be some confusion. "Bridged" does not mean connecting both ports on the server to the switch. It means connecting one port to the upstream - what you call "In from router" in your diagram - and the other to the downstream. In the simple case (without the switch), that is the Endpoint. The server has to be configured to bridge the 2 ports in the OS - as discussed at length in this thread.

 

Here's where the switch comes in. It needs to be downstream from the bridged server. From your picture, let's number the 2 ports on the server as port 1 and port 2. The bridged configuration, which I expect will sound best for you, is (using your terminology):

• Inbound from router <-> (port 1) Server (port 2) <-> Switch <-> Endpoint.

Make sense?

 

Apologies for coming back to this but if the switch in question is the sNH-10G, why not connect all components directly to it and forfeit any bridging? 

[baconbrain]

4 hours ago, Nenon said:

Until we know it does for sure, the OCD in me is thinking about something like this, but that of course is a huge overkill: 

4 hours ago, Nenon said:

The JS comment I quoted was the best explanation I have seen about the effect of (multiple) clocks. I thought you might be referring to the same post.

 

It's not that complicated. You have electrical noise you need to worry about and you have reclocking. You want the electrical noise to be as isolated from your endpoint as possible. You also want to have the best clocks as close as possible to your Endpoint. That's why @austinpop recommended the following design for you:

---- Inbound from router <-> (port 1) Server (port 2) <-> Switch <-> Endpoint. ---

The bridge configured on the server would isolate your noisy router from your endpoint. And the (audiophile) switch would reclock the signal (with a good clock) just before the Endpoint. It's a much better solution than what you are thinking. 

 

Isolation can be achieved in multiple ways - you can use fiber optic connection, you can configure network bridge on your server, you can use a filter like the gigafoil v4, there are medical ethernet filters like the EMO EN-70HD or Baaske, etc. Some work better than others. Some kill dynamics, others work miracles. There is no consensus what's best, because it is system/environment dependent. My choice at the moment would be a pair of Sonore opticalModules with good LPS and single-mode long range 1Gbps transceivers. But once the EtherRegen is released it would be my choice for isolation. Obviously you need to maintain clean power after the isolation, so good LPS's play an important role there.

 

Reclocking is the second important factor, and that is even more complicated. The quality of the clock is impacted by the quality of the power, cables, vibrations, etc. You need to take really good care of all those factors. 

 

But those are the two major factors you need to worry about. When I looked at your design with the server bridge, first it did not make sense, because the Ethernet traffic would not flow like you thought. Also, your router and endpoint were sharing the same switch, which means there is no electrical noise isolation.

 

When the EtherRegen is released, if what they explain is true, that would be an easy solution to all your problems. And it would simplify things a lot. You put the Router and server on one end and you put the endpoint on the other end. No need for network bridging or anything complex.  I am a bit sceptical the EtherRegen would work so well and do a complete isolation plus excellent recklocking, but we would see. I really hope it does. 

 

Until we know it does for sure, the OCD in me is thinking about something like this, but that of course is a huge overkill: 

 

 

I don't want to sound like a SoTM fanboy but wouldn't a single sNH-10G fulfill all of these requirements  (isolation, clocking, etc.) while simplifying the setup? (one switch, no bridging, ...)

[baconbrain]

11 hours ago, Chopin75 said:

Yah weird why he mentioned his age. But I bet one can build a similar unit at half the cost, though may not look as sleek. 

I would be curious as to how you would quantify that assumption?

[baconbrain]

3 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

£2250 a pop for Phoenix so let's crunch some numbers

 

https://www.audiofest.net/innuos-launches-the-new-phoenixusb-reclocker-at-rmaf-

 

So we're talking about two separate transformers inside the same chassis, correct? And then we'll have to add some Mundorf caps as well

 

http://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/home/power-supplies/dc3-power-supply

£700.00

 

Upgrade to Mundorf capacitor arrays:
add £200

 

Extra separately-regulated outputs:
add £200

 

Hard to get hardwired power cables / clock cables anywhere else.

Hmmm, seems like there might still be a few things missing (i.e. USB reclocker, case, etc) plus the standard DC3 is not built to Statement specs. Of course you will have to build and test it yourself, so please don‘t forget labor ...