New 8-headphone comparison/review

[dalethorn]

I wish I was big-time. Most manufactures don't even return my calls or email.

 

They don't return mine in most cases with the major brands, but the smaller ones are much better.

[warrenpchi]

But when you're a big-time reviewer and your name indicates what you represent, that's not the same thing.

 

 

HiFiGuy? Big-time? What alternate universe did I just step into?

[dalethorn]

 

HiFiGuy? Big-time? What alternate universe did I just step into?

 

The alternate universe you just stepped into you made yourself, when you didn't read HiFiGuy's many reviews or watched the large number of video reviews he has done. That's big-time.

[warrenpchi]

The alternate universe you just stepped into you made yourself, when you didn't read HiFiGuy's many reviews or watched the large number of video reviews he has done. That's big-time.

 

Not sure I'm following you there, but I wouldn't say he's big time - at least not yet. He's got quite a few videos so he's fairly prolific. But those were made over a period of years, with a fair percentage of them being unboxings.

 

This is not to slight HiFiGuy at all. I do follow his activity and subscribe to his channel, and moreover I think he does good work. But let's be honest here, it's not like he's a Tyll Hertsens or anything.

 

I'm just pointing out that I measure big-timeyness by the amount of influence one has, and not necessarily the quantity of work one has done. Along those lines, I run into "Tyll said yadda yadda yadda..." statements quite often. But I don't think I've yet come across a "Well HiFiGuy said yadda yadda yadda" type of citation.

[dalethorn]

Not sure I'm following you there, but I wouldn't say he's big time - at least not yet. He's got quite a few videos so he's fairly prolific. But those were made over a period of years, with a fair percentage of them being unboxings.

This is not to slight HiFiGuy at all. I do follow his activity and subscribe to his channel, and moreover I think he does good work. But let's be honest here, it's not like he's a Tyll Hertsens or anything.

I'm just pointing out that I measure big-timeyness by the amount of influence one has, and not necessarily the quantity of work one has done. Along those lines, I run into "Tyll said yadda yadda yadda..." statements quite often. But I don't think I've yet come across a "Well HiFiGuy said yadda yadda yadda" type of citation.

 

Actually quite a few of those were made in recent months. And while I understand your comparison in the absolute sense of numbers, you might be missing the bigger picture of just how influence plays out. While Tyll's videos have gotten more views than mine for example, my forum reviews outscore his consistently. Over a period of time, if HiFiGuy keeps publishing and establishes a core audience, his influence in that area will be greater than Tyll's, which is unfocused. If any of my criticisms here seem negative, I just want to make it clear that when we wander down the non-hifi path with these fashion components, we will lose in the end while the manufacturers of the junk items will just move on to newer crappier stuff, and they'll get people with no scruples to give their products a good review. One thing that can help distinguish a good reviewer from a big-number reviewer is simple truth. Instead of calling (for example) a Shure 940 a "poor" headphone and leaving the reader wondering what the heck was that about, it's better to be honest and state your objections. The honest reviewer will outlast the fashion guys in the end.

[warrenpchi]

Okay, but following that path of logic pretty much leads to one simple conclusion... you've gotta post more videos. Well maybe not you specifically as I'm not trying to place the burden on you, but a reviewer with a truth-over-hype perspective and reputation. I mean, it's not as if there is a way to induce negative views on YT. So in the end, content must be contested with more/different content right?

[dalethorn]

Okay, but following that path of logic pretty much leads to one simple conclusion... you've gotta post more videos. Well maybe not you specifically as I'm not trying to place the burden on you, but a reviewer with a truth-over-hype perspective and reputation. I mean, it's not as if there is a way to induce negative views on YT. So in the end, content must be contested with more/different content right?

 

If you read the book Propaganda by Ed Bernays (written in the 1920's), you'll see from that and the commentary that it's really the basis for modern publishing and Public Relations. So in a sense, we can't really compete with the big organizations on their terms. Hi-fi is a narrow market, and even a lot of that, particularly hi-fi publishing, is big-corporate which has a lot of negatives to go with it. So the only real solution I think is to be aware of group-think, think for yourself, and stay focused.

[warrenpchi]

So the only real solution I think is to be aware of group-think, think for yourself, and stay focused.

 

Fair enough, but I still think the you-doing-more-videos idea has some merit - hint, hint. =D

[dalethorn]

Fair enough, but I still think the you-doing-more-videos idea has some merit - hint, hint. =D

 

There are things I'm interested in that will fit in my budget, such as the new Philips M1 that is so delayed in the U.S. but it's been available in Europe for months. The new Beyer DTX501p I want when it's available. I was looking at the Beyer T90, but the tests of other full size Beyers show a big peak around 8 to 9 khz, and I can't use anything like that. After the Pioneer thing I'm not exactly looking for suggestions, although some suggestions like the ATH M50 and Dragonfly DAC have worked out well.

[warrenpchi]

There are things I'm interested in that will fit in my budget, such as the new Philips M1 that is so delayed in the U.S.

 

Hey that would make for an interesting video right there, some Fidelio ecosystem coverage. I would think that there are more than a few L1 owners that would be interested in a more portable variant.

[dalethorn]

Hey that would make for an interesting video right there, some Fidelio ecosystem coverage. I would think that there are more than a few L1 owners that would be interested in a more portable variant.

 

The L1 is that rarest of headphones which has hefty bass to satisfy one taste, and near-perfect high fidelity or neutral (but still strong) bass with i-device bass reduction. I think it would be nothing less than a miracle to get that with an on-ear portable. I've been through quite a few already - Phiaton 400, Klipsch Image One, Philips Stretch, Bose QC15 and AE2, Sennheiser PX100ii, maybe a few more. The only one of those I really liked was the Phiaton MS400, which was very mellow and pleasant to use as a portable.

 

The biggest problem with reviews as I see it is demonstrated in these headphones I mentioned. Few if any reviewers are able to compare any of them to a reference standard, even if that reference standard isn't perfect (and it doesn't have to be perfect). It's the only reliable way I have to describe how they're going to sound, but of course, the potential customers would have to have some idea of what the reference sounds like, or what "neutral" sounds like. If that seems like a problem, it's not nearly as bad a problem as having no reference, or a hundred references that don't correlate to anything.

 

Amplifiers, in spite of sounding "different" from each other, still have a flat signature from 20 hz to 20 khz with a reasonable load, but headphones vary wildly, which is why references are so badly needed.

[jhwalker]

And I'm sorry that you're not getting the message here. When you do so many reviews on this and other forums, and then you knowingly recommend a very lo-fi headphone to a person you have argued with at length over such matters, it can only mean one of two things: Either it's an expensive joke, or you have very poor judgement about hi-fi gear.

 

Interesting - the Pioneer got a rave review in Stereophile this month, as well.

[HiFiInsider]

Interesting - the Pioneer got a rave review in Stereophile this month, as well.

 

Do you have a link to the review?

[jhwalker]

Do you have a link to the review?

 

Just came out in print, so won't be online for a while. But here's a sample from the article:

 

"In many respects, the SE-MJ591s came close to the sound of the best full-size headphones I've tried. Their overall resolution is superb. The midrange is a s smooth as any headphones I have. The treble is sweet. The sound is spacious, in the way the best headphones are".

 

and

 

"There's no reason to turn in my wooden Audio-Technica ATH-W3000ANV headphones, which retail for $1299.95, and which I love for many of the same reasons I favor the Pioneers: delicacy, definition and detail, a stunning midrange. But I'll be listening just as much to the SE-MJ591s . . . "

 

- Sam Tellig, Stereophile, ​September 2012

[dalethorn]

Interesting - the Pioneer got a rave review in Stereophile this month, as well.

 

I read that review. One of the old guys. Generally Stereophile refers headphones exclusively to Innerfidelity, certainly for all discussion. So it was doubly fascinating that the senior editors would tell me to stop posting the individual reviews on the Stereophile headphone forum, because it was discouraging discussion there (??), a discussion they were referring to Innerfidelity anyway. This gets more interesting all the time. And J. Gordon Holt's Stereophile philosophy is growing fainter as well.

[HiFiInsider]

Just came out in print, so won't be online for a while. But here's a sample from the article:

 

"In many respects, the SE-MJ591s came close to the sound of the best full-size headphones I've tried. Their overall resolution is superb. The midrange is a s smooth as any headphones I have. The treble is sweet. The sound is spacious, in the way the best headphones are".

 

and

 

"There's no reason to turn in my wooden Audio-Technica ATH-W3000ANV headphones, which retail for $1299.95, and which I love for many of the same reasons I favor the Pioneers: delicacy, definition and detail, a stunning midrange. But I'll be listening just as much to the SE-MJ591s . . . "

 

- Sam Tellig, Stereophile, ​September 2012

 

Thank you! That's more love than I gave it.

[dalethorn]

Thank you! That's more love than I gave it.

 

I don't know what standards Sam Tellig goes by, but any (and I repeat, any) high fidelity standards that have ever been expressed in the past 40 years would definitely exclude a transducer with such an extreme (and I do mean extreme) lack of highs. Now if I'm wrong and the Pioneer has even remotely normal highs, then my sample (which was working perfectly) was way off of other samples in freq. response. Which then suggests poor quality control. You can look at this sideways or upside down if you want, but until someone says that several samples agree in response, and the highs are down only 'x' number of decibels at 8, 10, 12 khz etc., I say it's a very bad headphone, for listening to high quality recordings. I saw only one test curve, and the highs in that curve were almost off the chart.

[HiFiInsider]

Another pro review on the 591. I will read it later today.

 

Review: Pioneer SE-MJ591 Headphone | Sound and Vision Magazine

[dalethorn]

Another pro review on the 591. I will read it later today.

Review: Pioneer SE-MJ591 Headphone | Sound and Vision Magazine

 

This was a bizarre review. "Lack of bass, and attenuated treble that was less noticeable because of the lack of bass." Quote approximate.

 

I get the nagging feeling that the sudden reduction of price from $300 to ~$200 signifies more than just a competitive move. I think this item has seen some kind of major production change at Pioneer's OEM or whoever produces it, and the quality control is all over the place.

 

I've listened to the Beats models at the Apple store, and while my impressions weren't exactly positive, none of the Beats sounded like cheap toys. All of them had significant output in the lows and highs, and tonal qualities that would be improved by some rebalancing of the frequency response curve, using EQ etc. But the SE-MJ591 I bought sounded terrible, like it was dead. No life at all. And it wasn't defective - both earpieces had the same sound and there wasn't anything to suggest electronics problems.

 

It's very rare to see any discussion here about QC problems and sample-to-sample differences, but this item should get more of that.

[warrenpchi]

Wait, so on that note (and this is something I've been thinking about for a while now), what would be a good (and relatively cheap) pair of cans that ALL rookie audiophiles should own as a reference point?

 

I'm penning a review atm, and I also agree that it would be nice if everyone owned at least one unit in common so that comparisons could be more easily made and understood.

 

HD 280 Pro maybe? They're pretty economical.

[warrenpchi]

Interesting - the Pioneer got a rave review in Stereophile this month, as well.

 

Just came out in print, so won't be online for a while. But here's a sample from the article:

 

"In many respects, the SE-MJ591s came close to the sound of the best full-size headphones I've tried. Their overall resolution is superb. The midrange is as smooth as any headphones I have. The treble is sweet. The sound is spacious, in the way the best headphones are".

 

- Sam Tellig, Stereophile, ​September 2012

 

Methinks he likes them. Though that doesn't top Tom Andry's review (excerpt below). WARNING: dalethorn is about to have a conniption fit!

"The Pioneer SE-MJ591 Stereo Headphones are, hands down, the best sounding earphones I've ever had the pleasure of testing. The imaging is phenomenal and rivals my experiences with $20k a pair electrostatic speakers. The sound quality is rich and vibrant and, if you are anything like me, you'll start rediscovering your music collection. They are designed for both critical listening and portability, making them perfect for multiple applications. While they'll reveal all the flaws in your poorly recorded/encoded music, they'll also reveal all the beauty in the high-quality recordings... if you care about sound quality, you'll likely feel it is money well spent."

- Tom Andry

 

So it was doubly fascinating that the senior editors would tell me to stop posting the individual reviews on the Stereophile headphone forum, because it was discouraging discussion there (??)

 

Uh, WTF?

 

Thank you! That's more love than I gave it.

 

Yup, you only ranked it #1 in a 3-way portable shootout. These guys want to make it the mother of their children.

 

Now if I'm wrong and the Pioneer has even remotely normal highs, then my sample (which was working perfectly) was way off of other samples in freq. response.

 

Nope, I don't think you're unit was borked. They are not bright cans, period. They do have a strong suit, but highs aren't it. I was actually hanging out with a fellow Head-Fier yesterday and since I had them with me, he auditioned them. My Zune 30 was the source and no amp was available, but he said that the SQ was worth about $50. Build quality was worth maybe another $100. He didn't like them very much.

[dalethorn]

Wait, so on that note (and this is something I've been thinking about for a while now), what would be a good (and relatively cheap) pair of cans that ALL rookie audiophiles should own as a reference point?

I'm penning a review atm, and I also agree that it would be nice if everyone owned at least one unit in common so that comparisons could be more easily made and understood.

HD 280 Pro maybe? They're pretty economical.

 

The only headphone I can think of that's widely available at a low price that's well regarded as a high fidelity (more or less) item is the ATH M50.

[warrenpchi]

The only headphone I can think of that's widely available at a low price that's well regarded as a high fidelity (more or less) item is the ATH M50.

 

Okay wait, quick question here. If we had to take into account that not everyone has access to iDevice bass reduction (like me for example), would it still be the ATH-M50? =)

[dalethorn]

Methinks he likes them. Though that doesn't top Tom Andry's review (excerpt below). WARNING: dalethorn is about to have a conniption fit!

It's OK to get emotional about your music, but not logical to get emotional about gear.

 

The Stereophile chief said I could put new reviews into a "blog" where each review would be in the same post as the others and external links to those reviews would no longer go to each review, but only to the "blog" post. IOW, the functionality that exists now would end. Since I haven't posted any new reviews presumably what's there will stay as is.

 

And no, I reject the notion that the Pioneer is "not bright". I have lots of headphones that are not bright, and a few (B&W P3, H/K CL, Bose OE2) that are fairly dull, rolled off highs. But those 3 are far superior to the Pioneer in high frequency response. Far, far superior. And as a comparison to the 3 non-bright I mentioned, the Shure 1840, Philips L1, ATH M50, Phiaton MS400, Philips Stretch, B&W P5, Sennheiser PX200ii, Klipsch Image One, and a few others, are screamingly bright compared to the 3 that are vastly brighter than the Pioneer. The Pioneer is so dull it's on another planet. Execrable is the word I'd use.

 

But if any of those reviewers who found it good are credible, then that says to me there's good evidence of a big QC problem. So far, nobody is saying, right?

[dalethorn]

Okay wait, quick question here. If we had to take into account that not everyone has access to iDevice bass reduction (like me for example), would it still be the ATH-M50? =)

 

I don't use bass reduction or any EQ with the M50. The bass is slightly boosted, but very nice in my view. By contrast, most headphones that are bassy are moreso in the upper bass, while the M50 is moreso in the lower bass. That's really rare.