Does network streaming bypass the computer?

[marksas3]

Maybe this is a dumb question...but what i'm asking is if one is using a mobile device/tablet and streaming from a service like TIDAL, in other words not streaming locally stored files, to a network device or renderer like an AVR via ethernet or wifi, isn't the app just grabbing the files from the online server and passing them through the modem/router and directly to the AVR?

As in my case, my main audio system is an another room than where my Mac Mini is located, and my AVR is connected via ethernet directly from my Airport Extreme base station. Doesn't this nullify having any software like Amarra for TIDAL, Bitperfect, etc etc if you are not streaming directly from the computer itself to another output source?

[Cebolla]

Essentially, yes, except that the network audio player (aka renderer aka streamer) like an AVR, could instead be doing the file 'grabbing' from the internet streaming service's server directly to playback for itself, rather than the app running the handheld device, depending on the streaming technology being employed. The handheld device's app in this case, just tells the streamer where to fetch the file from, so for UPnP network file streaming this would be in the form of a URL.

The situation you described is more akin to how AirPlay works, with the app on an iDevice 'gabbing' the file from the online streaming service as the go between, decoding and (silently) playing the file with the repackaged iDevice's digital audio output being what's is actually streamed by the network audio player.

[realhifi]

Maybe this is a dumb question...but what i'm asking is if one is using a mobile device/tablet and streaming from a service like TIDAL, in other words not streaming locally stored files, to a network device or renderer like an AVR via ethernet or wifi, isn't the app just grabbing the files from the online server and passing them through the modem/router and directly to the AVR?

As in my case, my main audio system is an another room than where my Mac Mini is located, and my AVR is connected via ethernet directly from my Airport Extreme base station. Doesn't this nullify having any software like Amarra for TIDAL, Bitperfect, etc etc if you are not streaming directly from the computer itself to another output source?

 

It does nullify it, yes.

But it sounds like what you are describing is that you are streaming Tidal TO your iPad from the Internet, then it is streaming FROM your iPad TO your AVR over your wireless network. In other words, you have data both coming and going. If the AVR has the streaming service built in, like Spotify, Spotify Connect, Pandora, Tunein Radio, etc. then you are CONTROLLING what is streaming directly from the outside, through your network and into the AVR and you are then only using your iPad as a control point.

[marksas3]

Essentially, yes, except that the network audio player (aka renderer aka streamer) like an AVR, could instead be doing the file 'grabbing' from the internet streaming service's server directly to playback for itself, rather than the app running the handheld device, depending on the streaming technology being employed. The handheld device's app in this case, just tells the streamer where to fetch the file from, so for UPnP network file streaming this would be in the form of a URL.

The situation you described is more akin to how AirPlay works, with the app on an iDevice 'gabbing' the file from the online streaming service as the go between, decoding and (silently) playing the file with the repackaged iDevice's digital audio output being what's is actually streamed by the network audio player.

 

It does nullify it, yes.

But it sounds like what you are describing is that you are streaming Tidal TO your iPad from the Internet, then it is streaming FROM your iPad TO your AVR over your wireless network. In other words, you have data both coming and going. If the AVR has the streaming service built in, like Spotify, Spotify Connect, Pandora, Tunein Radio, etc. then you are CONTROLLING what is streaming directly from the outside, through your network and into the AVR and you are then only using your iPad as a control point.

 

 

Guys thanks for the responses...sounds like in some cases that the mobile device is possibly doing some encoding itself which is what i don't want. Here's what i have and a few scenarios because i'm still a little confused:

 

Upstairs Office: Mac Mini (w/ iTunes library on the Mac), cable modem, airport extreme. All Cat 6 cabling running to first floor network switch.

Downstairs living room: Marantz SR5010 AVR, Sonos Connect, Apple TV3 and B&W speakers. (all devices connected via Cat 6 ethernet cables)

Control Devices: iPhone(s) running either Sonos app or TIDAL app

LG Gpad tablet running either Bubble UPnP, Sonos app or ROON app (Roon desktop software is on Mac Mini)

So, what happens when....

1) using the LG tablet i use Bubble UPnP, i have the 'renderer' set as the Marantz and then use TIDAL as the source files

2) using the LG tablet and running ROON app and the Marantz AVR as the endpoint

3) using the either the LG tablet or an iPhone and running the Sonos app or TIDAL app

4) using an iPhone and the iOS Remote app to control the Office iTunes library on the Mac via Airplay.

 

Again, the Marantz and other devices are not using Wifi but rather ethernet.

[Cebolla]

1) The BubbleUPnP Android app provides the TIDAL server's file track URLs to the Marantz when the Marantz is used as one of its UPnP renderer's, allowing the Marantz to stream directly from TIDAL. In fact BubbleUPnP was the app I had in mind when I described the process earlier. The BubbleUPnP app takes care of connecting to the TIDAL server with the login credentials, searching for TIDAL tracks, etc and only at the moment of playback does it actually request from TIDAL the music file track and resolve its real stream URL (so would include the TIDAL supplied authentication token). It then passes the resolved URL on to the Marantz UPnP renderer allowing the Marantz to stream and play the file track directly from TIDAL.

 

2) The Roon Remote app on the LG tablet is just a remote control for the Roon's user interface, running on your Mac Mini. It's the Roon Server running on the Mac Mini that would be using the Marantz as an 'endpoint', or more precisely using the Marantz as an AirPlay device network zone, not the Roon Remote Android app. So you are actually using the Marantz's AirPlay support to stream from Roon on the Mac Mini.

 

3) The Sonos Controller app is just a remote control to provide a UI for your Sonos Connect, so it would be the Connect device itself that would be connecting to and streaming from the Sonos provided online streaming services, not the app.

The TIDAL iOS app should allow the use of AirPlay with the Marantz, so indirectly stream from TIDAL.

You can't do the same with the TIDAL Android app, since AirPlay, is not built into Android. However, if your LG Tablet is rooted, you can do something similar with a sound capturing app that has network streaming support. The previously mentiond BubbleUPnP is able to do this with its Audio Cast feature. In this scenario the BubbleUPnP app would be running in the background capturing sound from the playback of the TIDAL app, which would be then be made available to be streamed by the Marantz as a UPnP renderer.

 

4) You could use a very similar Marantz AirPlay setup to 2): just substitute iPhone for LG Tablet, iOS Remote app for Android Roon Remote app and iTunes for Roon on the Mac Mini. Could have mentioned also swapping the Marantz as an itunes 'AirPlay speaker' for the Marantz as a Roon 'AirPlay device network zone', which of are exactly the same thing, so (I hope) goes without saying

 

Incidentally, in the situations where an indirect streaming mechanism is used for an online streaming music service, such as with AirPlay & BubbleUPnP Android app's Audio Cast, the sound capture should be bit perfect. In the case of AirPlay, lossless ALAC at a resolution of CD quality 16 bit/44.1 kHz (ie the highest res available from TIDAL) is used for streaming. The only issue with AirPlay is that during streaming some 'bits' can be deliberately dropped in order to keep the sound arriving at the AirPlay speaker in sync with the media playing app on the iOS device (particularly with some video playing apps and/or a poor wifi connection).

[marksas3]

1) The BubbleUPnP Android app provides the TIDAL server's file track URLs to the Marantz when the Marantz is used as one of its UPnP renderer's, allowing the Marantz to stream directly from TIDAL. In fact BubbleUPnP was the app I had in mind when I described the process earlier. The BubbleUPnP app takes care of connecting to the TIDAL server with the login credentials, searching for TIDAL tracks, etc and only at the moment of playback does it actually request from TIDAL the music file track and resolve its real stream URL (so would include the TIDAL supplied authentication token). It then passes the resolved URL on to the Marantz UPnP renderer allowing the Marantz to stream and play the file track directly from TIDAL.

 

2) The Roon Remote app on the LG tablet is just a remote control for the Roon's user interface, running on your Mac Mini. It's the Roon Server running on the Mac Mini that would be using the Marantz as an 'endpoint', or more precisely using the Marantz as an AirPlay device network zone, not the Roon Remote Android app. So you are actually using the Marantz's AirPlay support to stream from Roon on the Mac Mini.

 

3) The Sonos Controller app is just a remote control to provide a UI for your Sonos Connect, so it would be the Connect device itself that would be connecting to and streaming from the Sonos provided online streaming services, not the app.

The TIDAL iOS app should allow the use of AirPlay with the Marantz, so indirectly stream from TIDAL.

You can't do the same with the TIDAL Android app, since AirPlay, is not built into Android. However, if your LG Tablet is rooted, you can do something similar with a sound capturing app that has network streaming support. The previously mentiond BubbleUPnP is able to do this with its Audio Cast feature. In this scenario the BubbleUPnP app would be running in the background capturing sound from the playback of the TIDAL app, which would be then be made available to be streamed by the Marantz as a UPnP renderer.

 

4) You could use a very similar Marantz AirPlay setup to 2): just substitute iPhone for LG Tablet, iOS Remote app for Android Roon Remote app and iTunes for Roon on the Mac Mini. Could have mentioned also swapping the Marantz as an itunes 'AirPlay speaker' for the Marantz as a Roon 'AirPlay device network zone', which of are exactly the same thing, so (I hope) goes without saying

 

Incidentally, in the situations where an indirect streaming mechanism is used for an online streaming music service, such as with AirPlay & BubbleUPnP Android app's Audio Cast, the sound capture should be bit perfect. In the case of AirPlay, lossless ALAC at a resolution of CD quality 16 bit/44.1 kHz (ie the highest res available from TIDAL) is used for streaming. The only issue with AirPlay is that during streaming some 'bits' can be deliberately dropped in order to keep the sound arriving at the AirPlay speaker in sync with the media playing app on the iOS device (particularly with some video playing apps and/or a poor wifi connection).

 

 

Fantastic, thanks so much for the detail, explains a lot.

 

I did a quick test today between Bubble UPnP streaming TIDAL and the Sonos app streaming TIDAL, the difference was pretty noticeable, Sonos sounds so much more compressed. I'm slightly confused by this since Sonos has a setting to not compress the audio, but i'm wondering if it does anyways to avoid dropouts.

Also, when i was purchasing the Sonos components, the salesman tried to tell me that Sonos can't play TIDAL's "high res files"...not sure what he was talking about because i wouldn't consider the FLAC quality service "High Res", but rather CD quality. As far as i know TIDAL doesn't offer anything above that. Either way, BubbleUPnP streaming TIDAL clearly sounded better. I wonder if/when Audioquest comes out with the Beetle DAC if that would improve the quality of the Sonos Connect?