The $3K all in exercize.

[GUTB]

25 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

Fun thread and it reflects my view that it is not necessary to spend huge amounts to get great sound.  It's where I am now.

LS50 $1300

Grace M9xx, refurbished $280

Intel Nuc 5 PPYH $200 (had a leftover windoze license and other bits)

4 tb external drive $100

Generic stands $100

25 lb of lead shot $30

14 ga solid copper speaker wires $15

leftover cables and other bits...

65" LED TV  $700

That leaves $300...

 

That seems very low end. I doubt I would continue to be an audiophile if I was stuck with a system like that forever.

[GUTB]

$3k is tough, not going to lie. You can rely on China for a decent source/DAC and amp but the speakers will be a problem.

[GUTB]

3 hours ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

Yeah buddy, the trolls are feeding.  I am part way on the power supply for the DAC.  A Grace M9xx has a second USB 1.5 amp input so the power comes from a Samsung phone charger and not the computer.  I also tested it with iPad power supply, but couldn't detect the difference.  Anyway, it's not getting 5v off the computer.  Low bass isn't going to happen with LS50's.  I am using 3db of boost @ 43hz and a 2 octave bandwidth to approximate the frequency response of an LS50w in its default mode.  I suspect those who claim great superiority for the LS50w are hearing the bass.  Differences in frequency response are the easiest thing to detect.

 

Those who have spent a lot on their systems don't want to hear that it can be done for less.

 

That system is "very entry level".

 

The Grace M9xx sucks — I base that assessment on the topology:

 

No real power supply.

No critical component isolation.

Junk IC-based output stage.

Digital volume control.

Essentially a toy DAC.

 

My assessment of the LS50:

16 lbs class D mini monitors, not for audiophiles. More for millennials in a near field configuration, bedroom systems, etc.

 

$3k is tough, but that doesn’t mean you have to recommend crap.

[GUTB]

This is pretty challenging so let me take a shot at it. Only new, and I’ll make it planar to appeal to less experienced audiophiles on a tight budget:

 

Speakers: http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_7 ($1400)

Amp: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/lite-audio-dac-phono-stage-mm-mc-c-41/lite-audio-a680-power-amplifier-balanced-xlr-class-ab-250w-x2-p-1323?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($640)

Pre: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/lite-audio-dac-phono-stage-mm-mc-c-41/lite-audio-ls7b-tube-preamp-marantz-7-circuit-valves-pre-amplifier-with-remote-p-1514?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($320)

DAC: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/xiangsheng-valve-amplifier-dac-c-36/xiangsheng-da-05b-asynchronous-usb-dac-dsd-xmos-xu208-ak4495-24bit-384khz-32-192-p-1352?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($230)

Source: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/R-027-MX-1A-MX-1-Android-Lossless-Music-Player-HIFI-DSD-Digital-Turntable-Decoding-4/1070003_32862865398.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.1b871dcco1etGr ($360)

 

After shipping price will likely be a little over $3k. This is a very challenging all-in target price which resulted in a heavy reliance on Chinese components with enough legitimate linear power to grip the Magnepans with authority without resorting to class D junk. A (hopefully) nice Marantz 7 copy for a pre to provide that eloquence and harmonic fullness that may be missing from that large class A/B. The DAC is a crapshoot, selected because of its price and topology (real power supply, real output stage). I wish there was budget left over for a DDC between the streamer and DAC. I wish there was budget for a loom of quality cables. I wish there was budget for power supply.

 

The key to this system are the Magnepans and a serious no-nonsense class A/B + tubed pre.

[GUTB]

Just now, crenca said:

 

Chi-Fi is not High End.

 

When you find western electronics for that price + performance level call me. This is a very challenging budget and compromises must be made.

[GUTB]

Look, here's the thing. Here's a toy DAC (the M9xx):

 

 

Here is a real DAC (Chinese one I linked):

 

 

[GUTB]

3 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

@GUTB  I looked at the photo of your system.  It's gear I wouldn't mind having, but I don't have the desire to spend that much for the small improvement it would provide.  In the end, it's just a couple of bookshelf speakers with all their limitations.  In fact the LS50's are vastly superior and there are tons of reviews out there to prove it.  You would be better off if you had a pair.

 

Your room is tiny, so I can see why you can't utilize a decent pair of full range speakers.  I'm so sorry you are stuck with that space.

 

I am not cheap, tight or poor.  However, my house and most everything in it was destroyed by flooding from Hurricane Harvey last August.  We just bought another house which used up a chunk of our resources.  Furniture is being replaced bit by bit, so I will just have to limp forward with my toy DAC and totally unacceptable Class D amp until that process runs it's course.  Those components were designed for pro audio, and those guys obviously must be deaf from making music all day long.

 

So, after what I have been through since last August, I really don't appreciate how I am being treated.

 

Well that is definitely no fun. I was under the impression I was criticizing a $3k system as per the thread title.

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

I have both MG 1.7's and LS50's.  You can't build as good a system under $3k with the MG 1.7s as  you can with the LS50's because they require a very good

amplifier. I doubt I'll put the 1.7's back into play until I'm ready to spend over $4k on new amplifiers

 

I picked the Magnepans because those are desirable to less experienced audiophiles on a budget. I can't educate people against Magnepans, they won't listen so if they're going to go that direction anyway I might as well figure out how to get best out of them with a super tight budget. They are low-sensitivity speakers, and they require amps to work hard for them; the low-experience low-budget audiophile look to class D but that is a huge mistake. You want a legitimate, serious, big linear amplifier with a lot of current and the muscle to hang on to large ribbons.

 

The LS50s are fine mini-monitors, but they're not real speakers for actual listening rooms. The powered versions suck because they use class D.

[GUTB]

4 hours ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

My bias, the bias of Absolute Sound or the bias of those who push Chi-Fi?  Absolute sound also put the Grace M9xx in their recommended list of sub $1000 DAC's.  I probably would not have bought one for $500, but I only had to pay $280.

 

There is a long thread in one of the headphone forums with many satisfied users.  I guess they are all biased too.  I guess you support all the trolling going around here.

 

 

I’m sorry you were mislead by Reddit and Massdrop. I can’t be everywhere at once.

[GUTB]

27 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Your opinion is worth zero.

 

Yes I know that truth is a popularity contest. But why not pursue better sound?

[GUTB]

47 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

That's hilarious coming from a source who relishes making misleading statements.

 

I’m neurotypical. I’m reality-based. Obviously I make mistakes but I’m a better source for audiophile advice than Massdrop.

[GUTB]

31 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Do you honestly think I said that after reading one post?  Also, being on the autism spectrum doesn't make a person insane.

 

I'm neurotypical, 100%. 

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, tmtomh said:

In my view we have no way of knowing what GUTB's psychological situation is, and frankly it's none of our business, and such judgments have no place here. All we can do is respond (or not respond) to the content of his posts.

 

In that vein, most of his comments strike me as narcissistic in the extreme - not in the clinical sense but in the rhetorical sense. He employs a classic technique for making hermetically sealed, tautological assertions: He labels whatever he doesn't like with a derogatory term ("consumer," "toy," whatever) and then makes blanket assertions using that term. So if you feel he's dismissing/attacking a piece of equipment without good reason, you have to both defend that piece of equipment, and also push back against the "real/toy" or "audiophile/consumer" binary he's established.

 

It's not easy to prosecute two arguments at once like that, especially since there's some truth to one of them: we all have encountered equipment we think is obviously "audiophile" or "real" in the sense that it's well-built and well-designed and engineered. Conversely, we've all encountered stuff we think is junk - "toy" or "consumer" in the sense of being targeted for lowest-price, with poor build quality, and so on.

 

But of course GUTB is using these actual distinctions to make highly suspect, and often wildly overstated, distinctions among pieces of equipment that by any reasonable standard are all "audiophile/real," and whose sonic differences are subtle or at least within a certain relatively narrow range.

 

Because he deals in absolutes; because he rigs the deck rhetorically by using highly biased labels; and because he has proven himself over and over again to be uninterested in others' perspectives or in new evidence or info that might alter his own view, I would recommend that folks do as @Jud recommends and simply ignore him.

Whatever GUTB might claim or believe, I would say his comments here clearly demonstrate a pattern of behavior that is hostile to or unable to engage in dialogue.

 

I’m neurotypical. That’s the truth.

 

My various assertions about gear are all based on experience and some knowledge. If I’m wrong, please refute them based on experience and/or knowledge. I’m a guy too and I’d be lying if I say I’m not biased in favor of my established opinions — but I try to overcome that bias. If someone says "this class D sounds awesome" I won’t ignore that data point. When I tried the Crown for example it was based on glowing review by another member; I was sure it was going to suck, but maybe I would be wrong so I gave it a shot...it sucked. The guy who recommended it just doesn’t know what quality audio is, so his wrong opinion doesn’t invalidate someone else’s.

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, tmtomh said:

While reading this thread from the beginning looking for the exact post where it went off the rails (GUTB's first post in the thread, unsurprisingly), I discovered so many cool suggestions earlier in the thread - nice!

 

I also appreciated the comments urging an emphasis on actual experience, and not just speculation (although these speculative exercises can be a lot of fun too).

 

My system is quite modest, but I enjoy it immensely. Prices are what I paid, not list. 2011 Mac mini dual drive with SSD ($700) Oppo UDP 205 - ($1000); Adcom GFA-5400 ($150); B&W 705s ($675); Blue Jeans digital cables and analogue interconnects (about $150 I think). So that's $2675.

 

My listening room is pretty small, about 11x13, and there's no problem reaching high enough SPL levels to pressurize the room. If I were to upgrade, my first step would be a new amp. If I had the money, I'd love to get a Bryston 2.5b3 to replace the Adcom.

 

On the speculative side, I'm eager to check out the KEF LS50 actives. I know they have some detractors, but the number of accolades they've gotten from both the audiophile press and regular folks across a wide variety of online forums makes me think they are worth checking out. My wife and I will be moving into a new house early next year, and for our living/great room I'd love to have the LS50 actives and use them with Roon.

 

Get the SSD off your Mac's power supply or use a SotM filter.

 

Get a linear PSU for the Oppo.

 

Upgrade from the Adcom ASAP.

 

Re-consider the mini-monitor configuration; you can still use full size speakers.

 

[GUTB]

22 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Ah, you remind me of my dear late mother.

 

Every time I saw her for decades, among the first things she said to me were that I was too fat, my teeth were yellow, and I was balding.  For nearly the entirety of this time I would reply "Great to see you too, Mom," and laugh.

 

I soon figured out this came from her need to feel in control by causing me (and my brother and sister, who got similar greetings) to want the approval she was withholding.

 

I don't know whether you need to feel in control or knowledgeable or just to have others pay attention, but the need is obvious.  I hope (seriously) that you figure out a way to get whatever it is you need while being helpful and courteous to others.

 

I wanted to let you know, in case you might want to respond, that I have you on my ignore list, but I "check in" every so often to see if anything's changed.

 

Setting aside her motives, was your mother right? Would you have been better off if you had listened to her?

 

I don’t want to ignore your analysis of me out of hand, I strive to be reality-based and get past my ego. It’s an interesting thought. In exchange, don’t you see that you’re being somewhat hypocritical by having a much higher end system than OP and pretending that he’s well positioned in audiophilia?

[GUTB]

4 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Wow...  was she right.  I don't even know how to respond to that.

 

Is price of a system how we are to judge each other on this forum?  Is it how we judge their opinions and insights?  Would you like us to use that same criteria to figure out how much weight to give your opinions and insights?

 

No judgements needed. We’re all here in pursuit of better sound...right?

 

I thought my recommendations were good, low-cost options to match OP’s apparently modest means. Should I just pretend he’s fine, be supportive of whatever he’s decided, while I just dropped $4k on a single component and am about to drop $3k+ on another one? I want everyone to enjoy high-end sound.

[GUTB]

10 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

The OP, Plissken, was a thought experiment, not him trying to find an actual system.

 

Yes, you be supportive, you make your recommendations, and be happy that he enjoys music as much as you (maybe?) do.  If you want everyone to enjoy what you consider High End Sound, then you should be offering to pay for it.  Speaking of which, I need a check for 24K to reimburse me for my recent upgrades...

 

So why the hypocrisy? Why aren’t you recommending components that you consider good?

[GUTB]

By the way, anyone notice how well-represented Jews are in audiophilia? Most Jews = white Europeans.

 

Asians are also heavily involved. In my unscientific opinion, people with higher IQs / more success / generally higher quality are audiophiles.

[GUTB]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

It's not quite clear what you're trying to imply here, but I'm pretty sure it's something racist. Can you please go back to being just a regular jerk?

 

What kind of people do you see at audio shows? Just being real.

[GUTB]

18 minutes ago, mansr said:

Fat middle-aged men with more money than sense.

 

Typical racist excuse.

 

Live in a fantasy land. I’m not judging.

 

Why are you pretending not to want high end audio, though?

[GUTB]

38 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

What do you consider high-end audio?  "high-end" is really relative to your own financial status. 

High end to some could be a $1K amp, where to some, a high-end amp would be $100K.

If I was Bill Gates kind of rich, i would still have a very modest stereo, and it would look nothing like yours...i would probably keep my amp and go with some classic speakers....but i would travel more....probably live in san diego still....just a different home.

 

Audio relativism? I’m not sure there is much philosophical value in that approach.

 

If you’re not an audiophile, that’s okay. No one says you have to be an audiophile.

 

Are you interested in better audio? Do you want help with achieving better audio? Objectively speaking your system as far as I understand it is very low-end.

[GUTB]

19 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

what surprises me most about GUTB is that he can take so much crap from so many people (justifiably), and still keep coming back for more with the same stupid mentality.  He has to have some intelligence to "rethink" his own philosophy doesn't he?  I am convinced that one day he will wake up with an epiphany, and realize it's not the rest of the world that is screwed up....

 

I understand the social phenomena so I won’t take anything personally. Also people enjoy attacking me, and enjoy being a part of the group attacking me. I’m a part of enjoyment value of this forum. I have fans.

[GUTB]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

GUTB - I'm really trying to see something less ridiculous in your comment, but I'm struggling. Perhaps I can just start with some facts.

 

 

 

1. You're fooling yourself if you think you can determine someone's religion by looking at them. OK, I take that back, this is clearly a photograph of a jewish person.

 

 

 

 

2. Most jews = ...

 

 

 

3. Asians are heavily involved in probably everything on the globe. 

 

 

4. OK your statement about audiophiles being higher quality people is off the charts. 

 

Stop your madness, cut your losses, keep your crazy beliefs to yourself. No problem with believing what you want, especially in a post factual world, but you aren't allowed to post that shit here on CA. It'd be one thing if you were posting facts. However, this something entirely different and I'll play no part of it. Your comments will be kept here for posterity so people can understand where you're coming from when you make other statements.

 

Okay, understood. Thanks for leaving the posts.

[GUTB]

Although it's not my area of expertise, I believe research on IQ differences between ethnic groups is pretty extensive and conclusive about the mere existence of such a difference. If I recall correctly, IQ ability is still believed to be a combination of genetic and environmental factors. It gets complex when you look at average spreads so generalities should be avoided.

[GUTB]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

 

thinking can help reduce flack from your posts or links

 

yes, there is positive assortative mating for IQ - that says noting about race or ethnicity

 

GUTB is incorrect in his post 

 

The Totality of Available
Evidence Shows the Race IQ Gap
Still Remains
J. Philippe Rushton1 and Arthur R. Jensen2
1
The University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada, and 2
The University of California at Berkeley

 

In a previous study (Rushton & Jensen, 2005), we examined 10
categories of technical research and concluded that the mean
Black-White IQ difference in the United States is about 80%
heritable. We reviewed evidence that (a) the distribution of IQ
scores around the world shows averages of 106 for East Asians,
100 for Whites, 85 for U.S. Blacks, and 70 for sub-Saharan
Africans; (b) race differences are most pronounced on the more
g-loaded subtests (g being the general factor of mental ability);
(c) race differences are most pronounced on the subtests whose
scores show the most heritability; and (d) racial differences in
brain size parallel the IQ differences. We also reviewed corroborating
studies of (e) racial admixture, (f) trans-racial
adoption, (g) regression to different racial means, (h) 60 related
life-history traits, (i) human origins, and (j) the inadequacy of
environmental explanations of the racial IQ difference. (In Africa,
the 30-point difference is likely only 50% heritable because
environmental factors such as malnutrition and disease
have so much more impact than they do elsewhere in the world;
Lynn, 2006.)