Wyred4Sound DAC2?? Stay away from Mavericks!

[NOMBEDES]

By the way, a beta driver has been released by W4S : http://www.wyred4sound.com/uploads/74030/files/W4S1055_256_192Khz.pkg

So far so good : no particular problem with mavericks, this driver does what it is meant to.

 

With the installation of the above driver the W4S DAC2 is now working, but I did notice the static artifact that Clint mentioned.

I think the SQ (sound quality) may be a bit different. I will have to do some A / B comparisons with my other DAC when I have the time.

 

As I have posted on other W4S threads, this has been a most painful process.

[Simon Templar]

Coming up on TWO MONTHS.....still no clean drivers out of W4S.

 

We've had one terribly noisy driver....and one just plain noisy driver.....

 

 

Anyone else getting the feeling this has fallen off their list of priorities? After all....they would LOVE for us to give them more money to upgrade in order to dodge the matter altogether. Personally, though...it rubs me the wrong way to reward a company for dropping the ball.

 

 

 

 

....sT

[dgilz]

Well Simon I don't share your opinion, I even sincerely think you are overreacting.

W4S hasn't developers amongst its staff, it is easily understandable that they need time to have a driver out.

They released a beta driver which in a way is at least a temporary workaround waiting for the final version. So far I haven't had any trouble with this beta driver, and none of my friends using it on imacs of whatever other macs have had any problem.

If you want to contribute to a solution, just write an e-mail to W4S explaining that you expect them to be more proactive next time and not wait for the annual release of MacOS to worry if the driver is compatible or not with the next version

[Simon Templar]

Well...I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that point.

 

Regardless of whether they employ their own code monkeys or they do not, it does not change the fact that they had easy and ample opportunity to learn of their problem quite some length of time prior to the release of the OS. They chose not to and it has bitten them (and us) in the backside. Indeed they seem so lazy that they did not even bother a post on their company website that there WAS a problem until several weeks after release when one of their users apparently called them on the phone and suggested it might be a good idea.

 

Now to suggest to give them a pass on that apathy and laziness, as well as their thinly veiled attempt to drum up business at the compounded expense of those who've suffered its' repercussions, is just plain crass.

 

I do however, respect your right to madly wave the party flag and drunkenly sing the party song. I'll admit there once was a time when I did as well. (alas, that was a long time ago...when I was more naive). You let us know how that works out for you.

 

 

....sT

 

 

PS: Neither do I agree with your 'close-enough-is-good-enough' notion about their 'beta driver'. I might remind you that W4S spent weeks telling us the problem was fixed and the driver was in hand whilst blaming Apple for for being slow to 'issue a certificate for it'. Now...they release a 'beta driver' which is noisy and far from a solution and tell us they're working on THAT problem. No doubt they hope that nobody noticed.

[dgilz]

Well, I don't get why you use violent words as laziness ? Do you have any proof that they did not dedicate time enough to solve this problem and didn't have any other priority at the time ?

W4S although a bit famous at the time is not a big company. In addition, I've always had answers to my questions. When they released the beta driver their website went down, I sent an e-mail to Clint Hartman. Clint wasn't available and EJ Sarmento answered sending the driver as an attachment to the reply.

 

Don't forget these are men and not machines answering. They can make mistakes and they learn from them. I like my DAC2 it is a really good DAC. As a mere computer user I've seen so many international companies in the last 20 years that did not even bother trying to find solutions contrary to what W4S has done in this driver situation.

 

What I am saying is basically you are trying to hit the wrong target. If you like W4S products and are deceipt by the way they dealt with the problem tell them, but be proportionate : they are like you, not better or worse.

[mav52]

Well...I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that point.

 

Regardless of whether they employ their own code monkeys or they do not, it does not change the fact that they had easy and ample opportunity to learn of their problem quite some length of time prior to the release of the OS. They chose not to and it has bitten them (and us) in the backside. Indeed they seem so lazy that they did not even bother a post on their company website that there WAS a problem until several weeks after release when one of their users apparently called them on the phone and suggested it might be a good idea.

 

Now to suggest to give them a pass on that apathy and laziness, as well as their thinly veiled attempt to drum up business at the compounded expense of those who've suffered its' repercussions, is just plain crass.

 

I do however, respect your right to madly wave the party flag and drunkenly sing the party song. I'll admit there once was a time when I did as well. (alas, that was a long time ago...when I was more naive). You let us know how that works out for you.

 

 

....sT

 

 

PS: Neither do I agree with your 'close-enough-is-good-enough' notion about their 'beta driver'. I might remind you that W4S spent weeks telling us the problem was fixed and the driver was in hand whilst blaming Apple for for being slow to 'issue a certificate for it'. Now...they release a 'beta driver' which is noisy and far from a solution and tell us they're working on THAT problem. No doubt they hope that nobody noticed.

 

Simon sell your W4S gear and just buy something else. It's that simple.

[longbowbbs]

or upgrade to the DSDse and be done with it....

[Simon Templar]

Well, I don't get why you use violent words as laziness ?

 

 

A curious paradigm to be sure when the concept of laziness equals the concept of violence.

 

 

 

 

....sT

[dgilz]

Don't deny your use of the word was quite agressive... ;-)

[Simon Templar]

Aggressive? Your confusion seems to grow.

 

My words were mere observation of fact. No aggression necessary. If you find the facts to be uncomfortable...I'm afraid I am not to blame.

 

 

 

.....sT

[dgilz]

I think that's merely your interpretation of the facts.

I don't see things the same way.

[Audio_ELF]

As a non-partisan observer who has experienced the frustration of upgrading to a new OS and having a device (not a DAC) which no longer worked; I think it is fair to accuse Wyred4Sound (along with Chord, M2Tech and others who have had the same issue) of laziness and/or apathy for not being more pro-active in letting their users know there was a problem within 24 hours of them becoming aware of it - many of the companies affected are direct sales so they should have email addresses for the affected customers.

 

On the other hand, I think you have to give some understanding to the size of these companies and that its not possible for them to be employing a developer full time and therefore development of a driver is going to take time.

 

Finally I would reiterate a comment I made before (maybe in another similar thread) that it is generally foolish to upgrade to a new OS on what is to many people a critical system, without being sure that drivers will work or having a good backup of the old system you could revert to. Not that it isn't something I do (suddenly my Parallels installation didn't work!) so I'm a hypocrite for saying and it doesn't forgive the companies lack of communication with its customers.

 

Eloise

 

PS. Apple are notoriously slow at approving devices and issuing certificates for drivers so that "excuse" is probably correct.

[longbowbbs]

Excellent points Eloise.

 

Another example would be corporations waiting as long as a year or two before upgrading to a new OS for their computers. Lot's of testing to make sure functionality is assured before they make the move.

 

Eric

[Simon Templar]

On the other hand, I think you have to give some understanding to the size of these companies and that its not possible for them to be employing a developer full time and therefore development of a driver is going to take time.

 

 

 

It matters not whether they employ their own code monkeys or not. It takes only but the registration fee (actually...quite a small fee, relatively speaking) to become an 'Apple Developer'. And when you do so (and then jump through a couple more relatively painless hoops), you get beta and prerelease copies of impending OS revs. So...again....W4S had it within their power to to inform themselves of impending problems...but clearly chose not. Laziness....apathy....or, as they have already tried to push DAC2 upgrades as a way out of this mess, perhaps their motives were somewhat more ulterior?

 

While Apple is indeed well known for being slow with certificates...that was not the point. The point was we were told for weeks that 'the problem is resolved. We have the new drivers. We are just waiting for Apple to issue a certificate.' Yet.....what they released (ostensibly after getting an Apple certificate for it) was a noisy and buggy bit of 'betaware'. And then they claimed that they are now working on THOSE problems. Clearly...the problem was NOT resolved. They did NOT have good and useable drivers in hand. Waiting for Apple was NOT the issue. ...and they obviously knew it and chose to spin us all yet again.

 

 

I do not feel any of us deserve to be spun...or just plain flat out lied to. I also feel that it is cheap, sleazy, and all to indicative of the sort of company W4S actually is for them to negligently allow this to happen and then tell you 'Gee, sorry your DAC is a brick....but we'd like to turn a profit on your troubles. Why don't you just give us MORE money.'

 

 

And, as for ' without being sure that drivers will work ' Not possible in this instance as W4S could not be bothered to post on their website or any other that their drivers weren't compatible. It took a telephone call from one of our local users, AFTER the crap had hit the fan, to get them to make such disclosures.

 

Too little...too late....too bad. But....we'd love it if you gave us more money.

 

 

 

.....sT

[Audio_ELF]

It matters not whether they employ their own code monkeys or not. It takes only but the registration fee (actually...quite a small fee, relatively speaking) to become an 'Apple Developer'. And when you do so (and then jump through a couple more relatively painless hoops), you get beta and prerelease copies of impending OS revs. So...again....W4S had it within their power to to inform themselves of impending problems...but clearly chose not. Laziness....apathy....or, as they have already tried to push DAC2 upgrades as a way out of this mess, perhaps their motives were somewhat more ulterior?

Simon, I find it very rule for you to quote part of my post while ignoring that the other part of my post actually agreed with you some what - I said that "I think it is fair to accuse Wyred4Sound (along with Chord, M2Tech and others who have had the same issue) of laziness and/or apathy for not being more pro-active in letting their users know there was a problem within 24 hours of them becoming aware of it - many of the companies affected are direct sales so they should have email addresses for the affected customers."

 

So yes they should have got access to Beta versions but that is still not a garantee that the issue would have been avoided in terms of developing the drivers as who knows at what point in Mavericks build the drivers broke.

 

While Apple is indeed well known for being slow with certificates...that was not the point. The point was we were told for weeks that 'the problem is resolved. We have the new drivers. We are just waiting for Apple to issue a certificate.' Yet.....what they released (ostensibly after getting an Apple certificate for it) was a noisy and buggy bit of 'betaware'. And then they claimed that they are now working on THOSE problems. Clearly...the problem was NOT resolved. They did NOT have good and useable drivers in hand. Waiting for Apple was NOT the issue. ...and they obviously knew it and chose to spin us all yet again.

With respect ... perhaps the Macs they have for testing havn't shown issues with the (new) drivers.

 

I do not feel any of us deserve to be spun...or just plain flat out lied to.

I am wary of your use of the term "lied to" in this instance - unless you have evidence of lies being told.

 

I also feel that it is cheap, sleazy, and all to indicative of the sort of company W4S actually is for them to negligently allow this to happen and then tell you 'Gee, sorry your DAC is a brick....but we'd like to turn a profit on your troubles. Why don't you just give us MORE money.'

Yes that was a very cynical move on W4S's part.

 

And, as for ' without being sure that drivers will work ' Not possible in this instance as W4S could not be bothered to post on their website or any other that their drivers weren't compatible. It took a telephone call from one of our local users, AFTER the crap had hit the fan, to get them to make such disclosures.

 

Too little...too late....too bad. But....we'd love it if you gave us more money.

Again I agree

 

Anyway I've stated my opinion on the matter and will leave it at that. You are annoyed that your DAC no longer works (to the best of it's capabilities) now you've installed a new Operating System.

 

Eloise

[dgilz]

Yet.....what they released (ostensibly after getting an Apple certificate for it) was a noisy and buggy bit of 'betaware'. And then they claimed that they are now working on THOSE problems. Clearly...the problem was NOT resolved. They did NOT have good and useable drivers in hand. Waiting for Apple was NOT the issue. ...and they obviously knew it and chose to spin us all yet again.

 

Still don't know what you are talking about, my mac mini works fine with the beta driver. I don't mean your problems are not real, but may be related to your installation instead of the driver (I'm actually trying to help if it can give you some fresh ideas).

I have a couple of friends on Mavericks and using the beta driver without problems. I know this for sure because they rely on me for technical support, since their English skills are even poorer than mine, and some of them don't even get how to update their software properly !

[ckpiv]

ST,

 

I understand your frustration. However the W4S Dac 2 has several connection options of which the optical is the easiest/cheapest to implement as a short term solution. This has been mentioned a couple of times in prior post but you have apparently rejected this advice as a short term fix. in addition W4S has posted short term fix with their beta USB drivers which I have found to work quite well - no noise as you claim. Plus, the fact that you apparently did not do your due diligence before you upgraded OS X and at the very least have a reliable backup to roll back to in case of problems is on you. Everyone has some responsibility in this issue, not just W4S. To continue with your vitriol remarks is serving no purpose, becoming boorish and down right slanderous.

 

Chuck

[NOMBEDES]

ST,

 

I understand your frustration. However the W4S Dac 2 has several connection options of which the optical is the easiest/cheapest to implement as a short term solution. This has been mentioned a couple of times in prior post but you have apparently rejected this advice as a short term fix. in addition W4S has posted short term fix with their beta USB drivers which I have found to work quite well - no noise as you claim. Plus, the fact that you apparently did not do your due diligence before you upgraded OS X and at the very least have a reliable backup to roll back to in case of problems is on you. Everyone has some responsibility in this issue, not just W4S. To continue with your vitriol remarks is serving no purpose, becoming boorish and down right slanderous.

 

Chuck

 

 

 

ONE: W4S should have noted the OSX 10.9 problems and placed a warning notice on their website the same day the problems surfaced.

 

TWO: W4S should hire a better developer.

 

THREE: Spending $1200 odd dollars for an upgrade (se) is not a fix for poor communication skills or poor driver development.

 

I have found the BETA USB driver to be substandard. I now use TOs-link with the W4S DAC2.

[Simon Templar]

Simon, I find it very rule for you to quote part of my post while ignoring that the other part of my post actually agreed with you some what - I said that "I think it is fair to accuse Wyred4Sound (along with Chord, M2Tech and others who have had the same issue) of laziness and/or apathy for not being more pro-active in letting their users know there was a problem within 24 hours of them becoming aware of it - many of the companies affected are direct sales so they should have email addresses for the affected customers."

 

 

You stated clearly that you agreed with me. As such I did not feel it necessary to comment on that part of your post...and therefore saw no reason to quote it either. Quoting three pages of a post in order to comment upon only a sentence or three is pointless and wastes bandwidth. There was no 'rule'-ness (nor rudeness, which I presume is what you were actually trying to say.)

 

 

You agreed. I could tell easily that you agreed. And I am quite sure everyone else who read it could have easily seen that for themselves. This is great...as I am sure there are a great number who share our stand on this. However, as such, it didn't occur to me that you would want that to be acknowledged.

 

So...just for you....I hereby officially agree that you agreed.

 

 

 

I am wary of your use of the term "lied to" in this instance - unless you have evidence of lies being told.

 

Be as wary as you wish. The fact remains that W4S posted frequently on a number of venues....not to mention email to many users including myself...that they had the problem solved, the new drivers were in hand, whilst blaming Apple for being slow to issue their certificate for it.

 

But...what they ultimately later released was, by their own admission, Betaware. Betaware which they also admitted at the outset to be noisy and buggy in all applications other than in conjunction with Audirvanna. At least THAT part was the truth....it is indeed quite noisy as well as having other problems.

 

This betaware also needed an Apple certificate and we apparently had no trouble getting that.

 

No...it is quite clear that we did NOT have the problem solved and we did NOT have good and useable drivers in hand. Claiming otherwise was nothing less than spin. It was a lie, pure and simple. One designed to pacify the unwashed masses.

 

And, here we are....nearly three weeks on with nothing new. Now we are teetering on the precipice of two months since this fiasco began. And all W4S has actually been able to show for it is false claims, outright mistruths, and a substandard and noisy beta driver. Not to mention a sleazy attempt to turn a profit on the troubles of the people whom they have harmed. And not even a discounted profit either. No...we want our full profit margin from your misery.

 

Yes, you can get TOSLink optical out of the Macs' headphone jack but its jitter performance is nothing too special as it is driven by the Macs' built-in output. Don't know about anyone else's ears, but mine are quite sensitive to jitter and I find this arrangement to be equally as substandard.

 

Also, the maximum sample rate will be that of the built-in output, and so you are going to be limited by that, rather than by what the optical input of your W4S supports. I think some Macs do support 176.4 and 192. Some don't even make it past 96.

 

No...optical is not a long term fix. It is a band-aid at best. Unless, of course, the resolving capabilities of your system aren't sufficient for this to present itself above the noise floor. And, if you happen to be in that situation, then I guess you CAN go purchase a TOSLink cable and have a nice day.

 

 

ONE: W4S should have noted the OSX 10.9 problems and placed a warning notice on their website the same day the problems surfaced.

 

TWO: W4S should hire a better developer.

 

THREE: Spending $1200 odd dollars for an upgrade (se) is not a fix for poor communication skills or poor driver development.

 

I have found the BETA USB driver to be substandard......

 

 

I just thought this part DID bear repeating. It is the best and most succinct abstract of the situation at hand.

 

 

 

 

....sT

[dgilz]

Well, in the meantime I am enjoying my music with my mac mini on Mavericks, using USB on my DAC2, effortlessly.

 

Usually Frenchmen are known for whining, in this precise case I haven't anything to add. At all.

[Simon Templar]

Now more than two months after the release of Mavericks....

 

 

Still nothing of any substance from W4S.

 

 

 

It would seem clear that original DAC2 owners have been abandoned. Apparently we are supposed to be happy with noisy half-assed 'beta' drivers they released awhile back along with a whole lot of spin.

 

 

To be sure, an expensive lesson I will not soon forget. Anyone want to buy a doorstop?

 

 

 

 

 

....sT

[dgilz]

My offer is 5€ for this doorstop, I know how to make it work. ;-)

 

I'd like to help you, but I don't understand your problem : this driver works perfectly on my system, since the first day it was released.

[timber715]

I'll take it for $20.00

[dgilz]

I'll take it for $20.00

 

You're killing the market !

[Simon Templar]

Surely, these are all offers to which I will pay commensurate attention.

 

 

...sT