Marantz NR1506 : "Playback of (Multi-Ch ?) DSD and FLAC files via USB and networks"

[徐中銳]

Greetings from New Zealand,

in short, although products are released here later than America or Europe, I want to be an informed consumer and study...

 

Well, what I'd like to know stems from the following graphic :

 

It's common « Features » for Marantz' New AV Receivers that I've read in their User manuals, but it's unclear whether Multi Channel DSD files are possible...

 

In fact, we who care about DSD are thought to be too few ? Because the « Overview » entries, take Marantz US | NR1506, don't even mention DSD ! One has to comb « Specification » tab, click « Network » to discover DSD Audio Streaming and then search to download User manuals...

 

Many thanks,

Will

[Kal Rubinson]

It's common « Features » for Marantz' New AV Receivers that I've read in their User manuals' date=' but it's [u']unclear whether Multi Channel DSD files are possible[/u]...

I am skeptical as it is rare to find any AVR will stream multichannel. It is annoying that so-called multichannel devices share this obvious (to me) blind spot.

 

If any one has an AVR or prepro that will stream discrete mch, please, stand up and wave.

 

Kal (owner of an NR1605)

[徐中銳]

I am skeptical as it is rare to find any AVR will stream multichannel. It is annoying that so-called multichannel devices share this obvious (to me) blind spot.

 

If any one has an AVR or prepro that will stream discrete mch, please, stand up and wave.

 

Kal (owner of an NR1605)

 

Happily Kal, you're in a better position (and I trust more thorough) than most (people who may not care as much) to investigate on our behalf.

 

And what have been the answers, in the past, when you've questioned industry personnel about playback of Multi Channel DSD files/downloads ? Obviously, it's not possible on Stereo products. But why not AV Receivers ?

 

Perhaps, currently, NR1506 (and NR1606, SR5010)...

[Kal Rubinson]

I am not standing and waving.

[徐中銳]

I am not standing and waving.

 

Because you've the previous generation NR1605 ?

 

I meant that you—as Senior Contributing Editor at Stereophile—are in a better position (than us—everyday consumers) to contact Marantz America for a NR1506 demonstration sample (and return after a thorough testing with various multi-channel DSD files which you too, presumably, can more easily source).

 

Indeed, I now believe we need a keen independent investigator rather than, say, merely ringing Customer Service and getting, perhaps, an inaccurate assessment (with whatever files they...

[Kal Rubinson]

Because you've the previous generation NR1605 ?

 

I meant that you—as Senior Contributing Editor at Stereophile—are in a better position (than us—everyday consumers) to contact Marantz America for a NR1506 demonstration sample (and return after a thorough testing with various multi-channel DSD files which you too' date=' presumably, can more easily source).[/font']

 

Indeed, I now believe we need a keen independent investigator rather than, say, merely ringing Customer Service and getting, perhaps, an inaccurate assessment (with whatever files they...

 

I am afraid that my interest in these compact NR AVRs (or any AVRs) is minimal but I am more concerned about the general situation that no AVRs or preamp-processors AFAIK can do this. So, I do not see any good reason to just try out another one at random.

 

You (or anyone else) can try it with your own AVR. Download some free sample files from 2L in various formats, play them and let us all know.

[徐中銳]

I'll write it differently, New Zealand's Marantz distributor will likely still be many months from receiving stocks of the 3 new AV Receivers which I read, having downloaded their User manuals, are able to :

« Playback of DSD and FLAC files via USB and networks »

 

Study for yourself, by searching DSD after downloading SR5010 User manual :

NR1606 User manual :

NR1506 User manual :

Simply, if you too are waiting for an affordable product that playback multi-channel DSD files, good luck researching if the above 3 models do (because official distributors may not be thoroughly investigating this feature that engineers may have incorporated).

 

And how new's New ? NR1506 « Date first available at Amazon.com : July 14, 2015 »

[Kal Rubinson]

Simply' date=' if you too are waiting for an affordable product that playback multi-channel DSD files, good luck researching if the above 3 models do (because [i']official distributors[/i] may not be thoroughly investigating this feature that engineers may have incorporated).

Amen. This is an abiding issue with all the manufacturers. Many times I have asked for clarification on features, by e-mail or in person at meetings. Often the response is to repeat what is already printed or to admit they do not know.

[jrobbins50]

Perhaps you can consider this arrangement. I finally succeeded in playing multichannel DSD iso files off my Synology NAS via JRiver through my music server (running Windows Server 2012R2 with Audiophile Optimizer in core mode) using the new miniDSP U-DAC8 8-channel USB DAC -- $299, so not an expensive experiment to try. I have the JRiver software converting the DSD streams to 24/176.4 before outputting via USB (through the Sonore dedicated USB card with outboard linear power supply) to the miniDSP unit. I had no success with 6ch audio using my prior CAPS3 Lagoon, as its processor is underpowered and 6ch audio was constantly rebuffering in JRiver no matter what settings I made (the CPU was up at 98% for 6ch audio). I now run a CAPSZuma with an i7 processor and 16 Gb RAM (I let Small Green Computer build it for me this time) and now 6ch streaming audio over the network works like a charm. The miniDSP unit outputs 7.1 analog and my Marantz prepro (the AV-7702) has 7.1 analog inputs just as the Marantz unit you ask about above. JCR

[jrobbins50]

Kal, you wrote about the MCH miniDSP unit in your column I just received today! I use the U-DAC8 on the PC so am wondering if you have a favored streaming mode -- if that is the right phrase. By analogy and since I don't have the JRiver configuration in front of me, i merely recall in 2ch there is WASAPI, ASIO, etc. What would you recommend for use with the miniDSP unit? Thanks. JCR

[徐中銳]

Thanks JCR

 

Briefly, since 2012, I've reverted to stereo by giving away my sole AV Receiver to friends in need...

 

The NR1506's price (MSRP : $499 USD) plus its convenient simplicity of (potentially Mult-Ch) DSD playback with « USB memory devices » attracts me (and I trust, perhaps, similar entry-level [less computer/network abled] others too) to try (again) surround-sound (as well as Dolby Atmos...

[Audio_ELF]

I have no real answers here ... but I have always assumed that the streaming hardware and software inside the Marantz is likely shared with both the AV systems and the 2-channel HiFi (as well as with Denon's devices?); explaining why multi-channel is not supported.

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal, you wrote about the MCH miniDSP unit in your column I just received today! I use the U-DAC8 on the PC so am wondering if you have a favored streaming mode -- if that is the right phrase. By analogy and since I don't have the JRiver configuration in front of me, i merely recall in 2ch there is WASAPI, ASIO, etc. What would you recommend for use with the miniDSP unit? Thanks. JCR

You must use the U-DAC8 ASIO driver. However, I use WASAPI out to the Dirac Processor and that connects to the U-DAC8 via ASIO.

[徐中銳]

I have no real answers here ... but I have always assumed that the streaming hardware and software inside the Marantz is likely shared with both the AV systems and the 2-channel HiFi (as well as with Denon's devices?); explaining why multi-channel is not supported.

 

Good morning, as you live in « England » (and likely know of European Hi-Fi press' contributors), I may as well hypothesise by quoting the following extract from (Audio Editor of Gramophone) Andrew Everard on why « Brand Ambassador » Ken Ishiwata delayed releasing Marantz' stereo NA-11S1 :

When Ken’s not happy…

What soon became clear about the NA-11S1 was that Marantz – and more to the point, Ishiwata – wasn’t happy with the product, and so the decision was taken to hold it back until it could be made more competitive.

 

It seems that some of the concerns were around functionality, in what is a fast-developing market seemingly, almost as driven by the need to have the latest widget as is the AV receiver arena. And Ishiwata clearly thought work was needed on the sound of the product, too.

 

As he put it in an email to me: ‘Premature information was given to sales before the design was finalised, and I had been discussing with the engineers in Japan the problems of computer audio, and especially noise.

 

‘As you are well aware, a computer is just a noise generator from a pure audio point of view! Therefore, we have to take extra care of every connection you have between the network audio player and PC – otherwise you’ll end up having all those nasty noises coming into your audio system!

 

‘Of course it requires specific technologies and know-how to avoid that interferences from the PC, and I requested certain things in the NA-11S1, but the original design application was simply not the standard we wanted…. NA-11 is our first high-end network player!

 

‘This meant large changes to be made in the original design, and consequently more time was required…. However, in my opinion, it was the right decision, and the proof is in the product, which has been getting rave reviews all over the world!

 

 

‘The funny thing was, before we came up with NA-11S1 our Japanese organisation was saying, ‘Oh, there isn’t a market in Japan, we won’t be able to sell such an expensive network audio player!’

 

‘When they started, they got the shock of their lives: it immediately became reference in opinion leader’s systems and received amazing reviews, with the end results that now they simply can’t supply enough.’

 

[jrobbins50]

You must use the U-DAC8 ASIO driver. However, I use WASAPI out to the Dirac Processor and that connects to the U-DAC8 via ASIO.

 

You are doing the sound correction before the DAC. I'm coming out of the U-DAC8 and into my AV-7702 for Audyssey XT-32 correction, the opposite. No particular reason to do in one order over the other, is there?

 

Have you tried a better power supply on the U-DAC8 yet? JCR

[Kal Rubinson]

You are doing the sound correction before the DAC. I'm coming out of the U-DAC8 and into my AV-7702 for Audyssey XT-32 correction, the opposite. No particular reason to do in one order over the other, is there?

I do not see how you can do that. AFAIK, the 8801/8802 cannot digitize the mch analog inputs, so I assume that the 7702 cannot do so either. Can you clarify this matter for me?

[jrobbins50]

I do not see how you can do that. AFAIK, the 8801/8802 cannot digitize the mch analog inputs, so I assume that the 7702 cannot do so either. Can you clarify this matter for me?

 

Frankly, I didn't know if the Marantz units could do that. I assume that the Dirac processor you are using must be USB in and out? Which processor and do you like it better than the XT32 in your Marantz?

 

I have been holding out for Dirac until they commercially release the essentially unlimited multichannel version they demonstrated in their room at CES earlier this year. I thought that was pretty cool. JCR

[Kal Rubinson]

Frankly, I didn't know if the Marantz units could do that.

One has to digitize the analog outputs from the U-DAC8 and, afaik, the Marantz units will not do that. So, although you have XT32 set up and you are sending in mch analog from the U-DAC8, the prepro cannot apply Audyssey.

 

I assume that the Dirac processor you are using must be USB in and out?

No. It is a program which runs under Windows in my server.

 

I have been holding out for Dirac until they commercially release the essentially unlimited multichannel version they demonstrated in their room at CES earlier this year. I thought that was pretty cool. JCR

Don't hold your breath. Even so, when/if it comes, I suspect it will also be a program like the current versions because you will need a heck of a lot of processing power to run it.

[jrobbins50]

One has to digitize the analog outputs from the U-DAC8 and, afaik, the Marantz units will not do that. So, although you have XT32 set up and you are sending in mch analog from the U-DAC8, the prepro cannot apply Audyssey.

 

No. It is a program which runs under Windows in my server.

 

Don't hold your breath. Even so, when/if it comes, I suspect it will also be a program like the current versions because you will need a heck of a lot of processing power to run it.

 

Understood, it may be a while for that Dirac system. Seems like they were focused on getting that system spec'd into car audio. At this point, however, with my server sporting an i7 processor and 16Gb of RAM, I'd like to give that a shot.

 

The sound modes and surround parameters chart in the AV7702 shows XT32 runs with the multichannel input if Audyssey previously was run. So, I have been presuming that the U-DAC8 input is in fact being re-digitized in the Marantz unit. Am I misreading? Here's the link to that section of the manual: http://manuals.marantz.com/AV7702/NA/EN/WBSPSYdjnkeccz.php

 

I hope you will post your further experiments with the U-DAC8. Thanks. JCR

[Kal Rubinson]

Understood, it may be a while for that Dirac system. Seems like they were focused on getting that system spec'd into car audio. At this point, however, with my server sporting an i7 processor and 16Gb of RAM, I'd like to give that a shot.

 

The sound modes and surround parameters chart in the AV7702 shows XT32 runs with the multichannel input if Audyssey previously was run. So, I have been presuming that the U-DAC8 input is in fact being re-digitized in the Marantz unit. Am I misreading? Here's the link to that section of the manual: Sound modes and surround parameters AV7702

 

I hope you will post your further experiments with the U-DAC8. Thanks. JCR

The linked page has nothing to do with mch analog inputs, as far as I can tell, but only describes what processing is available for the various sound modes.

[徐中銳]

Okay, essentially, it's fair to say that we enthusiasts would like provider sites such as Jared Sacks' initiative NativeDSD.com to succeed ?

 

Quoting some paragraphs of Jared's Stereophile DSD Present and Future interview :

America's problem is actually at the dealer level. For years, they didn't want to deal with SACD, and they didn't want to educate anyone coming in; that has continued to be the problem. So we need magazines and websites to educate the listener. Since what you never hear you do not miss, I organize regular listening sessions at my studio to let people hear what they are missing!

 

 

To me, DSD's superiority has to do with emotion, depth, and how the sound leaves the speaker. It's not a block anymore in the way it dissipates. When you listen to PCM, you can literally hear it as a block of sound coming out of the speaker. That doesn't happen with DSD. There's air around the sound. At the end of the day, we are talking about the air around the sound.

 

In our business, we have to do post-production, but not all the time. I always make a mix-down into stereo. The surround channels go directly to an A/D converter, so they don't go through a mixer, and I try to leave them like that. Then I make a master without going through post-production (without going through the sigma-delta converter again).

 

The moment I have to change levels or do some EQ, I have to go through the mixer, and that means going through the sigma-delta again, which lowers the quality. Of course, it's all high DSD, but you have to go into DXD if you do post-production, and there's really no way around it. This problem will be solved in the future. But we are talking about further research, which costs money, at a moment when there is not much to be made selling to recording companies.

 

When you listen to my raw data, and you compare it to the post-produced recording, there's a difference in the air around the instruments and the depth. There's a degradation of sound. It's slight, but it's there. It's unfortunate, but there's nothing we can do about it, because we have to go into the sigma-delta processor again. As with any other audio signal, if you have to keep on processing, it will change.

 

You may ask, given that, if there is a difference between the sound of 192 and DSD? You have to have a really good system, and it also depends on the repertoire, to hear the difference. I still do, especially because of the dynamic range. When I down-sample to 192, you can hear that it's PCM, absolutely.

Of DSD, let's not forget the pursuit of purist ITU equidistant, 5x identical speakers setup like that of Jared's « listening session » above.

 

Will playback by, most elementarily, inserting a USB stick that has multi-channel DSD files into the NR1506 be (primarily) unprocessed 5.1 (EQ being a secondary option) ?

 

Incidentally, a couple of beneficial design features I've noted :

5 Channel Discrete Amplifier

The power amp section features discrete high current power output devices, identical on all channels for maximum soundstage uniformity. Rated at 50 watts per channel (20Hz~20kHz, .08%THD, 8 ohms), the NR1506 features low impedance drive capability and is compatible with 4 ohm speakers.

 

Dual Subwoofer Outputs

The NR1506 features dual subwoofer outputs, which lets you connect two smaller subwoofers instead of a single, larger sub, and enjoy the benefits of response averaging by having two subs in different locations in the room. With dual subwoofers, deep bass is smoother and more detailed, minimizing the peaks and dips that often result with a single subwoofer setup.

 

[jrobbins50]

The linked page has nothing to do with mch analog inputs, as far as I can tell, but only describes what processing is available for the various sound modes.

 

Kal, I called Marantz customer service today to ask. They claim that if Audyssey has been set up on the AV7702, the 7.1 mch analog inputs will be re-digitized and processed by Audyssey. Perhaps you can confirm yourself? I never know whether to trust these types of answers, although the representative did seem to understand the question and put me on hold to go seek an answer.

 

Alternatively, what Dirac processor are you using now with your U-DAC8 in front of your Marantz unit? As I run two subwoofers now, I would need a solution that can measure and integrate the two subs like Audyssey XT32. Thanks. JCR

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal, I called Marantz customer service today to ask. They claim that if Audyssey has been set up on the AV7702, the 7.1 mch analog inputs will be re-digitized and processed by Audyssey. Perhaps you can confirm yourself? I never know whether to trust these types of answers, although the representative did seem to understand the question and put me on hold to go seek an answer.

I will get back with a definitive answer from Marantz but my understanding is to the contrary.

 

Alternatively, what Dirac processor are you using now with your U-DAC8 in front of your Marantz unit? As I run two subwoofers now, I would need a solution that can measure and integrate the two subs like Audyssey XT32.

It is a Win7 PC-based server.

[jrobbins50]

I will get back with a definitive answer from Marantz but my understanding is to the contrary.

 

It is a Win7 PC-based server.

 

Your Baetis, I presume, or a separate PC? Just wondering the computing power required. You are running Dirac on that with the 24/192 version? Dual subs for 5.2 USB out to the U-DAC8?

 

Thanks for checking on the Marantz question. Cheers. JCR

[jrobbins50]

Kal -- were your Marantz sources able to definitively answer the question? JCR