Would it be stupid to stick a pair of bookshelves on a glass cabinet?

[Sam Lord]

Yes, MD208 that I bought from Hi Fi Sound about 5 years ago...

Ohh, those are wonderful pieces. Though it mattered more when people were cueing up vinyl to broadcast.

 

...how concerned are you with the sound quality of your system?...

Yeah he should try to make stands happen. But this seems like a temporary situation. Lewis could make stands from cinder blocks if he has the initiative. And we didn't learn how good his speakers were, maybe he will trade up after a while.

[Deaf Cat]

Since you asked, my system is in my signature below, the speakers are an unusual monitor and 2x sub combination on massive stands with essentially perfect time coherence: <2mm tweeter-to-woofer error and <5mm woofer-to-sub wavelaunch error for the centrally seated listener. It sounds very good.

 

Hi Sam,

Is this time aligned signal / driver positioning that you have within 2-5mm, so the sign wave sound signals are pretty much hitting your ears / leaving the drivers all in time (in phase) with each other. Just starting to read a little on the subject, and I need to read more ;-) very basically is this where all the coil parts of the drivers are all vertically in line, rather than having the front mounts of each driver in a flat vertical plane... From your comments I understand it is worth learning about.

Cheers

dc

[PopPop]

I have never seen one out in the wild. What do you think of the sound quality?

The MD208 replaced a Rotel digital tuner and Rotel integrated amp. I didn't like the Rotel tuner very much, it had a problem pulling in some stations that I like to listen to. The Rotel amp was just run of the mill consumer electronics. My first listen to the MD208 was a real ear opener; great channel separation, sound stage, detailed imaging, open and airy, etc. But with the planar speakers the combo was just too cool in the upper midrange. I didn't like the loss of timbre in the wood winds and strings. So, I tried some B&W CM8 towers, that helped the sound but put the music "back in the box." The CM8's are also in storage. So, like any thing else it's system dependent but I have to say that the MD208 tuner was better than any other I've ever listened to and integrated amp revealed every sound I could hope to hear with these old ears. My wife and I have most of our gear in storage while we show our home and look for another. When we get into our new place I will set it up for listening again. You're welcome to come by and have a listen then if you would like.

[AudioDoctor]

The MD208 replaced a Rotel digital tuner and Rotel integrated amp. I didn't like the Rotel tuner very much, it had a problem pulling in some stations that I like to listen to. The Rotel amp was just run of the mill consumer electronics. My first listen to the MD208 was a real ear opener; great channel separation, sound stage, detailed imaging, open and airy, etc. But with the planar speakers the combo was just too cool in the upper midrange. I didn't like the loss of timbre in the wood winds and strings. So, I tried some B&W CM8 towers, that helped the sound but put the music "back in the box." The CM8's are also in storage. So, like any thing else it's system dependent but I have to say that the MD208 tuner was better than any other I've ever listened to and integrated amp revealed every sound I could hope to hear with these old ears. My wife and I have most of our gear in storage while we show our home and look for another. When we get into our new place I will set it up for listening again. You're welcome to come by and have a listen then if you would like.

 

I appreciate the offer. I see you are tuned into MPR, the reason I want to always have a tuner! Right now I have the old Marantz in my home office.

[gmgraves]

 

 

I built these shelves with 1/4 inch glass and cantilevered the shelves out from the back on 1" square steel tubes. The amp and the CD on the middle shelf have a combined weight of 45 pounds, the DAC and the power supply weigh about 30 pounds. Glass is very strong if it is supported adequately.

 

These are Magnepan speakers, right? What model. I don't recognize them off hand.

[PopPop]

You are right, they are MG12QRs. I'm totally enthralled with the sound of the planar speakers, a lot of my listening is vocals, small ensembles, jazz, etc. Big band, orchestra, and rock music tend to overwhelm them but some of that, I believe, is because of the the room they are in (12' x 12'). As I told AudioDoctor, I'm in the hunt for a new home and one criteria is a proper music listening room. I suspect that some room treatments will sort our the problems with the sound of large orchestras.

[AudioDoctor]

You are right, they are MG12QRs. I'm totally enthralled with the sound of the planar speakers, a lot of my listening is vocals, small ensembles, jazz, etc. Big band, orchestra, and rock music tend to overwhelm them but some of that, I believe, is because of the the room they are in (12' x 12'). As I told AudioDoctor, I'm in the hunt for a new home and one criteria is a proper music listening room. I suspect that some room treatments will sort our the problems with the sound of large orchestras.

 

Ha, good luck. I just finished that adventure and I ended up buying a house on enough property to build one, which is a whole 'nother adventure...

 

I tried, but they just don't exist. Unless you want to transform the "indoor sport court" to a giant listening room...

[gmgraves]

You are right, they are MG12QRs. I'm totally enthralled with the sound of the planar speakers, a lot of my listening is vocals, small ensembles, jazz, etc. Big band, orchestra, and rock music tend to overwhelm them but some of that, I believe, is because of the the room they are in (12' x 12'). As I told AudioDoctor, I'm in the hunt for a new home and one criteria is a proper music listening room. I suspect that some room treatments will sort our the problems with the sound of large orchestras.

 

Well, good luck on the new house. But those speakers are never going to be very good with rock music. Maggies just aren't rock speakers. Even with the addition of a killer subwoofer system, Maggies aren't designed to pump-out the SPLs required by rock. Large orchestral, OTOH, is another story. Maggies excel at painting a large symphonic canvas in a decent room. I don't know your speaker model at all, but I've owned MG-2s, Tympani 3Cs (those are the big ones with the EIGHT panels), MG-3s, and MG-3.6s and I can tell you that I found symphonic music, jazz, and chamber music to be conveyed very realistically through all of them.

[crisnee]

I have MG12QRs and rock plays just fine on mine, plenty loud and with enough if not earth moving bass.

 

As to having a problem with symphonic or large scale orchestral music, it might be a matter of speaker placement. It looks like yours are fairly near the back wall; I have mine about 5 feet from the back wall and my room is only 12 feet deep like yours. I think the further from the back wall (to a point obviously) the better.

 

Also I read in Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound" or something like that, that you should never place your audio components between your speakers. Why? Don't ask me. I'm just relaying the info. Fortunately my components were not setup between the speakers so I didn't have to think about whether I was willing to try changing it. He's an extremely well respected room/speaker setup guy btw.

 

Chris

[PopPop]

That's good to know, Chris. I d want to get them out further from the wall, and I can push the components back at least a foot. I have never felt like I have had the proper space to lay out my gear, for now this is temporary while we have the house staged for sale. I looked at a condo yesterday that has a 23 foot square room with a 9 foot ceiling that could be all mine for music. Linkwitz and Diament also have some interesting writing on speaker placement and I'm in the middle of planning some DIY base tube traps ala Art Noxon. Ohhhh, retirement will be fun, only two more months.

[Sam Lord]

Hi Sam,

Is this time aligned signal / driver positioning that you have within 2-5mm, so the sign wave sound signals are pretty much hitting your ears / leaving the drivers all in time (in phase) with each other. Just starting to read a little on the subject, and I need to read more ;-) very basically is this where all the coil parts of the drivers are all vertically in line, rather than having the front mounts of each driver in a flat vertical plane... From your comments I understand it is worth learning about.

Hi dc,

Not in my case. You're referring to coaxial drivers. They are great for time alignment (should be perfect) but it is difficult to create premium transducers with that constraint. Cabasse is the only builder I can think of which has successfully created 3-way coaxial drivers, though KEF, Tannoy, Thiel, and several others have made some fine 2-way coax drivers. I just have a pair of 2-way main speakers on stands directly above my amps and subs. They align along the vertical/longitudinal plane, i.e. when you look at them from the front they line up horizontally. The time alignment is done by 1) tilting and/or adjusting the height of the 2-way mains and 2) adjusting the fore/aft position of the subs to arrive at correct alignment for exactly one ear position. You use percussion like single drum hits to find those positions. When the drum sounds right, it is right. But the adjustments can make a difference at +- 1/16" for 3kHz crossover points.

 

First do the the mains then subs (if you have them). If you have 3-or-4-way speakers, you won't find correct time alignment at any spot but one; you cannot make adjustments with them as you could with separate cabinets. And quite a few fancy speakers cannot be time aligned (shocker!). You can do perfect time alignment as long as you have no more than two frequency-divided transducers per moveable cabinet. Manufacturers are loath to give you useful information on this. For example, I asked Billy Woodman (founder of ATC) where his 3-way ATC50s converge. He only said that they align somewhat below the woofer line, i.e. that they were meant for soffit mounting. How many people know that? The great thing about time alignment is that it usually matters *more* than position of speakers in a room. Both matter enormously, but anyway try it out. For bookshelves all you need to do is mount them symmetrically with the listening position, and hopefully at odd fractions of room width and depth, then tilt them using a couple of coins under the front or the rear corners. If you need to tilt them froward, it's best to lower them instead, then see if you can find a spot where they can be flush on their stands. I also strongly prefer the use of spikes (cheap) or bearings ($$$), so keep those in mind. A final note, I differ from most listeners in that I prefer my speakers more distant than an equilateral triangle, and rarely apply toe-in, sometimes just a degree or two. When the speakers time align for ears that are farther away and without toe-in, the first reflections are closer to correct alignment and typically create a wider soundstage than equilateral, toed-in arrangements yield. I've demonstrated this on very many occasions.

 

Cheers, Sam

[Deaf Cat]

I also strongly prefer the use of spikes (cheap) or bearings ($$$), so keep those in mind. A final note, I differ from most listeners in that I prefer my speakers more distant than an equilateral triangle, and rarely apply toe-in, sometimes just a degree or two. When the speakers time align for ears that are farther away and without toe-in, the first reflections are closer to correct alignment and typically create a wider soundstage than equilateral, toed-in arrangements yield. I've demonstrated this on very many occasions.

 

Cheers, Sam

 

Hi Sam,

Interesting stuff, so if I am understanding... (a little I hope) you have tilted your drivers where possible to angle the sound direct from a/the driver direct to your ear, that I can see would make sense. I would not have much adjustment as I have floorstanders with tweeter and two woofers (wired in parallel) all screwed to the front plate of the cabinet. Like you say with the ACT50's it would be good to know where my alignment was.. But guess the only way is move my head up and down with a drum snap playing, and see if the resulting angle is achievable by adjusting my spikes up and down...

I shall have a go :-)

 

Actually, you have reminded me. we used to have the tv central and speakers either side, with only a little toe in, as they were pretty close to each other. It was decided by the powers that be, it was time for a room rearrangement, tv ended up in the corner of the room, much more guest friendly / sociable I was told. My speakers ended up either side of the sofa, now much further apart, facing straight forward with a smidge of toe in, they sounded so much better. Initial reservations about the room rearrangement went up in a puff of smoke ;-) I was rather pleased!

 

We have since moved, automatically I placed the speakers with quite a bit of toe in, and have not played with placement as of yet. I'm guessing they are roughly of an equilateral layout, time to have a play me thinks!

 

Many thanks for your reply

Cheers

Mark

[Sam Lord]

...you have tilted your drivers where possible to angle the sound direct from a/the driver direct to your ear, that I can see would make sense.

Mark, yes the goal is getting the correct relative distance of each driver to the ear. For example, on the last model of speakers I helped design, the tweeter (Morel MDT33) was 0.40" farther from the near-side ear than the midrange (a fabulous Cabasse 7"), and the woofer was 2.67" farther back than the tweeter or 2.27" farther than the midrange. Those figures were derived from listening, adjusting, then measuring the distances. Of course you needn't do any math, just use a very good listening spot for your room and furniture. I actually choose a spot lower than I sit, because nearly every guest sits lower and I want them to get the full benefit. The decision of time alignment isn't precise because the waveforms received aren't exactly spherical, the travel of drivers isn't perfectly linear, and crossover types affect the result. What we seek is the best psychoacoustic result. But in spite of those facts, I've never encountered a difference of opinion about my time alignment setups. That is, once it is dialed in, *everybody* agrees on it, and it generally triples the value of the system.

 

...I would not have much adjustment as I have floorstanders with tweeter and two woofers (wired in parallel) all screwed to the front plate of the cabinet... But guess the only way is move my head up and down with a drum snap playing, and see if the resulting angle is achievable by adjusting my spikes up and down... I shall have a go :-)...

 

That's right, but it really doesn't take too long. You can use spike pads (the metal floor protectors) or coins beneath the spikes, or having a cushion to sit on, to avoid bending strain. You can mute one channel if you like, but I adjust both speakers with each trial. If your speakers are precisely and symmetrically located with you can be finished in an hour. And you have a two-way system, hopefully with the midbass drivers pretty close to each other so that they work as one. So you can have excellent results! I think for 95% of music lovers that is an ideal speaker type (though I do love Maggies). Good luck, and if it's not too hard, give my suggested layout a try (though the time alignment is different). Please let me know how it goes.

[Deaf Cat]

Mark, yes the goal is getting the correct relative distance of each driver to the ear......

....Please let me know how it goes.

 

Well, had a very quick play and it seems my ears in line with the mid driver sounds best to me, so have unscrewed the front speaker spikes by about 5mm, tipping the speakers back slightly. I think more adjustment is needed, as it has only been a quick 10mins adjusting and 1/2 hour with the house to my self so the music has been on! :-) with me slouched on the sofa to get ears to mid driver position ;-)

 

The far left seat of the sofa is not quite left enough to get speakers and ears equal distances, the right speaker also has to be slightly set back more than the left. I have slightly moved outwards (not me;-) the speakers) from the toe in position and yes soundstage has widened, but then so has each location of each sound widened too. Before with a narrower soundstage locations for sounds were more accurate, so I'm guessing a bit more system tweeking and a bit more pin point accuracy on the sound stage will hopefully appear! (wanting to keep the wider soundstage)

 

The plan is to use some Marchand active crossovers at some point, so I shall remember, to have a re-adjust when I get round to going active, as you say the crossover can have an effect.

 

Pleased you posted and thanks the the pointers!

I will play with adjusting speakers some more, as I had forgotten how much affect placement (and tipping!) actually has!

Cheers again

Mark