SACD Ripping using an Oppo or Pioneer? Yes, it's true!

[greynolds]

I does not need to be bootable with a 105 or a 102.

Or a 103 even.

[greynolds]

I did a little test. I low level format my usb stick. This erases everything. Then I copy the Autoscript folder, then tried it. Nothing happens. So I went back and run rufus-2.11p.exe, this creates a partition with master boot record on the stick and place some boot files on the stick also. Then, I just manually delete all the files on the stick that I can see, and copy the Autoscript folder and tried it, and now it works. The MBR is a hidden partition on the the stick, and this allow the system to load whats on the Autoscript.

 

One can easily mistake a stick to be empty when it actually has an MBR partition in it already. Some new stick being sold with some files in it usually has the MBR partition in it already and one can delete all the files in it, but the MBR is still in it. If I am not mistaken, high level formatting will not delete the MBR partition. Low level formatting is the only way it can be deleted. So all I am saying is that if your stick would not work, then try this rufus-2.11p.exe and create an MBR partition on your stick and see if it works. If it still does not work, then I believe that the machine is probably not compatible. Try it, its not going to hurt.

 

I just double checked the USB thumb drive I'm using for this. It is a 64GB drive and has a single exFAT partition using the MBR partition scheme.

 

What seems likely is that your stick may have initially been partitioned with the GPT partitioning scheme. It's likely that only MBR partition types will work for this. But you definitely shouldn't need to make the stick bootable for it to work.

 

And FYI, in case it wasn't clear, the exchange I was having with Kal was pointing out a typo of his; not poking fun at you.

[greynolds]

This is true, but it is also clear that it needs this MBR to find and load this Autoscript files. Booting does not seem to indicate just loading the operating system, but loading whats on the first sector of the inserted storage device.

The MBR partition in and of itself doesn't make the stick any more bootable (in the sense of loading an operating system from the stick) than a GPT partition would as GPT partitions can also be bootable; the boot drive on the Windows 10 system I'm typing this message on has a GPT partition. GPT is a newer partitioning scheme that has to be used if a partition is larger than 2TB and the Oppo apparently won't read the autoscript files from a GPT partition, which makes sense because the same thing applies to installing firmware updates via USB, as that also requires using a MBR partition. But again, this is just a matter of which partitioning scheme is supported for reading the autoscript files and has nothing to do with the stick being "bootable". Essentially, you're reading too much into the B in MBR standing for "boot".

 

So when using a USB drive for ripping on an Oppo BDP-10x player, it needs to be partitioned with the MBR scheme and formatted with the FAT, FAT32, or exFAT file system; I'm not sure if NTFS is supported.

[greynolds]

This is funny as we are actually talking about the same thing. Its just the definition of the "boot" is what we differ, just as you said, the disk has to have an MBR in it in order for it to work, all I am saying is that it is actually is actually reading this first sector and giving the machine its first instruction from the moment the disk is inserted, and this is what I call booting from the drive. Its just terminology my friend. For me, the booting is its ability to read the first instructions as soon as whatever it is, is inserted and take extra control from then on. Whether it is called MBR or whatever, it does not matter, it is its ability to get the first instruction is what I call booting. Whatever you call this process, booting or whatever, it does not matter, we are talking about the same process, just different name.

The distinction actually is important for two reasons.

 

1) The first is that it's important for people to realize that they can't partition the drive they use for this with GPT partitioning; it needs to be a MBR partition. This is simply because the OS running on the Oppo won't recognize scripts on GPT partitions. Note that the Oppo BDP-10x series will handle media files on drives with GPT partitions.

 

2) The second is that all this talk about booting from the stick simply isn't accurate and only serves to confuse people. The player boots on its own, with or without the stick plugged in. If a USB drive is present, is partitioned with the supported partitioning scheme (MBR), and formatted with a supported file system (FAT, FAT32, exFAT), the OS will finish its boot process and then check for the autoscript folder and run the script (if it's there). The USB stick can actually be inserted into the USB port before or AFTER the player has booted; when using it I've been booting the player up, disabling auto play, and then inserting the USB drive. For this SACD ripping process, you're simply running a script from the USB drive. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

So again, you were right that MBR is important; your reasoning for it just wasn't entirely accurate.

 

FWIW, I'm a beta tester for Oppo. That obviously doesn't mean I'm an expert at all things (Oppo or otherwise), but in this case I'm pretty confident about what I'm saying.

[greynolds]

the used prices for the 10x models can't stay too high. (Right now there are some stupid asking prices...)

 

Prices for used Oppos usually hold their value pretty well, so don't expect huge bargains.

[greynolds]

Thanks for your input, I think your first forum post and your english are perfectly fine

 

But I have some doubts about the results of your listening test. It would mean the data have been degraded while being transported over the network vs the direct connection, as the other factors are the same (same extraction software, same SACD drive). I find that very unlikely. Can you do a blind test to be sure?

Or better yet, do a binary comparison of the ISO files...

[greynolds]

This ripping process is essentially a file copy procedure; something networks are REALLY good at handling. If you aren't getting identical files all 3 ways, I'd suggest your network has some fundamental problems and you should be concerned about using it for anything. The sort of differences you're suggesting are obtained by using the different ways of connecting your Oppo to your PC would have to be equivalent to downloading this post and getting "this is the correct text" one time and "thi5 i5 th3 c0rr3ct t3xt" other times. Unless something goes VERY wrong with the Ethernet error correction, that just isn't going to happen. If the files actually are identical, then there's no way they can sound different when played through the same playback chain.

 

I certainly agree that the equipment used in the playback chain (DAC, USB cable (if using a USB DAC), pre-amp stage, amplifier, even speaker cables) makes a difference. I was very skeptical about USB cables making a difference until a friend and I ran some experiments a while back and found that there were differences; though not enough to matter unless the rest of the system is top notch (this was with a HTPC running JRiver connected to an Oppo HA-1, ATI Signature 6000 amplification, and Revel Salon 2 speakers).

 

But the assertion that ripping SACD's with these different methods makes a difference would mean that every network in the world must be mangling data unless you have something seriously wrong only with yours. I know I've copied files between PC's over my network a number of times and used a compare tool (such as Beyond Compare) to verify the copies are the same and never had any problems.

[greynolds]

I do prefer file 3 vs file 1 and file 2.

 

P.S.The fact that File 1 and 2 are indistinguishable is probably the prove that my network is working fine

 

Your assertion that file 3 sounds different than file 1 and file 2 suggests otherwise if we're to believe that it really does sound different. Until you can demonstrate that the file content isn't the same, I'm going to remain extremely skeptical (to say the least). If the file content IS the same, the only way they can sound different is if the playback chain isn't the same when listening to each.

[greynolds]

May we take this extremely old argument to an extremely new (and more appropriate) thread, please?

 

Certainly agreed. The only relevant part of that discussion here is if using different network connections result in different content in the ripped files as that would theoretically alter the suggested ripping procedure. I would hope that the answer is that the file contents are the same... Anything else would be insane.

[greynolds]

Hi Folks. I am getting ready to take the plunge are replace my Oppo 93 with a unit that will support SACD archiving to a network drive. I'll probably stay with Oppo and do it as inexpensively as possible so I guess it's the 103. Are there any rev levels to stay away from or will the newest units work? Also, if there are other recommendations from other manufacturers that are as good as the 103, I would like to hear from you as well. I'd appreciate it!

All Oppo BDP-10x family players will work and the process still works with the latest firmware, so you don't need to avoid anything like recent firmware versions.

[greynolds]

it's a blind shot, I know, but... any likelihood it will also work with the upcoming Oppos 203-205s?

The upcoming players use a new SoC, so it's unlikely the current files will work and it's unknown if the loophole that's being exploited will still be open.

[greynolds]

Possibly but my network is currently set up for XXX.XXX.3.XXX instead of the typical .1. in the third field of the I.P. What I will try is to configure a standalone network with just a router, the computer and the BDP-103 on it with the ".1." convention and see how that works. I'll keep you all posted!

Before you try that, try the previous suggestion of using "192.168.3.103:2002" instead of "192.168.03.103:2002" - I'm not sure why leading zeroes are a problem, but they usually are.

[greynolds]

You should have a folder named "AutoScript" in the root of the USB stick. Not sure if case matters, but yours is the same as mine.

 

The AutoScript folder should contain 3 files:

 

AutoScript (141 bytes)

AutoScript.TSS (141 bytes)

sacd_extract (353,550 bytes)

 

My USB stick has a single MBR (Master Boot Record) partition and is formatted with the exFAT file system. I vaguely remember that GPT (GUID Partition Table) partitions don't work for this, so I would definitely check what partition type you're using on the USB stick.

 

In recent versions of Windows (7 and up), open the Disk Management utility (you can get to it from Control Panel or by typing "Disk Management" in the app search panel), right click on the appropriate drive in the second section (where they're listed as Disk 0, Disk 1, and so on), choose Properties, and go to the Volumes tab. You'll see the partition type listed in there. If it isn't MBR, then I would suggest re-partitioning the drive with a MBR partition, format it with the exFAT file system, and put the files back onto the USB stick.

 

Hopefully this helps. As @CatManDo said, there isn't any new firmware version for the Oppo BDP-10x players that disables this functionality, so don't worry about being on the latest firmware.

 

Edit: Also, make sure you don't have any other USB drives plugged in to the other USB ports on the Oppo during this process.

[greynolds]

Hmm, I just double checked and my sacd_extract file actually is 352,550, so my previous post has a typo (which I can't fix because the amount of time to edit a post has expired). @bwillcox, I'm not sure how to get the info you have on the file in Windows, but my copy came from an earlier post in this thread, so it's probably safe to assume our files are the same.

 

The contents of the 2 AutoScript files (one with no extension, the other with the TSS extension) are identical.

 

Note that even though the Oppo supports multiple file systems for things like playing content from USB, the file system support for some operations (such as creating log files when Oppo service requests them) are more limited. I don't recall for sure if that's the case for the SACD ripping process, but it's a clear difference between your USB stick and mine. FWIW, the USB stick I'm using is a "sandisk ultra backup 64GB" SDCZ40-064G. If others have confirmed that the FAT32 file system is working for them, then we can ignore that difference. Does the stick you're using have any other partitions by chance?

[greynolds]

I do wish that if it is actually trying and failing that it (the 103) would put something up in the display about the failure...sigh...

Given that it isn't exactly an endorsed feature, I really wouldn't expect that.

 

Maybe I should get into the business of selling USB thumb drives that are ready to go for this task on eBay. Anyone think I could get rich on that? Seriously though, if anyone is truly stumped on how to get it to work, I'd be happy to do a few as long as the cost of the thumb drive and shipping is taken care of. Assuming all goes well, the time involved should be pretty trivial.

[greynolds]

You can't rollback to previous official releases, so only the latest could be re-installed unless the current version that's installed is a public beta.

 

The other thing is to make sure that nothing is plugged into the other USB ports (on the back of the player). For initial testing, even disconnect the USB WiFi dongle, if it's being used. Until you get the tray to open, the network connection is completely irrelevant anyway.

 

Have multiple USB thumb drives been tried? If not, try using a different one.

[greynolds]

No other USB devices connected, network connection is ethernet. I will try a different USB drive. Any suggestions on size and/or brand?

I'm using a Sandisk Ultra Backup 64GB, but I know you've said you're already using a Sandisk. At this point, I'd try pretty much any other USB thumb drive and hope for the best. I know others have had success with FAT32, but try formatting it as exFAT and see if that helps.

 

Oh, and make sure there aren't any extra partitions on the thumb drive as that's a pretty common thing on thumb drives to include extra data recovery software and so on.

[greynolds]

Guys - isn't there a better thread to discuss topics that aren't directly related to ripping SACD's with the supported Oppo and Pioneer players?  There has been a TON of off-topic discussion in this thread the last few days, which is a bit frustrating when you see an email notification of a new post only to discover it's yet another off-topic post.  I'm obviously not a moderator, but it would certainly be appreciated if we could get back on-topic.  Thanks!

[greynolds]

5 minutes ago, haggis999 said:

You are quite correct. Even if you configure MP3Tag to look at DFF files, it fails to recognise the tags that JRiver claims to have stored in those files. I can only speculate that JRiver has found a non-standard way to store tags in DFF files, but this is of little use with other software that is unaware of this unconventional usage. Switching to the DSF format solves that problem.

 

Many thanks for bringing that point to my attention.

JRiver stores tags that can't be embedded in the media file in a "sidecar" file that has the same base name as the media file and a .xml extension.  It's a useful feature, but something that's important to understand if you also access your media files outside of JRiver.

[greynolds]

^ The only way to really make it work is to have the thread starter maintain a few posts at the top of the thread with up-to-date info.  Something like a first post with an overview of what this SACD ripping stuff is all about and then separate posts for each category of player; preferably ALL at the start of the thread before other people start replying (so quickly start the thread and post a few "placeholder" replies), but pointers to relevant posts from the first post also work well.

[greynolds]

1 hour ago, ted_b said:

I wish I could, but the OP (me in this case) on any thread has no more rights to edit than any poster.

Oh right, I forgot that this forum doesn't let you edit posts indefinitely.  That's probably something the site owner could configure and may be worth considering as it would make my suggestion doable.

[greynolds]

^ That's probably best discussed in a different thread.  This thread is about ripping SACD's and most people play the resulting ISO's or extracted individual tracks with software such as JRiver Media Center rather than turning around and burning another disc to play.

[greynolds]

5 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

BTW, will the new Oppo UDP-205 rip an SACD?  It has the newest ESS DAC chips, but I'm unclear on what chips have to match what to do a rip...

No, the 20x series players can't be used for the ripping process at this time because they use a newer decoder chip than the 10x series players and no one has (yet?) figured out how to make it work.

 

I can't really answer your other question - I already had a 103 and 105D on hand when this process was figured out, so I haven't shopped for anything else.

[greynolds]

^ When the other poster wrote "model specific files and manuals", I'm pretty sure he was asking for script files and instructions for setting up the rip process. I don't believe he was requesting owners manuals for the players be posted here.

[greynolds]

^ Has anyone actually had success ripping SACD's to a USB storage device that's local to the player rather than ripping over the network to storage that the computer initiating the ripping process has access to?  I thought ripping to local storage was only an option with the PS3 solution.  I also don't really see the point of ripping to local storage anyway as I doubt it's going to have any tangible benefits such as faster ripping which doesn't appear to be constrained by the network bandwidth but rather the speed the drive operates at.